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originally posted by: JoshuaCox
There are 1000s of different flavored of Islam , just like there are 1000s of flavors of Christianity..
If the pope and Vatican City decide to go all genocidal tomorrow, the Protestants will not be blamed, nor would American Catholics. Nor would either side decide that "Christianity needed to change..."
It would be the fault of those specific people involved in said atrocities.
Maybe all of humanity, but definitely "white Christian America" could never even comprehend the concept of all "white people" being responsible for the actions of one or some other "white people" that they don't even know.....
Mainly because deep down we know we made the whole "white people thing" up , so it is patently ridiculous that on an individual basis we should be blamed for the actions of other "whites".
But when it comes to other cultures.......
"There us definitely a problem in the black community..."
Or
""There is definitely a problem with the Muslim community.."
As if they are all getting the same news letter... Like they are all Facebook buddies who go for lattes every Thursday and decide what idiot in some third world cave is deciding...
originally posted by: JoshuaCox
There are 1000s of different flavored of Islam , just like there are 1000s of flavors of Christianity..
If the pope and Vatican City decide to go all genocidal tomorrow, the Protestants will not be blamed, nor would American Catholics. Nor would either side decide that "Christianity needed to change..."
It would be the fault of those specific people involved in said atrocities.
Maybe all of humanity, but definitely "white Christian America" could never even comprehend the concept of all "white people" being responsible for the actions of one or some other "white people" that they don't even know.....
Mainly because deep down we know we made the whole "white people thing" up , so it is patently ridiculous that on an individual basis we should be blamed for the actions of other "whites".
But when it comes to other cultures.......
"There us definitely a problem in the black community..."
Or
""There is definitely a problem with the Muslim community.."
As if they are all getting the same news letter... Like they are all Facebook buddies who go for lattes every Thursday and decide what idiot in some third world cave is deciding...
originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: bloodymarvelous
There is no way "Protestants " could call out the pope, because Protestants are not a single entity..
Plenty of Muslims call out terrorists, but since it isn't even one state of people let alone the 2 billion or whatever. You can always act like "not enough people are calling them out"..
So no matter how many Protestants called him out... You could still have idiots pretending like it wasn't enough so they can villianize those who are totally unconnected to the offenders.
The bible's text is just as horrific as the Koran, but just like most Muslims, most Christians choose to ignore the inconvenient texts..
Originally posted by babloyi
In the centuries following the death of Muhammad, the religion spread far and wide. With it, the scholars of the religion.
Now along with the Quran itself, the teachings of Muhammad (in the form of Hadith, or sayings of the Prophet) were left behind.
Originally posted by babloyi
These were collected from the first-hand and second-hand (mostly oral) accounts. Since we're dealing with people here, some of those accounts contradicted each other in some things, either implicitly or explicitly. Thus grew the field of Hadith scholarship, where authenticity of a hadith was investigated by various means (whether it contradicts the Quran, whether some person in the chain of narration was deemed untrustworthy, etc.).
Originally posted by babloyi
So what you might take as a confusingly cavalier approach to searching for the "true Islam", muslims take as "Unless they're explicitly contradicting the Quran, it's not my place to question the Islamicness of this person", because "takfir", declaring someone a kafir, or denier of the truth, is not a thing done lightly in Islam.
originally posted by: Joecroft
How come some Muslims don’t seem to agree on whether the Quran was compiled before, or after the Prophet Muhammad's death…?
I mean, shouldn’t the chain of narration clear up that issue…?
These were collected from the first-hand and second-hand (mostly oral) accounts. Since we're dealing with people here, some of those accounts contradicted each other in some things, either implicitly or explicitly.
originally posted by: Joecroft
Some Muslims mention how there are authentic hadiths and non authentic Hadiths…but how does one qualify their authenticity…?
...where authenticity of a hadith was investigated by various means (whether it contradicts the Quran, whether some person in the chain of narration was deemed untrustworthy, etc.).
originally posted by: Joecroft
But surely a Muslim could disagree with a sect of Islam, on a particular issue, without implying overall, that they are not Muslim or Islamic, or being “takfir”…right…?
because the average Joe in the street, just wants to know what the True Islam is…
originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: EasternShadow
You (and then me in response to you) were speaking about differences between a Shia and a Sunni Quran, something which does not exist.
originally posted by: babloyi
Until the completion of the Quran by Muhammad, many things were added, and possibly removed. It was a living book, constantly updated. I don't quite see the point you are trying to make.
originally posted by: babloyi
And your source is a chatroom?
originally posted by: EasternShadow
On surface, both appear to be the same Quran. But few suras and order is enough to justify the differences in Quran, leading to differences in perspective by Sunni and Shia. Thus affecting their judgement and law.
originally posted by: babloyi
My point is today Quran is not the original Quran Muhammad taught to his people. So, do you agree that Quran has been tampered and without Muhammad's approval?
originally posted by: EasternShadow
The chatroom contain reference to the sources, such as the one I quoted, 'Sahih Al Bukhari-Kitab Al', Tafseer Bab- وَمَا خَلَقَ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى ". (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 105, narrated by Alqama on subject "Companions of the Prophet")
Sahih Al Bukhari is considered "strong" by muslim.
originally posted by: babloyi
[To be honest, I am very very skeptic with middle age muslim scholars methodology with regards to Hadith authenticity. Muhammad, just like Jesus, obviously did not forsee the consequences of verbal transmisson hundred years later after his death. Perhaps it is intentional, their teaching is not meant to be preserved, and the future would better be left alone to the free will of more advance civilization? Isnt that why God ( Allah ) created us, not as believer or non-believer, not as the obedient servant like Angel, and not as the defious rebellious Devil, but as HUMAN ?
originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: EasternShadow
originally posted by: EasternShadow
On surface, both appear to be the same Quran. But few suras and order is enough to justify the differences in Quran, leading to differences in perspective by Sunni and Shia. Thus affecting their judgement and law.
I think you misunderstood my point. My point was that there is NO difference between the Shia and Sunni Quran. Shias and Sunnis BOTH use the EXACT SAME Quran, not even differentiated by "few suras and order".
If what you say is true, there would be two versions of the Quran in existence right now, one that Sunnis use, one that Shias use. There isn't. Both use the same Quran.
originally posted by: babloyi
Do I see any evidence that the Quran was tampered with after Muhammad finalised it? Not really, no. There were certainly Muhammad changed during his life, things added, and possibly things removed, but certainly nothing I see suggesting that something further than that occurred. And the consensus (insofar as both Shia and Sunni scholarship goes), aside from a few tiny outliers, is with me.
originally posted by: babloyi
I've never been a fan of the claim that somehow verbal transmission is "lesser" or less authentic than a written one, simply due to how it is.
originally posted by: EasternShadow
Yes there is. There are 2 version of Quran exist today; Qira't of Hafs 'Asim and Qira't of Warsh 'an Naafi. Textual Quran ( Al Kitab or Book of Quran ) used by shia is not the same as the one used by sunni. Shia believe some passages in Quran mentioned Ali as the rightful decendant of Muhammad to hold Caliph position or Imam. Example, Sura Al-Maidah, Ayat 67.
Such passage do not appear in international Quran today. Other example the passage of "rajam" ( stonning to death penalty for adultery ) is absent in Quran and Uthman was completely aware of it.
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you will not preach, it would be as though you have not conveyed My message. God protects you from men. He does not guide the unbelieving people.
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ
originally posted by: EasternShadow
Something further happen after the death of Muhammad. The compilation of Quran into written book ( Al Kitab Quran ). According to Shia, the compilation of complete Quran was already done during Muhammad. That because they hold Ali's mushaf as their main source of Quran. However, according to Sunni, the first compilation was completed during Uthman's reign as the caliph, known as the Uthmanic Codex. Uthman commisioned Zaid Bin Thabit to collect all written copies of Quran. However, he rejected Ali's written Quran ( Ali's mushaf ). Before Uthmanic Codex, there is no cannonized version of Quran. Therefore, every Quran written during Muhamad's life is not considered canon, including Ali's mushaf and was ordered to be destroyed by Uthman.
originally posted by: EasternShadow
Verbal transmission is subjected to memory loss after a long period of time. Very few people could memorize the complete Quran and Hadith.
originally posted by: babloyi
I'm not sure how to proceed here. You've got me into a situation where you're saying "The sky is green", and I'm saying "The sky not green", and it's hard to find documentation showing the sky is not green.
Anyhow, I've provided some nonetheless:
islam.stackexchange.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.islamicity.org...
originally posted by: babloyi
There are many "Qirat" (methods of recitation) of the Quran, NONE of them have a different text, and according to Prophetic tradition, ALL are valid.
THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO IMAM HAFS:
He (Muhammad) said (qaala), "My lord knows ..." (21:4)
THE QUR'AN ACCORDING TO IMAM WARSHL:
Say (qul): My lord knows ...
originally posted by: babloyi
Here is Surah Al-Maidah's verse 67 by the famous Sunni Muslim translator Yusuf Ali:
O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
Here is the same verse by Muhammad Sarwar, a Shia Translator:
Messenger, preach what is revealed to you from your Lord. If you will not preach, it would be as though you have not conveyed My message. God protects you from men. He does not guide the unbelieving people.
For the sake of completeness, here is the arabic Quranic verses that accompanies both translations:
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ
On authority of Abul-Hasan Ibn Madai that he said: Commander of Believers recited O Messenger! proclaim the (Message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord concerning the Caliphate of Ali. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His Mission. (Holy Quran 5:67), I said: is it revealed? He said: yes!
originally posted by: babloyi
Likewise, although scholars all know the text of the verse of stoning, and its supposed placement, it is not present in ANY Quran today, Shia or Sunni. This is because it was removed before the Quran was completed.
... Allah sent Muhammad (saw) with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married persons, male and female, who commit adultery) and we did recite this verse and understood and memorized it. Allah’s Apostle (saw) did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, "By Allah, we do not find the verse of the Rajam in Allah’s Book", and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed.
originally posted by: babloyi
Yes, as I mentioned earlier, there is debate among Shias and Sunnis as to the method of the compilation of the Quran. Neither disagree with each other as to the content.
Shia author Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Sayyari (9th century)[17]
Ali Ibn Ibrahim Qomi (d. 919)[18]
Al Ayyaashi (d. 932)
Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (d. 941)
Al-Shaykh Al-Mufid (d. 1022) — spoke of the alteration which occurred in the ordering of Quranic verses (ta'līf).[19]
Mohsen Fayz Kashani (d. 1680)[18]
Ni'matullah Al Jazaa'iri (d. 1701)
Muhammad Baqir Behbahani (d. 1791) — who wrote in al-Fawā'id al-ḥā'iriyya: "It is clear from the many akhbār that [corruption] occurred... Our position is that it is permitted to act upon one of the famous seven variants [of the Qur'ān]. The indicator for this position is the statement, or rather the order, of the Imams that "You must recite as the people recite until the day of the return of the qā'im"."[20]
Mirza Husain Noori Tabarsi (d. 1902)
Agha Bozorg Tehrani (d. 1970)[21]
originally posted by: babloyi
That's like saying "Written transmission is subject to paper loss". Not if it is transmitted properly.
originally posted by: babloyi
For my own clarity, a bit of a possibly offensive question, but are you a muslim or former muslim who believed all those things about Shias like "They believe in a different Quran!", "They take Ali/Hussain as equal to God!" or "They perform satanic rituals with horses!"?