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What is the True Islam…???

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posted on Apr, 30 2017 @ 08:49 PM
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originally posted by: UnBreakable

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Joecroft


We often see reports in the media of human rights atrocities being committed in Middle Eastern countries.






…because the average Joe in the street, just wants to know what the True Islam is…

More atrocities have been perped by that religion on the world than any other.



True. The Islamic terrorists killing in the name of Islam today are no different than the Crusades and Inquisition killings in the name of Christianity. Islamic terrorists are just a few millenia behind the times.



Seriously?




The Spanish Inquisition is often cited in popular literature and history as an example of Catholic intolerance and repression. Various modern historians question earlier accounts and have noted that the scope and brutality of the Spanish Inquisition was probably exaggerated during the waves of anti-Catholicism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.[2] Although records are incomplete, about 150,000 persons were charged with crimes by the Inquisition and it is believed 3,000 - 5,000 people were executed.


en.wikipedia.org...

Crusades?



The Armenian Genocide of the last century? 1.5 mil because they were Christians.

Don't say they are the same, not even close.







posted on Apr, 30 2017 @ 09:24 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I agree. If People fail to learn from History, they are bound to repeat it.




posted on May, 1 2017 @ 06:53 AM
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a reply to: babloyi



Originally posted by babloyi
Are you talking about some one specific crazy person who claims to be muslim, yelling into the void, and then applying that to all muslims? If so, please do tell who this person is, because I've never heard of them.



Most articles describe her as a “Muslim woman”…so that, plus the fact that she lives in Saudi Arabia…would make me presume she is a Muslim…

But it doesn’t really matter if the woman is a Muslim or not…the key issue for me, is that she has been arrested, in an Islamic country, for not wearing a hijab…



Originally posted by babloyi
Who called for the death penalty for not wearing a hijab? As I mentioned in my first post in this thread (I didn't just say it wasn't advocated in Islam), I know of no country with any such law.


Ok, in this particular case, the state is not calling for the death penalty, but she has received death threats for refussing to wear the hijab.


From the article I linked in my last reply…



Ms. al-Shehri, who has been likened to American civil rights icon Rosa Parks, recently received death threats for defying the nation’s modesty laws.





Originally posted by babloyi
You're confusing the question with stuff about "choice". We all have the choice to do whatever we wish, whether it is sin or do good deeds. That freedom doesn't protect us from the consequences of our actions however.


I’m not sure I’m following you here…

The (supposedly) true teaching of the Quran that woman can have a “choice” to wear a hijab or not…And being arrested for not wearing one in an Islamic country, does not equal a free “choice”…

Anyway, my question is still pretty much the same as before, minus the call for death penalty from the state…

From the article I linked in my last reply…



A woman referred to by fans as the “Saudi Rosa Parks” has been arrested for her refusal to wear a hijab or abaya in public.


Why is a woman being “arrested” for not wearing a hijab, when according to true Islam woman should have a free choice whether to wear one or not…?

The common answer, is that this is just to do with whatever Laws apply in a particular Islamic country…but surely the Laws should reflect their beliefs in the Quran…

And from my previous post…




Originally posted by Joecroft
If the Quran is clear on woman having a choice in regards to wearing the hijab, then how can there be any confusion regarding this issue, within any sect of Islam… Why do you think this is happening…?


One would think that a simple reading of the Quran would clear up this issue fairly easily…I’m not a Muslim and have limited knowledge on the Quran so I wouldn’t know…

I’m looking for a scriptural understanding within the Quran, and how it is even possible for it to be seen/interpreted in another light, that runs contrary to what most Muslims in the west believe around the hijab issue…




Originally posted by babloyi
More appropriate questions may be "Is it sinful according to Islam to not wear a hijab?" or "Is there a punishment proscribed for not wearing hijab?"


Hey, they’re pretty good questions…I’ll think I’ll go with those…




Originally posted by babloyi
Now the Quran speaks about the wives of the Prophet Muhammad, talking about how they should wear the hijab. If one wished to emulate them (generally considered a good thing), they would wear a hijab. Some people however, go further, and take the term used there to refer to all women in general.


So what you’re saying is that married woman are strongly recommended to wear a hijab, but they still have a free choice….right…?




Originally posted by babloyi
To be understood absolutely in the sense it was meant to be taken, yes. That doesn't mean that no non-arab can ever become muslim or understand the Quran. It's just that if you're reading a translation of the Quran, that's not the Quran, it is a translation of the Quran. Still a very useful learning exercise, of course. But translating between languages is not a trivial thing. Words don't have one-to-one mappings between languages, there are senses or dimensions that are added or missing. If you're learning in general about Islam, a reasonable translation should work more than well enough. If you're looking to make laws or delve into the details of Islamic jurisprudence, then if you can't read arabic, maybe use multiple different translations of the Quran.


Thanks for taking the time to explain all that…I gave you a star…




- JC



posted on May, 1 2017 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

originally posted by: Joecroft
Ok, in this particular case, the state is not calling for the death penalty, but she has received death threats for refussing to wear the hijab.

I'd say there's definitely a world of difference between being arrested for not wearing a hijab vs being put to death for it. Neither are optimal situations, of course, but one is way worse than the other, and that is the one you were suggesting earlier. As for anonymous death threats, again, not an optimal state to be in, but even in the US you get death threats for suggesting something as mundane as that video games might be a little sexist, so I wouldn't put too much stock in the meaningfulness of that beyond man's capacity for bitterness.
Now, I don't quite see how what Saudi Arabia does is somehow representative of all of Islam, considering it makes up 1.75% of the muslim population worldwide. It has a lot of ridiculous laws that have no basis in any religion.


originally posted by: Joecroft
The (supposedly) true teaching of the Quran that woman can have a “choice” to wear a hijab or not…And being arrested for not wearing one in an Islamic country, does not equal a free “choice”…

The supposedly true teaching of the Quran (and the Judeo-Christian Bible, and probably most religious texts) is that we have free will, but free will has consequences. That was my initial point. Just because the consequences exist, doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. That is why I said that the question wasn't the best one for the situation. Now if the question was instead

Originally posted by babloyi
More appropriate questions may be "Is it sinful according to Islam to not wear a hijab?" or "Is there a punishment proscribed for not wearing hijab?"

which you agreed with, then no, there is no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab, and while it can be interpreted to be a good thing to wear one (depending on your reading of the Quran), the extent to which it is an actual commandment is not so strong.

You keep going back to this "true Islam", but as I said, that's a bit of a complicated title, because:

Originally posted by babloyi
The best you can do is take where they claim to get their belief-set, and then if their actual beliefs don't match that, they aren't "true". So for example, for the average Sunni/Shi'ite muslim who accepts the Quran and a commonality of Hadith, if they're advocating, for example, female genital mutilation or honour killing, that's not "true" muslims.

Like, to take an example of Christianity, you may have some opinions on certain things (the exact status of Jesus as part of the Trinity, Faith vs Works, the meaning of baptism, etc. etc. etc.), and to you, those issues will have definitive proper answers, gleaned from the texts themselves. But someone else, who would have different opinions on those issues would draw those same different opinions from the same texts. To you, yours is the "true christianity", to them, theirs is.


originally posted by: Joecroft
I’m looking for a scriptural understanding within the Quran, and how it is even possible for it to be seen/interpreted in another light, that runs contrary to what most Muslims in the west believe around the hijab issue…

It is amazingly easy. Just have different standards. I mean, it's the difference between going from "The Prophet Muhammad is the best example for us to follow" to "If we don't follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (and by extension, the women in his family), we're in grave sin". The Saudis/Salafis/Wahabis also have this idea of the "potential towards wrongdoing", so in typical controlling behaviour, they outlaw things that occurred openly in the time of Muhammad (such as women driving their own vehicles), because the resultant freedom "has the potential" to lead them towards wrongdoing.

PS: Your signature refers to "Provers" 9:10.
edit on 1-5-2017 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 2 2017 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: babloyi




Originally posted by babloyi
The supposedly true teaching of the Quran (and the Judeo-Christian Bible, and probably most religious texts) is that we have free will, but free will has consequences. That was my initial point. Just because the consequences exist, doesn't mean free will doesn't exist. That is why I said that the question wasn't the best one for the situation.


But in the example we were discussing…

…the consequences of not wearing a hijab = Getting Arrested…

I’m not sure whether you’re condoning the consequences here or not…Although I totally understand your point about freewill…



Originally posted by babloyi
which you agreed with, then no, there is no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab, and while it can be interpreted to be a good thing to wear one (depending on your reading of the Quran), the extent to which it is an actual commandment is not so strong.


But isn’t this just you’re true version of Islam…?




Originally posted by babloyi
You keep going back to this "true Islam", but as I said, that's a bit of a complicated title, because:


But if you think about it, you stated further up that “Now, I don't quite see how what Saudi Arabia does is somehow representative of all of Islam”

Which suggests (between the lines) that you believe there is a true version of Islam…(in regards to the hijab issue)




Originally posted by babloyi
Like, to take an example of Christianity, you may have some opinions on certain things (the exact status of Jesus as part of the Trinity, Faith vs Works, the meaning of baptism, etc. etc. etc.), and to you, those issues will have definitive proper answers, gleaned from the texts themselves. But someone else, who would have different opinions on those issues would draw those same different opinions from the same texts. To you, yours is the "true christianity", to them, theirs is.


There is no “true Christianity”…IMO, because although I believe Gods truth is encoded into the book, it was corrupted from the beginning by those in power at that time…

I’m not a Christian or an Atheist; I just believe Jesus taught spiritual and universal truth, that was later corrupted and added too etc…




Originally posted by babloyi
It is amazingly easy. Just have different standards. I mean, it's the difference between going from "The Prophet Muhammad is the best example for us to follow" to "If we don't follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (and by extension, the women in his family), we're in grave sin". The Saudis/Salafis/Wahabis also have this idea of the "potential towards wrongdoing", so in typical controlling behaviour, they outlaw things that occurred openly in the time of Muhammad (such as women driving their own vehicles), because the resultant freedom "has the potential" to lead them towards wrongdoing.


Yeah but come on…If you’re going to follow the Prophet Muhammad correctly then you would need to know whether wearing a hijab is recommended or forced and therefore punishable…

Lets try a different question here…


Why according to you, is there no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab…?

And I would assume you would get you’re answer from the Quran itself…



Originally posted by babloyi
PS: Your signature refers to "Provers" 9:10.


Yeah it does, thanks for reminding me lol


- JC



posted on May, 2 2017 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft


originally posted by: Joecroft
But isn’t this just you’re true version of Islam…?

As I said, instead of going towards opinions about what is right and wrong, I went to observable facts. In the verse talking about covering oneself, there is no mention of any punishment for not doing so. And the context of the verse I spoke of was harassment of the wives and daughters of the Prophet.



And those who harm the believing men and the believing women for other than what they have earned, then certainly, they bear false accusation and sin manifest. O Prophet! Say to your wives, daughters and women believers to draw over themselves [of] their outer garments. That's more suitable that they should be known and not harmed. And is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

(sorry for the very literal translation)


originally posted by: Joecroft
But if you think about it, you stated further up that “Now, I don't quite see how what Saudi Arabia does is somehow representative of all of Islam”

Which suggests (between the lines) that you believe there is a true version of Islam…(in regards to the hijab issue)

Between (and in) the lines, I was stating that there are almost 2 billion muslims, and less than 2% live in Saudi Arabia, they are not representative of all muslims or all muslim beliefs. Of course I believe there is a true version of Islam, it is the one I follow. Just like most muslims would believe in the "true version" of Islam that they follow. I just don't believe that everyone who doesn't follow mine is a heretic or whatever.


originally posted by: Joecroft
Why according to you, is there no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab…?

And I would assume you would get you’re answer from the Quran itself…

Why? I don't know why. It just is.



posted on May, 3 2017 @ 05:31 PM
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a reply to: babloyi




Originally posted by babloyi
Of course I believe there is a true version of Islam, it is the one I follow. Just like most muslims would believe in the "true version" of Islam that they follow.


Yeah, but lets just say I wish to become a Muslim, which version do I follow…? Surely there can’t be lots of “true versions”, there has to be only one correct true interpretation…even if it’s extremely ellusive…




Originally posted by Joecroft
Why according to you, is there no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab…?

And I would assume you would get you’re answer from the Quran itself…




Originally posted by babloyi
Why? I don't know why. It just is.



Let me re-phrase the question…

Why do you believe there is no punishment prescribed for not wearing a hijab…? i.e. what’s you’re scriptural reasoning from the Quran for believing in it that way; and what makes you think you’re following the “true version”…as apposed to those who believe their should be a punishment etc…

I mean, you’ve kind of outlined, in a few of your post so far, the different reasons for both views, but how does anyone know which is the true version, or correct perspective of Islam on this issue…?

- JC



posted on May, 3 2017 @ 07:34 PM
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a reply to: burgerbuddy

Good luck playing the "he started it game" with history..

All of our ancestors were a bunch of racist barbarians who raped and pillaged for fun.. commiting atrocities that would have made hitler blush... hell western culture didn't stop sacking cities till 1945..



posted on May, 3 2017 @ 07:37 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Actually I think you would have to show the scripture that says you will be beaten/killed for not wearing one. Then he would be responsible for showing a verse that negates it , or you win the point.

Your asking him to prove a negative by not establishing it says that in the first place.


It works the same way as the Bible..

It is a list of what you can't do, not what you can do...

edit on 3-5-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)




Lol only 5.8% of Germany is Muslim...

BWAHAHA

i don't think I would buy stock in korans just yet lol..
edit on 3-5-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox



Originally posted by JoshuaCox

Actually I think you would have to show the scripture that says you will be beaten/killed for not wearing one. Then he would be responsible for showing a verse that negates it , or you win the point.

Your asking him to prove a negative by not establishing it says that in the first place.


But the poster babloyi already gave reasons for why some Muslims believe there should be consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…in this his/her post below…so I don’t have to prove or show anything…



Originally posted by babloyi
It is amazingly easy. Just have different standards. I mean, it's the difference between going from "The Prophet Muhammad is the best example for us to follow" to "If we don't follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (and by extension, the women in his family), we're in grave sin". The Saudis/Salafis/Wahabis also have this idea of the "potential towards wrongdoing", so in typical controlling behaviour, they outlaw things that occurred openly in the time of Muhammad (such as women driving their own vehicles), because the resultant freedom "has the potential" to lead them towards wrongdoing.



And babloyi also stated that according to his or her interpretation of the Quran, that there are no consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…

My question is… How do we know which view/belief represents the true version of Islam…?

**********

And just to add – when I mentioned death penalty in my posts, I meant, why are the people “calling” for her death, and not that the state was issuing a death penalty…seems that caused some confusion to some posters…perhaps I could have been a little more clear there…

But still, my point is that a woman has been arrested for refusing to wear a hijab in an Islamic country, and is therefore going to face some kind of punishment from the state…


- JC



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 12:36 PM
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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: JoshuaCox



Originally posted by JoshuaCox

Actually I think you would have to show the scripture that says you will be beaten/killed for not wearing one. Then he would be responsible for showing a verse that negates it , or you win the point.

Your asking him to prove a negative by not establishing it says that in the first place.


But the poster babloyi already gave reasons for why some Muslims believe there should be consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…in this his/her post below…so I don’t have to prove or show anything…



Originally posted by babloyi
It is amazingly easy. Just have different standards. I mean, it's the difference between going from "The Prophet Muhammad is the best example for us to follow" to "If we don't follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (and by extension, the women in his family), we're in grave sin". The Saudis/Salafis/Wahabis also have this idea of the "potential towards wrongdoing", so in typical controlling behaviour, they outlaw things that occurred openly in the time of Muhammad (such as women driving their own vehicles), because the resultant freedom "has the potential" to lead them towards wrongdoing.



And babloyi also stated that according to his or her interpretation of the Quran, that there are no consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…

My question is… How do we know which view/belief represents the true version of Islam…?

**********

And just to add – when I mentioned death penalty in my posts, I meant, why are the people “calling” for her death, and not that the state was issuing a death penalty…seems that caused some confusion to some posters…perhaps I could have been a little more clear there…

But still, my point is that a woman has been arrested for refusing to wear a hijab in an Islamic country, and is therefore going to face some kind of punishment from the state…


- JC





Call me crazy, but if Babylio thinks the passage he posted is anywhere near definitive he is reaching...

"Anyone who doesn't act as Mohammad did is in grave sin.."

A) doesn't specifically reference the hijab or women...

B) doesn't apply a punishment to those in grave sin...

C) does it say weather it is referring to philosophy or clothing or actions, exc.. It is way to broad to assign any specific meaning too.

That's like taking John 3:16 and deciding that means that your worldly actions do not matter , you can be a pedophile as long as you believe and still reach paradise..


If some one in a vacuumed asked you if one meant the other , I don't think you would agree.. I wouldn't..


There are 1000s of different flavored of Islam , just like there are 1000s of flavors of Christianity..

If the pope and Vatican City decide to go all genocidal tomorrow, the Protestants will not be blamed, nor would American Catholics. Nor would either side decide that "Christianity needed to change..."

It would be the fault of those specific people involved in said atrocities.

Maybe all of humanity, but definitely "white Christian America" could never even comprehend the concept of all "white people" being responsible for the actions of one or some other "white people" that they don't even know.....

Mainly because deep down we know we made the whole "white people thing" up , so it is patently ridiculous that on an individual basis we should be blamed for the actions of other "whites".

But when it comes to other cultures.......


"There us definitely a problem in the black community..."

Or

""There is definitely a problem with the Muslim community.."


As if they are all getting the same news letter... Like they are all Facebook buddies who go for lattes every Thursday and decide what idiot in some third world cave is deciding...



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 02:13 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

originally posted by: Joecroft
But the poster babloyi already gave reasons for why some Muslims believe there should be consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…in this his/her post below…so I don’t have to prove or show anything…

Actually, what I gave was a reply to your question "How can the scripture be interpreted in such a way?": I told you it was a simple jump from "The Prophet is the best example to follow" (a paraphrasing of an actual Quranic verse) to "People who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin" (my summary of their interpretation. NOT in any sense scripture).

There is no verse saying that people who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin, that is their interpretation of it. There is no scriptural punishment for not wearing a hijab, so your question confused me as well, and I was waiting for your response to JoshuaCox. I cannot prove a negative: It isn't my OPINION that there's no scriptural punishment for not wearing the hijab, it's just that in the verses that may be considered enjoining people to wear the hijab, there's no punishment mentioned. So I am not sure how I can answer your question. You think the Quran says or implies somewhere "If someone doesn't wear the hijab, arrest them!" and that the Saudis are following that? I assure you, it isn't true. Not sure what I can do beyond that.
edit on 6-5-2017 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 02:16 PM
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True Islam? Let's ask Mohammed, the original mouthpiece through whom Islam came to be...

As a brazen & committed paedophile, we see that Mohammed's claims of "divine authority" can only be utterly BULL# because a child is a child is a child. One should not use a child for sex. One must not use a child for 'marriage' servitude & sex. Children should be loved, protected, made to feel secure, made to feel valuable by the parents or caregivers - they should be educated & taught to deal with life, ultimately to learn a trade, or to run a household, even to have the wisdom for such occupations as holding public office, etc. A child is NOT naturally what a grown man should choose for sex. Children are neither physically, intellectually or emotionally suited for sex or 'marriage' servitude with a grown man.

Early forerunners of renaissance hermeticists, indeed all the way back (at least) to Athens in the days of Plato, onward through Jerusalem with the teachings of Jesus & apostolic succession through His disciples; all of them together speak of establishing one's position in the realms of nature, of mind, of spirit - remaining within the (to them) obvious divine order, having reverence for God & for the beauty & efficiency evident in nature, also present in the form, character & mystical experience of Man. Natural suitability & analogical, sympathetic magic, thaumaturgical disciplines, mystic tradition & initiation, seeking the truly divine, humble prayer & the adoption of simplicity, equality, liberty, brotherhood, as guiding principles. These practices all rest on foundations developed through the vast histories of wisdom & insight of those who came before, with traditions which are able to bring novices/ disciples into a structured, beneficial, character building initiation of wisdom traditions or spiritual schools, monasteries, church communities, etc.

None of this sort of wisdom or initiatory process, neither any attempt to generate a better order of things, is visible in the early Islamic spread & conquest This should immediately cause alarm bells to sound, and quite simply, it is #ing obvious to anyone who has a moral compass, a sense of conscience, an awareness of the need for wellbeing & harmony between peoples, an awareness of the fact that children need to feel loved, to feel part of a family & wider community - IT IS #ING OBVIOUS that paedophilia is utterly, absolutely, completely & entirely a demonic practice. It is not possible for paedophilia to be a victimless 'personal preference', simply because children are neither physically, emotionally or intellectually capable of understanding, processing, or bearing up under, paedophilic sexual abuse. Children are off limits, and Jesus said "If anyone harms one of these little ones, it would be better for him that he have a millstone tied about his neck & then be cast into the sea", rather than the universal judicious punishment for such an abhorrent crime; the little ones should be shepherded, not abused, OBVIOUSLY.

On the basis of this fact alone, it is fully acceptable to immediately throw Islam into the trash - if the seed is poisonous, it should not be allowed to grow in the garden of Human spirituality. Only good seeds may grow in that garden.. We could talk for page after page, detailing yet more, ever more reasons for the dark truth of Islam to be made known as a devious, disgusting, brutal, demonic heresy, an imitation of spirituality, having totally inverse 'moral' rules. As noted, however, once we establish the evidence that Mohammed was a brutal, lifelong, unrepentant paedophile, who allowed all his followers permission to behave in the same way, it is clear to anyone with even half a brain cell to see that it's not spiritual at all - it's a system of control which allowed for, and continues to allow for, rampant theft, and deviant sexual practices (as are outlawed by any sane nation).

Mohammed married a six year old girl, and used her for sex when she was nine years old - think about it - he used the poor girl for sex AS SOON AS SHE HAD GROWN ENOUGH TO 'ACCOMMODATE' HIM....

He was also a raider of caravans (brutally murdering the traders in order to steal their goods, their women, their children). A thieving, brutal paedophile, who kills honest traders of his own ethnicity/heritage, solely in order to increase his personal wealth, and the number of women & girls he can use as 'wives' (sex slaves), or sell to his perverted mates for the same purpose.

From this auspicious beginning it just gets worse - and bear in mind that AT NO POINT does Mohammed repent of his evil behaviour. At no point.

I can't be bothered right now, but his 'revelations' from the 'angel Gabriel' (cough...cough...Satan.. ahem..) were solely twisted to be used as an excuse for thievery, murder, rampant & horrendously destructive invasion & conquest, with crushing economic burdens upon the original citizens living under the rule of Mohammedans, having surrendered to avoid total extermination. NB - whatever wisdom is claimed for Islam, is actually inherited from conquered citizenry. In particular, Byzantine Christian monks & teachers of philosophy, medicine & so on, were directly employed by the courts of the Mohammedan rulers, in order to assimilate their knowledge. ISLAM HAS NO WISDOM OF ITS OWN. Only conquest, murder, taxes & utterly disgusting, institutionalised sexual abuse of women & very, very young girls. Brutal suppression of dissent, freedom of thought disallowed.

The medieval monk/philosopher/saint, Thomas Aquinas, once remarked that Mohammed had been asked, by a representative of one of the earliest conquered nations, by what sign he could prove that he had been sent by God to be the prophet he claimed to be.. Mohammed answered the philosopher: "By the strength of my arm". He referred of course to his large army (composed of brutal nomads who had been inspired to follow en masse by promises of vast wealth & unlimited sex slaves), which allowed him to conquer & overthrow nations/ states & peoples, by the brute force applied through assymmetrical warfare. Thomas Aquinas observes that Mohammed therefore has a 'divine evidence' which is shared by thieves & murderers. Spiritual? No. It never was, and it is not, and it can never be - it is an INVERSE system of control which is the antithesis of all that is good & holy. For the sake of the children, one day Mankind will be forced into some very, very difficult decisions, else risk extermination at the hands of this savage enemy. The ideology is pure poison, and what we see in the form of terror attacks around the world, even civil war within their own nations between two sects, against each other, is a muted form of what would occur, if there were not highly organised & secret warfare continuing in order to muffle the horror which would otherwise be manifest across our world.

And remember; children are not born with bloodlust & perverse hearts. They are being trained into this, and ultimately, I believe, we will be forced to LITERALLY outlaw Islam, and initiate a program of monitoring to ensure that children are being educated as agnostic, secular humanists, permitted freedom of choice regarding which spiritual path, if any, they will choose to follow, and regarding the future they wish to pursue as true Westerners.


edit on MaySaturday1715CDT02America/Chicago-050020 by FlyInTheOintment because: formatting



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 02:50 PM
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originally posted by: babloyi
a reply to: Joecroft

originally posted by: Joecroft
But the poster babloyi already gave reasons for why some Muslims believe there should be consequences/punishments for not wearing a hijab…in this his/her post below…so I don’t have to prove or show anything…

Actually, what I gave was a reply to your question "How can the scripture be interpreted in such a way?": I told you it was a simple jump from "The Prophet is the best example to follow" (a paraphrasing of an actual Quranic verse) to "People who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin" (my summary of their interpretation. NOT in any sense scripture).

There is no verse saying that people who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin, that is their interpretation of it. There is no scriptural punishment for not wearing a hijab, so your question confused me as well, and I was waiting for your response to JoshuaCox. I cannot prove a negative: It isn't my OPINION that there's no scriptural punishment for not wearing the hijab, it's just that in the verses that may be considered enjoining people to wear the hijab, there's no punishment mentioned. So I am not sure how I can answer your question. You think the Quran says or implies somewhere "If someone doesn't wear the hijab, arrest them!" and that the Saudis are following that? I assure you, it isn't true. Not sure what I can do beyond that.



I was making the same point you were migo, only saying that even if it did say "they were in grave sin". That is way to broad to assign a specific meaning tward what it is referring to exactly about following their actions or what the punishment for grave sin should be.



posted on May, 6 2017 @ 10:54 PM
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What is the true Islam??

If your question is about today Islam, then you will never get your answer. There are numerous Islamic schools and branches around the world.

en.wikipedia.org...

Each claims represent true ( intrepretation ) Islam. Each has their own thought and may likely contradict with each other ( although they do share some similiarity in general principle ). Generalization in Islamic laws such as this make no sense.

I purpose you to be more spesific with whom you direct your question.

The only true Islam is the one that Muhammad recite aloud ( Quran ). Do not judge Islam by those who live on intrepretation upon intrepretation hundreds of years after Muhammad died. Such teaching(s) can be misleading and confusing.

"True" Islam doesnt exist anymore. Just like Yeshua's "Christian".

There is no such thing as "true" religion anymore.
edit on 6-5-2017 by EasternShadow because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2017 @ 05:04 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox




Originally posted by JoshuaCox
Call me crazy, but if Babylio thinks the passage he posted is anywhere near definitive he is reaching...

"Anyone who doesn't act as Mohammad did is in grave sin.."

A) doesn't specifically reference the hijab or women...


Babloyi’s reply that I quoted in my previous post to you, was in regards to me asking him/her about the “hijab issue”…you need to go back and follow the flow of the discussion…

Which can be found here here and here

And you might want to take a look at my next reply to Babloyi…




Originally posted by JoshuaCox
B) doesn't apply a punishment to those in grave sin...



I’m not really hung up on defining or outlining what the exact punishment will/should be; just the fact that its an arrestable offence means there will be consequences, and therefore some type of punishment…




Originally posted by JoshuaCox
C) does it say weather it is referring to philosophy or clothing or actions, exc.. It is way to broad to assign any specific meaning too.


Again, the context of Babloyi’s reply (that I quoted), was in regards to my question about the Hijab issue…you should also take a look at my next reply to Babloyi.



Originally posted by JoshuaCox
If some one in a vacuumed asked you if one meant the other , I don't think you would agree.. I wouldn't..


There are 1000s of different flavored of Islam , just like there are 1000s of flavors of Christianity..


Yes, I’m aware of that, but I’m enterested in hearing why a specific truth, is their truth, so to speak…



Originally posted by JoshuaCox
If the pope and Vatican City decide to go all genocidal tomorrow, the Protestants will not be blamed, nor would American Catholics. Nor would either side decide that "Christianity needed to change..."

It would be the fault of those specific people involved in said atrocities.

Maybe all of humanity, but definitely "white Christian America" could never even comprehend the concept of all "white people" being responsible for the actions of one or some other "white people" that they don't even know..…



Exactly, because you can’t blame a whole religion on the actions of a few of it’s adherents…I totally get that…I really do…

Normally when people discuss these types of topics, it descends into the typical “blame game”… But I’m not trying to lay blame on either side here…

I’m only looking for the true Islamic perspective and the reasoning behind why that specific view is “the true one”, from a scriptural Quranic view point or an interpretation thereof…


- JC



posted on May, 7 2017 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: babloyi



Originally posted by babloyi
You think the Quran says or implies somewhere "If someone doesn't wear the hijab, arrest them!" and that the Saudis are following that? I assure you, it isn't true.


No…that’s NOT what I’m saying at all…

I’m just looking at/for the different views and why people think that’s the true interpretation of Islam…

I don’t know the Quran as well as you do…although I have read parts of it…

But seriously, I’m not picking one view over another…or stating that that’s the true interpretation etc…



Originally posted by babloyi
Actually, what I gave was a reply to your question "How can the scripture be interpreted in such a way?": I told you it was a simple jump from "The Prophet is the best example to follow" (a paraphrasing of an actual Quranic verse) to "People who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin" (my summary of their interpretation. NOT in any sense scripture).


But the reply you gave to my question, has to be considered a viewpoint which comes from their interpretation of the Quran…and is therefore a valid (or invalid if you prefer) Islamic religious view point, for refusing to wear a hijab…

What you wrote had to considered an Islamic viewpoint, because (A) it’s connected to the Hijab issue and (B) they believe they will be in grave sin if they don’t do “X”; where do they get this sin concept/idea/belief from…?…From the Quran and their interpretation of it…

They don’t want others to fall victim to these types of “Sins”, so they set up a Laws/punishments in relation to it.



Originally posted by babloyi
“Not in any sense scripture”


It doesn’t have to be written as clear as day, it just has to come from someone's interpretation of the scripture. Take for example Christianity and the Trinity. The Trinity isn’t written anywhere in the Bible, and yet it’s an interpretation that is apparently derived from the scriptures…

Anyway, what you gave was another Islamic viewpoint, for why some Muslims believe there should be Laws/punishments for not wearing a hijab…




Originally posted by babloyi
There is no verse saying that people who don't follow the Prophet are in grave sin, that is their interpretation of it.



Exactly; it’s their interpretation and therefore another respective view on Islam and the Quran…


- JC



posted on May, 7 2017 @ 05:37 AM
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The only 'true' islam is not what is written in the koran but what is taught to the people by the imams and what self policing does in islamic communities.

It doesn't matter if the koran would be the wisest book ever written, if there are imams that teach from 'the wrong side of the koran'.
As most muslims have probably not even read the koran but only mindlessly repeated arabic words they don't even understand, plus with a high population with illiteracy in a lot of muslim countries, it makes no difference what the koran says.

It matters how it is interpreted and how the information is spread and then policed among people themselves.

That is why we have a discrepancy between "Islam is the religion of peace", yet we get 'honour' killings, terrorists and gangs of men doing bad things. We hear "women are treated best in the world in islam", yet our eyes and ears see and hear something different. Somewhere someone has interpreted the koran as condoning these and people who don't know any better believe it and follow it blindly.

As to those that constantly go on about christianity being exactly the same.
It's not at the moment. It would be if we let the nutters run the roost [like in islam] and spread hatred and oppression legally and with god's blessing [like in islam].
Fortunately in the west, because of the backing of secular governments and the right for Atheists to exist and voce their rational thinkings , christians can't go 'full mental retard' on us [compared to islam].
But they would try and slowly grow [like islam]. At the moment they are held back by a majority of moderates who were able to hear both sides [unlike in islam].


Point is that ALL beliefs if unchecked will slowly go crazy if they are not constantly counteracted by free speech and opposing views. Islam doesn't allow for that. Nobody is allowed to voice any concerns and the majority believes whatever they are told by their imams, peers and family. That's the true islam.



posted on May, 7 2017 @ 05:39 AM
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a reply to: EasternShadow



Originally posted by EasternShadow
What is the true Islam??

If your question is about today Islam, then you will never get your answer. There are numerous Islamic schools and branches around the world.

en.wikipedia.org...

Each claims represent true ( intrepretation ) Islam. Each has their own thought and may likely contradict with each other ( although they do share some similiarity in general principle ). Generalization in Islamic laws such as this make no sense.





Originally posted by EasternShadow
"True" Islam doesnt exist anymore. Just like Yeshua's "Christian".

There is no such thing as "true" religion anymore.



Ok, there’s no true Islam according to you…


BUT, you also stated this…




Originally posted by EasternShadow
The only true Islam is the one that Muhammad recite aloud ( Quran )





…???



- JC



edit on 7-5-2017 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 7 2017 @ 05:46 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

About as silly as asking what is true Christianity - depends on what sect cult or church you worship with



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