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Where is the socialist utopia now?

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posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 11:32 AM
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Poor, poor socialist Germany ...

"Many are asking how many unemployed a democracy can actually take at a time when this democracy is fraying at the edges, with far-right parties attacking foreigners who are supposedly taking jobs from Germans,"

today.reuters.co.uk...




posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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Is there some point to this thread other then to start another liberal/consertive bashing topic?
Germany is suffering from a hang ups from the end of the iron curtain. Even if a right wing government was in power they couldnt change the fact that west Germany is more modern then the former communist east Germany.
radardog are you an American?



posted on Feb, 10 2005 @ 05:10 PM
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More ammo against the silly socialists:

" Fed up with long waits and worried about the quality of medical care, more European patients are losing faith in government-run health systems. Informed by the Internet and motivated by cheaper travel, many now seek medical care abroad and buy private health insurance. In response, some European governments are doing the unthinkable: handing parts of their public health-care systems to the private sector."

seattletimes.nwsource.com...

"The natural increase in Europe's population is slowing and may start a steep decline within a few decades, researchers say. ... In effect, the authors say, the momentum for population growth in the 15-nation European Union has flipped from positive to negative and the trend could strongly influence population numbers throughout the 21st century."

www.cbsnews.com...


Leftists in America want to act like Europe, but Europe is starting to act like America. :-P



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Oh dear, the poor EU:



The news was however worrying for the year ahead, with the European statistics office Eurostat reporting 0.2 percent GDP euro zone growth in the fourth quarter, after a July-September period that was supposed to have been the bad patch.
...
The surprisingly bad German news came in an early morning report by the Federal Statistics Office that Europe's largest economy shrank 0.2 percent in the last three months of 2004, and that output was flat in the third quarter.


edition.cnn.com...



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by radardog
Where is the socialist utopia now?


The same place the capitalist utopia goes during a depression I would imagine


I'm out of this foolsh thread.
God what a waste of points....



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Is there some point to this thread other then to start another liberal/consertive bashing topic?
Germany is suffering from a hang ups from the end of the iron curtain. Even if a right wing government was in power they couldnt change the fact that west Germany is more modern then the former communist east Germany.
radardog are you an American?

Really? Didn't the wall come down allmost 15 years ago?
And in a decade and a half the east german side couldn't modernise?
The US went into recession in 2001 and we have already begun our recovery.
The fact is a US style right wing government would have had you economy back in action 5-10 years ago. However its impossible to have a string economy when your citzens have no motivation to succeed, no ambition for the future, and thse who actually do succeed are raped by the government.
Why else do you think most major factories not to mention R&D centers are leaving germany?



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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mwm1331 you cant compare the US econmys to germany because the USA didnt suffer 40 years of communist rule. In part you are right to if you want people to work give them tax breaks. What you dont do is make people pay interest on there student loans people dont find jobs any quicker and it burdens the future of New Zealand.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 05:12 AM
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But thats the point xpert. despite numerous indcations that thier socialist approach hasn't been working over the last decade and a half the german government and the german people refuse to realise the source of thier economic woes. When you have a popualce that receives more paid vacation time than any other populace on earth, who then goes on strike to reduce the work week from 40 to 35 hours, any one with sense can see the employers are going to get fed up and move.
The problem isn't just the government its the people at large. They have been so throughly indoctrinated into socialst beliefs that they actually think the average worker should be paid as well or better than the ceo's of the companies. Well that may be a bit of an overstatment but not by much.
The simple fact is that while german workers are the most expensive, not just in terms of pay and benefits, but also in terms of taxation, they are also the least productive of any western nation.
The first sn't such a big problem all western workers are expensive, however at least americans, or britishers, also have high productivity, the germans don't.
They want to go in and work thier 7 hour work day, doing as little as possible while getting paid as much as possible and getting thier 2 months of paid vacation a year. You cant have it both ways.
The fact is the german people treat german the companies that create the jobs as either demonic capitalist feinds who exploit the noble german worker or as a host to thier parasitic economy, or both at the same time.
Is it any wonder so many corporations are fleeing germany?
One the one jhand they are villified for thier "proft lust" and the way they are "exploiting the german worker" while at the same time the government and unions do the best they can to bleed those companies for as long as they can.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 05:59 AM
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What are people in germany growing in there backyards ? You shouldnt have to go broke to get health care and an education but by the same tokin you cant have more medical benfits and work less you dont have to be a consertive to figure that out. Dont germans get overtime pay if they work longer then 8 hours?

[edit on 17-2-2005 by xpert11]



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 06:19 AM
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the only reason healthcare and education is so expensive is because of government involvement.
People need help? Fine give those with low incomes tax breaks on what they spend on healthcare, rather than the government takng thier money and others and .75 out of every dollar being wasted, let the people choose thier own plan and have the government not take the money they spend on it in the first place.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 12:44 PM
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America is almost socialist, and the Republicans do nothing about it, nor care to.

What happened to small government? Low taxes? Reasonable spending?

Toast. That's where.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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Socialist Japan takes a dive:


"With further revisions to earlier figures showing that GDP also shrank by 0.3 per cent in the third quarter, and by 0.2 per cent in the second, the news left Japan once more mired in technical recession. "
business.timesonline.co.uk...


America is very socialist leaning, and democrats outwardly want to take it that direction, while republicans inwardly do it too. Will they learn the lessons of other socialist nations?



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro
America is almost socialist, and the Republicans do nothing about it, nor care to.

What happened to small government? Low taxes? Reasonable spending?

Toast. That's where.


We agree 100% on this one, I think the reason is votes, I would like to see the government out of many things and Bush has not helped this in any way and in fact has made it worse. It is one of the major things I dislike about him but if he can get Social Security and the IRS restructured its a big start.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 02:34 AM
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When did Japan turn socialist?!



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by edsinger
We agree 100% on this one, I think the reason is votes, I would like to see the government out of many things and Bush has not helped this in any way and in fact has made it worse. It is one of the major things I dislike about him but if he can get Social Security and the IRS restructured its a big start.


Ah, we agree. It surprises me actually. I think Social Security is a minimal item alone the lines they are talking about.

Personally, I would like them to propose the idea, that all people who wish to OPT OUT of the Social Security system, could, so long as their forfeit the money already collected.

I am young enough to take advantage of something like that, and the double digit (percentage wise) collecting are killing me.

It's a common lie, that we share ANY expense with our employers. Our taxes are rebellion high.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 11:30 AM
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KrazyJethro:


Personally, I would like them to propose the idea, that all people who wish to OPT OUT of the Social Security system, could, so long as their forfeit the money already collected.

I am young enough to take advantage of something like that, and the double digit (percentage wise) collecting are killing me.

Glad your only looking at it from your perspective, because if you were looking at it from those older than you, I think you would not have said what you did.



It's a common lie, that we share ANY expense with our employers.

Whats a "common lie," KrazyJethro?



Our taxes are rebellion high.

Really? Did you have any problem with paying those "rebellion high" taxes back in previous administrations then? Or were you even working then, and as such, the issue doesn't have any relevance for you?




seekerof

[edit on 18-2-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Glad your only looking at it from your perspective, because if you were looking at it from those older than you, I think you would not have said what you did.


Think not? Well it seems to me that if even 10% of the people opted out and left their money, then part of the problem would be solved already. It's no secret that the market is better than anything the government could give you, and for those with time enough to run the gambit, we should be allowed. It is, after all, our families we are talking about. I would not suggest anything that would be overly shocking to the system, as I can't see more than about 15% bailing in the first step anyway.

We are talking about a multi step plan to renew our country, rather than simply maintain the failing status quo.




Whats a "common lie," KrazyJethro?


That we share in, or split taxes placed on earnings with our employers. Each company has a certain amount allotted to each employee regarding their worth. It is certainly higher than the pay checks we recieve, not including what the government takes from us directly.



Really? Did you have any problem with paying those "rebellion high" taxes back in previous administrations then? Or were you even working then, and as such, the issue doesn't have any relevance for you?


I'm not that young, so yes of course. Matter of fact, I served all my time under Clinton. I am not blaming Bush, it's been a product of many Liberal pow-wows over the decades.

Yet it seems not to get much better under those who are supposed to seek what I want. Smaller government, less taxes, more prudent spending.

You know I don't play to either side, and the Republicans are as guilty as the Democrats.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by boogyman
When did Japan turn socialist?!


Japan has been consided socialist and a democracy for sometime (i.e. a social democracy).

"Japan is a social democracy (like Germany) where the government provides many social services to its people. "
www.csupomona.edu...



posted on Feb, 23 2005 @ 11:31 PM
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This is a stupid topic. Its so stupid, its not even amusing.

America is hardly socialist. Is Cold War paranio still thriving or what? If you were, Bush wouldn't be in power now, would he?

Oh, where is the Capitalist Utopia now then? Eh? Megadebt is good.

And, for gods sake, where is any Utopia? None have ever existed, all systems are flawed, none will ever work properly due to the fact there will always be people fighting it and trying to make it fail. Freedom fighter/Terroist debate here.

"As long as man is man, and can think freely, Ideologies will always fail." There, i've put down my point. If im Famous, i'll damn well tie that quote to my name.


Seriously, think on it. Its true. Until we can control thought, or Robots take over ( FATAL EXCEPTION OE
), There will never be a Utopia. One can say your ideology is better, but it never is. Negative I know. But Meh.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 03:00 AM
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The U.S. started leaning in a socialist direction during and after FDR, as seen by an increase of social programs and taxes. It's not about a flawed system, but rather how various implementations of variations of the main thing (socialism) is going down hill. That's what we should pay attention to: Should the U.S. continue to lean in a socialist direction when we see everyone else who has failing?

[edit on 24-2-2005 by radardog]



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