What's the attraction?

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I agree with you it is hard to understand and we will not get to the point of understanding if we blind ourselves to this all too common reality. Thanks for taking the trouble to contribute.

a reply to: eletheia
You may well have hit on a central issue with your reply. It seems that to many women grow up believing the fairy tales they got told as girls and end up believing happiness is their birthright merely because they are female. No wonder then, that we see such disillusionment when girls are growing up into women who have a massively unrealistic entitlement complex. Another first rate contribution. My thanks to you for it.

All the replies to this thread have been thoughtful and interesting. The insights have certainly been an eye opener for me and I hope that everyone who contributed has found the replies to the OP as interesting as I have. Thanks to you all for making my thread one I am proud to have started.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

A lefty getting involved with any fundamentalist religious person, seems entirely bizarre to me.

On the face of it, you would have thought that these individuals could not possibly have less in common. And for the record, I am talking ONLY about a situation in which a hardcore lefty, is involved with the worst sort of fundamentalist, radical, woman beating, probable terror sympathiser. I am not talking about a hardcore lefty getting involved with a peaceful, chilled out, and decent person, who happens to worship in the Muslim fashion. Regardless of witless knuckle dragging to the contrary, these are separate things.

Of course, the sort of predatory behaviour which is common to all abusive individuals, regardless of faith, can often include a chameleon like capacity to become whatever they have to become, in order to win trust. This facade falls away eventually, sometimes very quickly, depending on how well they may have baited whatever trap they lay for their prey.

a reply to: CulturalResilience

OP you're questioning the female mind here , and stereotyping immigrant or foreign male behaviours in regard to muslims particularly . But that's ok to outline cultural differences , while your average christian id is not necessarily christian , just culturally linked , not religious .

But you need to focus on the male factors here perhaps to understand better . There has been this problem in our country where underaged white girls have been targeted by muslim/foreign/immigrant men , drawn into vice situations , in particular by these non-white types , usually from within town centres . You have to question , why would they go with these men ?
I think the answer is because they are pushing hard to get them , using devious and underhanded techniques to gain some trust and then abuse begins . These foreign predators are often taxi-drivers or similarly employed in city/town centres . I don't think it matters to the girls what their cultural id is , its more that people with that other id are the ones who seek them out . That's how they end up with them . Those 'foreign' men have less to lose and more to gain than those otherwise normally resident . We've raised up gullible women in this country , who dont know the difference between truth and lies , or fair intent from mal-intentions . You can't blame them , and its why parents all over have had the heartbreak of daughters being led away by proper scum , into drugs and vice from an early age . Its fully these predatory bastards who have messed with their minds , and unfortunately even many grown women are fools , often complete fools . Not their fault but there's been a plan behind it , more often than not .
Less to lose , more to gain , they have pushed harder , cheated more deviously and so gained result of having perfectly good women eating out of their hands . Its not racist to say this if it is true , and it is disgusting none the less

a reply to: TrueBrit
Do you think there has been a failure among western men that has contributed to what we are discussing and/or a similar failing the part of western men in the face of what we are now seeing?

a reply to: ZIPMATT
Too to True Brit and Zipmatt. Thank you both for adding your thoughts to thread.

I think the question I asked TrueBrit in response to his contribution is also one I would very much like to hear your thoughts on. I am English and live in England so I know the facts of what are referring to and the bearing they have on this discussion and I appreciate you brining them to the thread. I would like to ask you what responsibility, if any, you think western men have regarding the issue in question and its consequences.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
a reply to: CreationBro

There is no doubting the part feelings play in what we are discussing. The question I would like to hear your thoughts on is what stirs those feelings to the degree that leads to the sort of thing we are seeing from the demographic in question.

Thanks for taking part.

Excellent question. Why do we feel what we feel?

Linking thought to feeling, linking sensory input to feeling (what we see, hear, etc.)

Well, as im sure youre familiar with the phrase (women love to use this one)...its complicated.

Elements of Freudian concepts, masochistic tendencies, stockholm syndrome-esque tendencies, misdirected empathy, lack of foresight, delusion, and the excitement of risk or danger, i think play a role.

Possible psychosis? Absolutely. Makes me wonder about the continuity of the human race.

Im hopeful though.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
a reply to: ZIPMATT
Too to True Brit and Zipmatt. Thank you both for adding your thoughts to thread.

I think the question I asked TrueBrit in response to his contribution is also one I would very much like to hear your thoughts on. I am English and live in England so I know the facts of what are referring to and the bearing they have on this discussion and I appreciate you brining them to the thread. I would like to ask you what responsibility, if any, you think western men have regarding the issue in question and its consequences.

Well as I put , but the other way round , western men have less to gain and more to lose - being the english at home . They're more likely to assume that love marriage and romance are what they should aspire to , and probably expected by their at home families . I rarely do blame or accuse of failure , partly as I'm a fair person who sees the failures of education as we know it to blame . It s a very difficult question and hard to generalise , against the specificness of 'foreign' attitudes . And of course not all dforeign men are predatory abusers .

I would introduce the element of 'pro-discrimination' into a deeper study if you do one , as this policy is going to have had some bad effects on men and women of the West . Bear in mind that conscious efforts have been made to water down and delegitimise English traditions and traits , while we've been 'expected' and heavily so , to just accept multicultural influences and unwanted un-necessary mass immigration into our society : often single men. Western men did not need that which weakened them and turned rascism itself on to whites , in their own country . Western men didn't need the types of feminism which has been forced on them either , examples at family courts . They're generally brought up to take responsibility for children which spring from relationships , but often face spirit-breaking attitudes from women who assume they are correct to control and domineer them . That's not equality it is forcing the men to become weakened . Others may have been born into quite different circumstances , not care about offsprings, and clean up against the afraid . Maybe there's a strong point here - both women and foreigners have gained unfair advantages , against the men of the Western world . Maybe both see them as weak and unwarranted unless endowed with some pseudo-power like money or authority .

While we can't now reverse the disaster that's been forced onto our society , then yes Western men should take responsibilty to draw their attitudes level with the circumstances . Though whether they can do that or know how is another matter . What has happened as far as I can see is they've taken easier ways out , into objectifying women , loveless and or childless relationships , or no relationships at all . Some or quite a fair few of these millenials as they're called have reached a ripe age and are still virgins (!) I'd be blaming Blair's Labour government for some of this . Stupid , middle-class pc teachers for some of it too . There is not room for bitterness , life is too short , but the pitfalls are many . Playing the victim never washes with women either . Am thinking but no solutions for them as yet , dating websites are often akin to stalkers too , you'd pay for miserale lostness amid missing informations , and the dynamic of relationships in general isn't set towards permanence , trust or sharing anymore .

a reply to: CulturalResilience

I do not think it is nearly as simple as that.

I think society has some failings, particularly with regard to the way relationships are referred to in popular culture, which results in NO ONE knowing where they are supposed to be, knowing how to value others properly, or enough, or at all in some cases.

There is little stability in many western nations at the moment, things changing greatly, rapidly, and not always for the better. Work, law, freedoms, all these things are subject to massive tectonic movement at the moment, and people are aware that with nearly no warning, they could find themselves out of a job for reasons having nothing to do with their performance, the law may be used to commit an injustice against one, without one ever having put a foot wrong, and freedoms may be taken away from one at any time, for no acceptable reason, and without one giving any permission for that to happen, in the slighest.

Add into that the fact that the media are constantly displaying unrealistic models of what male and female mean as concepts, leave alone how to go about being "good" examples of these things. Society, not just males, or females, or any other gender you could mention for that matter, is not in a good state, and has not been for some considerable time. And it has to be said, placing the "blame" for this state of affairs is far from a simple matter. It is, of course, on the individual to maintain decent standards of behaviour, with or without law to enforce those standards. But society as a wider entity needs to support good conduct, rather than rewarding those who are not behaving in a healthy and well adjusted manner. But that is not the way of things. Greed is considered a route to success, compassion is seen as weakness, dispassionate and cold disposition appears as strength, warmth and moral foundation is misunderstood as a limitation, not a virtue.

These things did not happen simply because men decided they ought to. These things happened because society teaches those who are a part of it, the wrong lessons about life, and how to live it. Between the media giving people a false impression of the world before they ever see any of it, and the governments and powerbrokers in the world increasingly forcing those at the sharp end, into psychologically dangerous situations, there are not too many ways in which the situation might be rectified, without a major paradigm shift in the way we live. It is little wonder that some men simply fail to understand their responsibilities correctly, little wonder that some women cannot help but reward undesirable men, for their terrible behaviour, little wonder that their children wind up messed up unless they happen to be very, VERY lucky, continuing the cycle again and again, in an ever tightening spiral of miscommunication, misplaced loyalties and wasted time.

The temporary nature of stability in the lives of the citizenry, does not allow for a great amount of time to be devoted to contemplation of self, and ones place within the greater scheme of the species, the world, the universe. With more hours of the day devoted to unfulfilling employment, which all too often pays far too little to actually function ones existence, how can the common person in the street be expected either to pay adequate mind to the far future, to their behaviour in abstract or objectively, or for that matter, do anything much other than collapse into slumber the moment they arrive home, if they are lucky enough to have one of their own?

The situation is dire, and complicated.

Well the conclusion to draw from this thread seems to be that there are a lot of different reasons for the what is happening among the demographic and no obvious single solution. It has been very interesting to hear the thoughts of everyone on the subject, so once again thanks to everyone who took the trouble to contribute.

I would also just like to say that I very much appreciate the fact that this difficult and controversial discussion took place in a very measured way. It would have been all too easy for this thread to have degenerated in a lunchroom food fight, but once again ATS members have shown themselves to be skilful, analytical and deserving of the high regard in which this site is held.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

I agree with you it is hard to understand and we will not get to the point of understanding if we blind ourselves to this all too common reality. Thanks for taking the trouble to contribute.

It's a good topic, and others have added some valid points as well, such as the fact that some women seem to prefer the bad guys, no matter where they are from. It's a crazy world!!

I couldn't find a link to the story you are describing. Could you point out if one of those are the link and I just somehow mis-read? They seem to be different stories?

The thing is, this description seems "off" to me. There are some elements that make my internal BS alarms go off.
Not that that is a definitive call- just saying it makes me want to look further before making any judgement.

originally posted by: CulturalResilience
'The first two weeks were quite the love story. I observed that he was drinking heavily, and called him an “alky,” but it was just a joke at first.'

He was drinking alcohol... but this says he is muslim ...? I know a lot of muslims and none will touch alcohol, it is against the religion and they don't have the same idea of individual liberty as Americans- peers do not hesitate to speak up or act when one is transgressing their laws. It would be ... difficult.. for a person to get away with drinking a lot in the midst of a muslim community. It just sounds somewhat... questionable.

That"strange feeling" she is describing seems to be indicative an increasingly common North/South disconnect among the modern western liberal women, who despite over a half a century of struggling for equality with men, finds being objectified and belittled by a foreign man bypasses all feminist indoctrination in the brain, and causes an unfamiliar and, not unpleasant tingling sensation, further below. This is further evidenced by the fact that she stayed with the man for more than two months, experiencing numerous episodes of his charming and enriching vibrancy.

I am wondering- you suggest she found this sexually arousing - I wanted to find the article to see if that is what she described? Because it seems really "off" to me. I have been in an abusive relationship, I have known many women who were.... and such behaviors were not sexually arousing at all. That just sounds "off" too.

Women who get involved in abusive relationships do not generally do so because they are sexually turned on by being abused. I have heard men make such conclusions before but never have I heard (or experienced) a woman make such an assertion.

The prime draw towards such men (muslim or not!) is as others have pointed out - the "healer" mentality. The Beauty and the Beast" idea- in which love heals all hurts and transforms. Often these men play upon that healer drive through claims of being oppressed or victimized themselves. They strike at the sympathetic chords of the women early on in this way, claiming "if only I could be saved from this prosecution, I would be completely different. My true beautiful kind and gentle heart would emerge from this beastly scary exterior appearence."

I think this linked, not to sexual drive, as you suggest, but maternal instinct. Mothering young children, these drives ARE often effective- choosing not to focus on undesirable behavior and instead focus on and encourage desirable behavior does change behavior when you have toddler trying out different behaviors or actions and seeking attention from their mother.
This instinct does not have the same effect upon adults who have already deeply conditioned behaviors. It is a case of the maternal instinct being used in situations it is not appropriate.

Young children are still forming and judging them upon their behaviors would be a mistake. If every mother walked off and left her two year old forever because he threw a fit and started kicking her because he didn't get his chocolate ice cream then none of us would be here - we would have all been abandoned early on before we were capable of living autonomously.

This is the source of some of the seemingly contradictory feelings and actions of a woman in an abusive relationship. They will tend to disregard the behaviors as a false representation of the real person, that can and will be cast off eventually to reveal the real person (if she sticks in there and loves him enough).

There is the deeper layer of women who get sucked into the savior/healer role with abusive man, also pointed out-
Often a part of them feels that they are victimized, prosecuted or oppressed, and wish to be saved through being loved and encouraged positively. It seems to me all humans have that instinct to give to others what we ourselves would like to receive ourselves. I don't believe the Golden Rule is something to strive to do... I think it is more like a law of behavior that is always in effect and we could do well to be aware of it.

What happens in some abusive relationships, is that eventually, through the realization that no amount of love, tolerance, forgiveness and encouragement will heal or change the other person, she comes to the realization that it wouldn't help HER either. Only he can choose to change and make it happen alone... only I can choose to save myself too.

Those are what I would consider the "successful" abusive relationships. Where the negative experience becomes a catalyst for healing - at least for the victim. They get up and leave and start saving themselves, instead of waiting for Prince Charming, or being Belle for a Beast.

The more a woman with this problem hears western men doing exaggerated hate talk about Muslim men, the more their savior instincts are stimulated. It paints the muslims as being unfairly prosecuted. Not ALL muslim men can be monsters! Surely there are some good humans in that generalization, who can be saved !

A funny thing I have observed in less dire circumstances (like in social groups in school, or at the office) is that people who want to turn everyone else against an individual must be very careful not to go too far with their hostility. As soon as it gets too extreme the scale tips the other way and sympathy for the individual is stimulated instead.

LOL- I would never do this, I don't like being part of gang style hatred campaigns, but I watch that some do and some are better at it than others. The ones who are very good at it are careful not to cross that line and sabotage their efforts.

Lastly, in terms of the dynamics of inter-cultural relations- I married a foreigner (who is not abusive!), been with him 27 years, and I can confirm that when your partner comes from a different culture, you cannot judge too quickly! You learn to question your own reactions and analyze deeply before jumping to any conclusion. Misunderstandings are always a threat to the relationship, and if you don't learn to stop- quiet the reflexes- think- talk together- the relationship doesn't stand a chance.

So a woman who made the huge jump of moving to another country and investing in a relationship with a foreigner does not surprise me at all if she does that.

a reply to: Bluesma

I can't link where I am at the moment. If I remember when I'm back at home later I will.

What an interesting topic. As a woman and as a former Army captain, I've witnessed this phenomenon with both men and women and have arrived at my own conclusions.

The number one issue, and all of this is my own belief, is the demasculization of western, white males. Biology is not as "progressive" as a lot of feminists want it to be. Women are attracted to MEN who metaphorically and literally spit in the face of danger. (Not counting lesbians, of course). The average western male has been bullied into silence, and those that haven't, have already given their hearts away.

The second issue is the self esteem of a lot of feminists and social justice obsessed women. As a woman, I feel powerful in my femininity and in my draw of life. The women seeking these relationships are missing out on their place in the world. Just like weak men who lack a strong work and or fail to lead their families, these feminists have blamed all their problems on those men they fail to attract.

Within these issues is the added bonus of deception and misplaced white guilt. Of course racial relationships aren't perfect in the world but these social justice feminists, they get a "two fer" in these situations. Those seeking to come to the US or commit crimes against western values tend to be young, poor, and uneducated men. Where else can a non-sexually confident woman with poor attractive qualities to a mate meet and be romanced by a young, virile, exotic man? Then, the added bonus of sticking it to the "alt-right"- a.k.a. westernized, white, alpha males- gives them "street cred".

These relationships are doomed from the start, prior to even being considered. Lust for a tall, dark, and handsome man pales shortly after being introduced to the real world applications of "there's no difference, we're all human beings". They offer themselves up as chattel to an agenda. All of the control they claimed to have over their bodies is given up.

The subject of fairy tales has been brought up. My take on it is that they want the fairy tale but believe they don't. It's seen as beneath them to love a man who is successful. After all, doesn't his success mean a woman, the poor, persons of color, or a member of the LGBT community was overlooked? They prioritize their socio-political beliefs and mix in an unobtainable fairy tale.

Disaster.

I know this is long, but this just happened to my mother's sister. A strong feminist, she met a man online a couple of years ago. They "fell in love" quickly; within weeks, she was sending money to Pakistan. She sent him money for a plane ticket but it was "stolen". When he finally came over- yes, she brought him over- it was horrific. He was, in no way, attracted to her. She was 62 and he was 28. They had a sexual relationship but he derided her constantly. He stayed with her for a couple of weeks, then took off to who knows where. My aunt was visited by many govt agents and questioned about monies, ties, etc.

A year after this happened, she met a man online who was serving time in prison. She championed his innocence and protested outside of the jail, city hall, police stations, wherever. The cops were dirty and he was framed. He was released about 8 months after they met online. She picked him up with balloons, signs, new clothing and brought him home.

He robbed her blind that night and stole her car.

a reply to: Malraux

That is very interesting contribution. I have already read it three times over. Your participation and insight are valued.

originally posted by: Malraux
What an interesting topic. As a woman and as a former Army captain, I've witnessed this phenomenon with both men and women and have arrived at my own conclusions.
The number one issue, and all of this is my own belief, is the demasculization of western, white males. Biology is not as "progressive" as a lot of feminists want it to be. Women are attracted to MEN who metaphorically and literally spit in the face of danger. (Not counting lesbians, of course). The average western male has been bullied into silence, and those that haven't, have already given their hearts away.

Are good manners, consideration toward the opposite sex, equality and the

right to say no .... and the right in by law not to be physically assualted .....

demasculisation?

As a woman I am not attracted to the rough *me Tarzan you Jane* type of

man, I much prefer a groomed, educated man who knows where he is going

and confident in his own abilities.

The second issue is the self esteem of a lot of feminists and social justice obsessed women. As a woman,I feel powerful in my femininity and in my draw of life. The women seeking these relationships are missing out on their place in the world. Just like weak men who lack a strong work and or fail to lead their families, these feminists have blamed all their problems on those men they fail to attract.

That is the failure of women to take full advantage of the gains women who

fought in the sufferage movement for EQUALITY of the sexes gave them. These

women come from women (still passed down the generations) who believe that no

woman is complete/fulfilled without a man...

The women of today need to take advantage of the fact that "the world is their

oyster .... with or without a man!

Within these issues is the added bonus of deception and misplaced white guilt. Of course racial relationships aren't perfect in the world but these social justice feminists, they get a "two fer" in these situations. Those seeking to come to the US or commit crimes against western values tend to be young, poor, and uneducated men. Where else can a non-sexually confident woman with poor attractive qualities to a mate meet and be romanced by a young, virile, exotic man? Then, the added bonus of sticking it to the "alt-right"- a.k.a. westernized, white, alpha males- gives them "street cred".

These are women with little or no self esteem, who do not live in the real

world ..... who still believe in the fairy tale. The reality is "women want love,

men want sex."

These relationships are doomed from the start, prior to even being considered. Lust for a tall, dark, and handsome man pales shortly after being introduced to the real world applications of "there's no difference, we're all human beings". They offer themselves up as chattel to an agenda. All of the control they claimed to have over their bodies is given up.

The subject of fairy tales has been brought up. My take on it is that they want the fairy tale but believe they don't. It's seen as beneath them to love a man who is successful. After all, doesn't his success mean a woman, the poor, persons of color, or a member of the LGBT community was overlooked? They prioritize their socio-political beliefs and mix in an unobtainable fairy tale.

???

I know this is long, but this just happened to my mother's sister. A strong feminist, she met a man online a couple of years ago. They "fell in love" quickly; within weeks, she was sending money to Pakistan. She sent him money for a plane ticket but it was "stolen". When he finally came over- yes, she brought him over- it was horrific. He was, in no way, attracted to her. She was 62 and he was 28. They had a sexual relationship but he derided her constantly. He stayed with her for a couple of weeks, then took off to who knows where. My aunt was visited by many govt agents and questioned about monies, ties, etc.

A strong feminist ..... ???

Met a man on line ..... DISASTER on line can hide a multitude of sins!

Fell in love quickly ....an e. man?.... is without any substance.

Sent him money? ...... buying herself a man? or a mere male?

She was 62 he was 28 ....old enough to be his mother or at a push his grandmother

was she mad enough to believe "happily ever after?" you cant legislate for stupidity.

A year after this happened, she met a man online who was serving time in prison. She championed his innocence and protested outside of the jail, city hall, police stations, wherever. The cops were dirty and he was framed. He was released about 8 months after they met online. She picked him up with balloons, signs, new clothing and brought him home.
He robbed her blind that night and stole her car.

A glutton for punishment .... some people will never learn...you cant teach stupid

This alpha/beta obsession drives me nuts. It's so whiny.

Look, humans are mammals. We are not exempt from biology or a millennia of collective cultural/sexual consciousness. It's so arrogant that anyone thinks we have evolved so much that all of our do-good PC crap will overcome human history in just one generation.

This girl might simply be a victim of pheromones. Swarthy Muslim man probably didn't bathe as much as his American competition. Sure, she might feel herself more rational than that but she is not in charge of her own body chemistry. Ask any menopausal woman.

a reply to: eletheia

Thanks for really taking the time to read that and consider it. For awhile, this topic has bothered me. When speaking on this issue, I wasn't talking about ALL women but examples like my aunt and that given in the OP.

You state that you aren't attracted to the rough type but like confident men. That's what I mean- confidence is manly and, for the most part, women like men.

Also, the OP was discussing the hypocrisy of the woman who, in the face of pure misogyny, stays quiet, despite proclaiming Feminism. My aunt was such a woman: hated the police until she needed them; hated men until she felt lonely; hated corporations until the price got too high; demanded universal healthcare but didn't even want to pay for her own; derided women who stayed home with their children, yet drew a "disability" check without being disabled.....and on and on.

It's a farce and a slap in the face of true equality.

Men and women are equal but DIFFERENT, at least that's the hope for mankind. It's strange to me why ultra-leftists utilize that very fact and throw it away in favor of a backwards paradigm.

Again, this is in reference to this discussion.

At the risk of repeating myself, this thread has surpassed every expectation I could have had for it. Anyone who read my OP would have seen that I had some serious concerns and reservations before starting this topic. It is extremely gratifying to see that I was wrong to think that way.

I am at work at the moment, but when I get some spare moments later I will attempt to reply to every comment.

Thank you all again.