Lucifer is Jesus Christ I get it, but Baphomet?

In order to participate in this thread one should accept the Premises ( for sake of the thread ) that Lucifer=Jesus Christ and that Baphomet ( the 19th century representation of it) does not = Satan.



I believe in a God creator of all things. For the rest I am just very curious about theology.

I get how Jesus Christ and Lucifer are the same entity in the scriptures,

it is also very explicitly said in the Catholic Exusltet Hymn sang during Easter

Flammas eius Lucifer matutinus invéniat ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occásum Christus Fílius tuus, qui, regréssus ab ínferis, humáno géneri serénus illúxit, et vivit et regnat in sæcula sæculórum.

"May the morning star find his flames,
That Lucifer who knows no setting, your son Christ,
who, once he returned from hell, shone serenely upon the human race,
and lives and rules unto perpetuity."

Although in Isaiah 14: 12-17 , if the premise that Lucifer and Christ are the same is correct, I do not understand the meaning of the last phrase:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.’ 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

What prisoners are we talking about here? And what cities did Christ overthrow?

What I can also not understand is how Lucifer is connected to Baphomet.

I thought Baphomet with the goat head and pagan symbology was connected to the idea of Satan but it seems to also not be the case.

I understand how Lucifer ( Jesus Christ) was wrongfully connected to Satan in Milton's Paradise lost

but How is Baphomet a representation of Jesus Christ (Lucifer) ? The imagery of Baphomet does not seem to fit Jesus Christ.



Thank you.

What makes you think any of them are connected to one another other than scripture?

a reply to: Golantrevize

Your first problem is the translation. Google translate has it all wrong.

Here is the correct translation;

May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.

It's a small verse from the much longer Exsultet.

en.wikipedia.org...

So, no the pope did not reference Satan.

Therefore the son of dawn in Isaiah is not the son of satan either.

Messing with old languages can easily lead to misunderstanding through incorrect translation. As in this case.

ETA. Also during Easter, Christmas and other times when deemed appropriate, Catholics renew their Baptismal Vows

www.catholic.org...

V. Do you reject Satan?

R. I do. V. And all his works? R. I do.

V. And all his empty promises?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

R. I do.

V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

R. Amen.

Pretty specific about Satan NOT being God right there....

a reply to: markosity1973

If I understood your reply correctly you are just stating exactly what I said in Op: that lucifer is not satan.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Golantrevize

Your first problem is the translation. Google translate has it all wrong.

Here is the correct translation;

May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.

It's a small verse from the much longer Exsultet.

en.wikipedia.org...

So, no the pope did not reference Satan.

Therefore the son of dawn in Isaiah is not the son of satan either.

Messing with old languages can easily lead to misunderstanding through incorrect translation. As in this case.

ETA. Also during Easter, Christmas and other times when deemed appropriate, Catholics renew their Baptismal Vows

www.catholic.org...

V. Do you reject Satan?

R. I do. V. And all his works? R. I do.

V. And all his empty promises?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary was crucified, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father?

R. I do. V. Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

R. I do.

V. God, the all-powerful Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has given us a new birth by water and the Holy Spirit, and forgiven all our sins. May he also keep us faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

R. Amen.

Pretty specific about Satan NOT being God right there....

K with your edit it seems pretty obvious that you did not even read the OP, where did I ever say Satan was God or Jesus ?

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: markosity1973

If I understood your reply correctly you are just stating exactly what I said in Op: that lucifer is not satan.

Definition Lucifer

Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/;[1][2][3] loo-sif-ər) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah (Isaiah 14:12). The Vulgate translation uses the Latin word lucifer, but with a lower-case initial,[4] The Hebrew word, transliterated Hêlêl[5] or Heylel (pron. as HAY-lale),[6] occurs once in the Hebrew Bible[5] and according to the KJV-based Strong's Concordance means "shining one, light-bearer".[6] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος[7][8][9][10][11] (heōsphoros),[12][13][14] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[15] The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[16] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[17][18] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[19]

ie the Morning Star referred to in the Exsultet is not Satan or Jesus, it is Venus. Jesus is the son of the creator and by extension son of creation itself. Therefore calling him son of the morning star is not out of character.

The word Lucifer has multiple meanings. It can refer to Satan and it can refer to Venus, as in this case. It is all about context.

The full explanation to the riddle you pose can be found in this writing here

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

a reply to: markosity1973

It does not say anywhere in the Scripture that Lucifer is Satan it is just some made up story from a 17th century writer, therefore I will not give the Lucifer=Satan any credibility. Think you might have derailed my op to the point of no return already.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Soz, I have edited again. Trying to save posts, but you are too quick lol.

a reply to: markosity1973

Since you seem to know your Scriptures, could you explain to me this passage I am having a hard time comprehending :

‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’

a reply to: Golantrevize

The answer to that question is in the link I posted

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell? The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

The Lucifer referred to in the writing of Isaiah is a Babylonian King who was not very nice to the Jews. It's basically taking a dig at him saying that on judgement day everyone will mock him before God passes judgement.

a reply to: markosity1973

Nebuchadnezzar? But why glorify him with the name bringer of light/ morning star

a reply to: Golantrevize

Read the response - you will see that the name Lucifer is a Latin name, not Hebrew. As the OT is exclusively written in Hebrew, how did a LATIN name sneak in there?

Some kind of skullduggery by early writers is suspected. ie The bible is not as incorrupt as people might think.

Here is a link to the Torah version of that same verse

www.chabad.org...

The word Lucifer is not in the Hebrew (original and correct) version.

Does that help?

a reply to: markosity1973

Does not help no lol, Lucifer is Latin I know, but its meaning is still bringer of light regardless. So we are talking about the same concept. What is the word used in Hebrew when the latins say Lucifer?

a reply to: Golantrevize

My level of Hebrew is not that good unfortunately. From what I can see in Google translate, the word you are looking for is just 'this man' in Hebrew - but I am the first to admit that Google translate is not up to this level of in depth accuracy.

However, you are reverse engineering the bible right now. You are looking for a word to fit a definition given from a different language. Some words do not directly translate though.

The issue here is the Vulgate - the original bible before the King James was translated. This is a Latin translation of the Hebrew one. Prior to the King James translation, English translations were from the Vulgate, so the bible was effectively translated twice. And full of errors as a result.

If one is looking to the word Lucifer in the old testament, it probably slipped in there from the Vulgate and for whatever reason has been left there.

a reply to: Golantrevize
Here you go. The original word is הֵילֵל ... hêylêl.

I honestly don't even know why I care. I'm not of one of those religions but I think that everyone that is should understand that Lucifer is Venus. Otherwise that leads to all kinds of unnecessary conversation.

Good luck on your hunt for information, whatever the path may be.

a reply to: Noncents

That reference makes contextual sense too.

In that context it is saying the person in 14:4 has had a big fall from grace, out of heaven (heaven being referenced to as the place of the morning star - ancient aliens anyone? ) to be judged. The whole chapter is a literal jab at a Babylonian King - probably Nebuchadnezzar.

He saw himself as mighty and holy, but the entire chapter says he will get his come-uppance directly from the hand of God himself, but after the Jews have had a chance to mock him.

a reply to: Noncents

hey thanks , it is also not my religion but is very interesting.

הֵילֵל hêylêl, hay-lale'; from H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—lucifer



ALthough there is many reference to Satan in the Bible there seems to be none for Lucifer. Where did the stories of the archangel Lucifer came from then?

originally posted by: Golantrevize
a reply to: Noncents

ALthough there is many reference to Satan in the Bible there seems to be none for Lucifer. Where did the stories of the archangel Lucifer came from then?

It is bit of a misnomer and it all links back to the Isaiah chapter you brought up. It is meant to refer to where he fell from, not an actual name. The original Torah translation clarifies this

How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? (hêylêl) You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.

The word 'The' and a couple of punctuation changes can totally change the meaning from

How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? (hêylêl)

What the Hebrew Torah says, referring to the morning star as a place.


to

How have you fallen from heaven, morning star. (hêylêl) (Or Lucifer)

To what we see in the bible and what you are questioning, referring to the morning star as a person.


Here is a list of infernal names (Satan synonyms) Lucifer is not on the list.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: Golantrevize
Good question and that's one I don't know. Lucifer is never referred to as an angel anywhere in the bible. The book of Enoch has a lot of angel talk in it but I don't think anything about Lucifer was there. It's been a long time since I've read that though.

The Wikipedia entry for Lucifer is a good starting point to look into it. That mentions a rabbi that looked into the myth and referenced it back to the angel in the garden of Eden or the benei elohim. The entry for Fallen Angel puts the confusion about being an angel down to a misunderstanding of Isaiah 14:12.

All those old world religious stories have been twisted by horrible translations so many times that it would take a hardcore rabbi or biblical scholar to say around when people started thinking what about a lot of the problems. I wouldn't be surprised if Lucifer as an angel kicked up around the time Judaism started blending with Helenism.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Your entire translation is wrong.

www.hope-of-israel.org...

Other Translations

Isaiah 14:12(Hebrew Transliteral) "How you-fell from heavens howl you son of dawn you-were-hacked-down to the earth one defeating over nations."

Isaiah 14:12 (CLV) "How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"

Isaiah 14:12(YLT) "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

Isaiah 14:12 (TAB) "How have you fallen from heaven, O light-bringer and daystar, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground, you who weakened and laid low the nations [O blasphemous, satanic king of Babylon!]."

Isaiah 14:12 (NRSV) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.' 15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 17 who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities' who did not let his prisoners go home?'"

Isaiah 14:12 (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible) "How you are fallen from the heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How you have been cut down to the ground -- you who laid low the nation!"

Isaiah 14:12 (The Jerusalem Bible) "How did you come to fall from the heavens, Daystar, son of Dawn? How did you come to be thrown to the ground, you who enslaved the nations?"

Isaiah 14:12 (Tanakh) "How are you fallen from heaven, O Shining One, son of Dawn! How are you felled to earth, O vanquisher of nations!"