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Im a muslim

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posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 09:47 AM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Actually i wasn't trying to be specific, but rather try to get EVERYONE to focus on the reason for this thread....

it seems to have wandered... due to peoples personal agendas.

[edit on 4-2-2005 by LazarusTheLong]


OK, sounds fair enough




posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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Personally, I dont know why this stupid post isnt in the trash bin allready. The orginal poster has yet to answer any questions, and all this is, is a slug fest. Its a stupid post, with an author that has no intentions of following up on. The sad thing is that this post has generated them this many points. Its crap and should be dumped. 4 PAGES !!!! not one answer. T-R-A-S-H



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by Ryanp5555
By schools i meant in terms of, not evolution vs. creationism as evolution is actually only a theory that not all scientists believe in but i personally do, i think, the state governments down in the south.


No problem. I just here that kinda crap SOOOO often on this board I have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later.....Sorry.

But even including the KKK it seems to me that if I were Black I would worry a lot more about racial profiling and racisim at the workplace and in everyday life instead of a handfull of idiots wearing sheets. There are whites, and blacks too for that matter, that will hate each other no matter what.

But now back on topic



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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thanks for trying to answer for our illusive tomcat...:





You have voted babloyi for the Way Above Top Secret award.





You have voted mpeake for the Way Above Top Secret award


there... i blew my whole wad, to make sure that the efforts of distinctive posters were recognized...
and thumbs up to others that have rallied to the cause of "deny ignorance" and tried to keep a contextual thread.

if you are still out there babyloi
one more question

Specifically, is peace possible with the islamic world, if we insist on remaining open to all religions here?
thank you

[edit on 4-2-2005 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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I thank babloyi for answering in the absence of our poster. In two days and 4 pages, yet to make a response when an open invite to question was posed. Because of this, I'll close the thread. Tomcat ha, if you'd send me a U2U that you'd like it re-opened, and actually answer some of the questions posed, I'll be more than happy to re-open it, but otherwise, it has the appearance of "trolling". babloyi, if you'd wish to start your own thread and answer questions posed to you about being muslim, please feel free to do so....

Thanks.



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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Re-opening as requested by the original poster... Note to author: please read through the thread before replying....thanks!



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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i have read the whole topic a few hours ago now to refresh i will do it again.
I am a sunni muslim. As is my entire family.

I think that iraq is just a war for oil. Its not a war that is against our religion altrough some morons do think that it is.

We consider the ancient moon god as an other pagan god.

Muslim traditions are indeed quite similair to jewish traditions but what exactly is the same and what isnt i do not know.

I think that Jews and christians are believeres who follow the right path but almost fall off. They arent unbelievers and i think most of them go to heaven but its easier for them to get to hell than us. I think hindus are a religion that is either false or that is send by god but thought it was better that they were polytheistic.

The bible has been changed so some information in the bible isnt correct.
We believe that jesus didnt die on the cross because he was switched with someone else. It can be that his mind was switched or his entire body i do not know.

Maybee the current terrorist attack may be done primarly done by muslims but you have to look at the past why it happend.

Muslims conquer city or villiage they spare everyone who surrenders.
Christians take a muslim city or villiage they rape and kill a large ammount of the people.

Muslims do not force non muslims to convert.
Christians did. etc etc etc

I live with non muslims and i think of them as normal humans who havent found the right path.

I think murder for the religion can be justified only when the religion is in danger and as Islam grows with aprox 2.6% each year more than the growth of the world population which is aprox 2.3% it isnt right now.

I havent heared about muslims converting to an other faith. So my knowledge is really lacking in that area.

I do have my conflicts with fellow believers. Like my dad he sees some things other than i do. For example i believe that the majority of the christians and jews are going to heaven. He thinks a much smaller percentage does.

On eternity is again something i do not really know. I havent readed the qu'ran myself as my dad doesnt think im ready. All i know is that after the day of judgement (note that doesnt mean its the end of the earth) the good people go to paradise and bad to hell.

Yes the muslims use a different dating but i use the christian one as that is the one that is used here. Also the dating wasnt made by mohammed himself so it shouldnt be called the muslim dating.
Yes christian dating is quite well known.

Peace with the islamic world? isnt that what we have now? I do not see the west fight a war against islam as then i would have been send to a concentration camp. ( i live in the netherlands)

[edit on 5-2-2005 by tomcat ha]



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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okay, the christians who forced people to follow their religion were terrible men, who you really can't call christians as that was something opposite of what was told of us to do by Jesus. However, Muhammad did force the people, was it in Mecca, to follow his religion, and Muhammad was a prophet, so my question still remains, why/what causes you to believe Muhammad over Jesus, as Jesus is considered a Prophet too and the Messiah, when Jesus says move on ignore when people don't believe. Just because some corrupt people starving for power abused their place and now find themselves in hell most likely said do it, doesn't mean it was the will of God, or the will of TRUE Christianity. Also, I dont see what Christians from England trying to force you guys to convert to christianity like 1000 years ago has to do with the destruction of the World Trade Centers. And another thing, this wasn't a war for oil, it was a war against terrorism... 4% of Americas oil comes from Iraq, so get over it, that is directed to everyone who still believes this is a war for oil.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Ryanp5555]



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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No mohammed didnt force anyone to be muslim. My proof? The Qu'ran says that forcing someone to be muslim makes the conversion false.
I do not believe jesus is a less important prophet than mohammed. Just his message was changed. The most important prophet imho is Abraham as with him all of it started,

The terrorisation of muslims didnt end 1000 years ago it continued right till the first world war. Russia attacked the ottoman empire and killed all muslims. Just like some armenians attacked muslims altrough they now claim that only they were attacked.

I am not totally sure if it was a war for oil. It may just have been an attempt to get a state which helps them in the middle east.

If its for oil then its not for now but when the cheap oil runs out.



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by tomcat ha
The most important prophet imho is Abraham as with him all of it started,

The terrorisation of muslims didnt end 1000 years ago it continued right till the first world war. Russia attacked the ottoman empire and killed all muslims. Just like some armenians attacked muslims altrough they now claim that only they were attacked.

Just to be clear, the Ottoman Turks did something very much like what the Nazis did to the Jews. They tried to exterminate the Armenians. Read the novel 'Musa Dagh' for an account on it.

Also, the first world war, it wasn't really a terrorisation of muslims. The Russians of course were traditional enemies of the Ottomans, but they were hardly 'forced' into the war.

Also, I have to say, on the matter of forced conversions, the Ottomans captured christian children and made them into janissaries. Now, while they probably didn't say 'kid, join or die', the situation is certainly suspicious. However, from what I understand, muslims don't, infact, have massed forced conversionson conquered populations.


the good people go to paradise and bad to hell.

I was under the impression that muslim 'hell' is more like catholic purgatory, ie a place where sinners or whatnot are punished, but purified of their sins and eventually admited into paradise.

Speaking of which, the usual depiction of islamic paradise is that its something like a garden where you get, specifically, 70 virgins. Is this the usual conception of it? What do women expect in paradise? Are men seperated from their wives daughters and sisters in paradise then? The 'virgins' aren't actual people who were once alive no? Wouldn't there be something of a major shortage then?
Christians, for example, usually think of heaven as being a paradisical earth or some sort of perfect like but recognizable existence, when from what I understand of the theology its not anything 'material' like that but rather a perfect, 'unclouded' vision of god itself. Is there a similar variation amoung muslims in these beleifs?
I am not totally sure if it was a war for oil. It may just have been an attempt to get a state which helps them in the middle east.

If its for oil then its not for now but when the cheap oil runs out.



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:59 PM
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There is no proof that armenians were really slaughterd by the ottomans. For example there have been a couple of times to solve the case once and for all and the turks gave theire evidence and the armenians didnt even respond to it.

I think women get the same treatment in paradise as men. I do not know if they were once real people. But what really happens in paradise is something i do now know.



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by tomcat ha
There is no proof that armenians were really slaughterd by the ottomans.

Interseting, I've never seen armenian holocaust denial before, intersting.

I know that the greeks also contend that the Ottomans did a 'genocide' on them, but thats usually seen as being less organized and more along the lines of the serbian ethnic cleansing of ethnic albanians, bosnians, and kosovars, so usually there is something of a dispute over that. But this is an interesting thing too.



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, I have to say, on the matter of forced conversions, the Ottomans captured christian children and made them into janissaries. Now, while they probably didn't say 'kid, join or die', the situation is certainly suspicious. However, from what I understand, muslims don't, infact, have massed forced conversionson conquered populations.

Nygdan, the Ottomans did not really "capture" the Christian children in the truest sense of the word. These children were treated very kindly, fed well and taught. Once they grew up, they were put in special positions in the Ottoman government, some even becoming Grand Viziers. For this reason Christians were usually happy to give their children to become janissaries. There are even occasions where Muslims pretended their children were Christians so that they became janissaries. Ryanp, as tomcat and Nygdan have said, Muslims didn't (AND Muhammad didn't) conquer and convert. In the place that was conquered no one was kept as slaves, no one raped, no one was killed (after the battle was over, that is). There was no burning of Churches and temples. People were allowed to stay in whatever religion they were, and worship whatever they wanted.
Of course, there ARE exceptions (a certain Al-Hakim comes to mind), but you should remember that everyone who calls themself a Muslim is not necessarilly the best example of what a Muslim should be. In that way, I am not too sure about taking Ottoman rulers as Islamic role models. While I am sure that they did alot for culture, science, beauracracy etc, they generally had horrible treatment of women, and placed warcraft a little too high in importance.

[edit on 6-2-2005 by babloyi]



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
[T]he Ottomans did not really "capture" the Christian children in the truest sense of the word. These children were treated very kindly, fed well and taught. Once they grew up, they were put in special positions in the Ottoman government, some even becoming Grand Viziers. For this reason Christians were usually happy to give their children to become janissaries.

Of course, they were raised as muslims, and so were just as willing as muslims to be muslims. Are you saying that if the US kidnapped iraqi children and raised them in seminaries that that'd be a 'clean' conversion?


i-cias.com...
The Janissaries became famous for their military skills, but also because they were staffed by youths conscripted from Christian families in the Balkans. After the conscription they were defined as the property of the sultan, and practically all of them converted to Islam.






There are even occasions where Muslims pretended their children were Christians so that they became janissaries.

Yes, the janissaries became extremely powerful, being a military elite amoung the ottomans.


Ryanp, as tomcat and Nygdan have said, Muslims didn't (AND Muhammad didn't) conquer and convert.
\
Technically I didn't say that. I'm not intimately familiar with the entire situation of the arab expansion and the corresponding and furthering islamic expansion. What I do know is that the tribe mo himself was a part of was basically the first he converted (obviously this didn't require that he 'conquer' them), and hten the other arabs, and then they spread out of arabia and established, effectively, an empire. Subsumed within this empire were arab/iranian/middle eastern christians, jews, pagans, and zoroasterian fire worshippers. Large numbers of these people, obviously, converted to islam, under varying circumstances. Non muslims were what modern man would call 'second class citizens', but I get the impression that they were, overall, treated about as well as anyone would really expect a conquered people to be treated, and there wasn't much if anything like a systematic attempt to eradicate these peoples and faiths. But I won't pretend that an militiaristic empire spreads around a huge swath of the globe without murdering, killing, raping and pillaging all along the way.



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 01:51 PM
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One thing people often ignore when comparing Islam and Christianity is the historical context in which these religions, or more accurately, their prophets and founders, appeared.
Jesus apeared in the midst of two powerful political forces and one mighty military force, Roman Empire and Jews. He chalenged both without having any power to really fight them. It was clear that someone will kill him sooner or later... sooner being a more likely option. He never had a chance to start some kind of violent action against these two. His mission could have only been peaceful and end in tragic death.

Mohammad started his mission at the age of 40 in a very different situation and with a very different reason. At that time, saudi arabia was divided into tribes, who each had their friends and foes amongst eachother. Ther religion was equaly diverse too, each tribe having their own god. Islam served as a tool to unite them.

The two Holy Books are also very different. The New Testament is about the life of Jesus, told by various people at various times and put together in one book.
Qur'an is NOT about the life of Mohammad. Qur'an is about everything that has happened since the creation of universe, all stories, all prophets, many already known from stories in Old Testament. It also talks a lot about the afterlife, judgement day, commandments, what righteous life is and all that. It is supposed to serve as a way to unite all religions, not divide them.
Jesus is in there too, pretty much the same story as in the Bible.


After Mohammads death, when Islam started to spread to other countries, science, literature, astronomy, medicine spread too. So did laws, tolerance, trade and many other things.
It is obvious that backwards primitive versions of Islam we have today in certain countries didn't originate in Qur'an, since they would have been there from the very begining of Islam if Qur'an was the cause of it. The corruption occured later and it was caused by the very thing God warned about many times in Qur'an: power.
One can send peaceful message to people, but not all people will follow it peacefuly. Some will use it as a tool to gain power.
The message of Islam is indeed peaceful, but its followers are just like all other human beings, both good and evil.

This happened to all religions as soon as they became institutionalised. Christianity was a horible, horrible dark force which killed millions of people through centuries, not because of Jesus, but because of man.

So, one can have a Muslim or a Christian name, but that doesn't mean he really understands the religion he belongs to.

Otoman Empire was just like any other empire. They conquered, did some evil, but also did some good.
Bosnian Muslims used to be a pagan/christian sect called Bogumili. They were very much hated by their neighbours, catholics and ortodox christians. Their mass conversion to Islam was the only way to save themselves from certain death in the name of Jesus. They got protection from Ottoman Empire, and the serbs never forgot that. 500 years later they tried to finish the job.

Anyways, what I am trying to say is that when discussing religion one should make difference between discussing theological aspect, the Holy Books of various religions, and discussing their followers.
Actions of followers are not necesarily justified by their Holy Books.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 01:09 PM
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well said paperclip


let me pose a real thunker...

the "bible" that we know today is really just a fillited PC version that is acceptable to all the christian scholoars of the 1500's.

the many controversial chapters were dispensed with, as being tainted or just plain contrary to the "gist".

there are some that think we ought to filet it again, to remove the obvious scientifically proven untruths....

do you think the Qur'an could use the the same type of cleanup?

I have heard from many scholars and theologins that say the Qur'an was tainted by the many struggles and wars of that time, to the point where many verses are focused to much about "winning against your enemy" for it to be useful in peacetime, or as a book to encourage peace...

they also mentioned that these verses are seen from contemporary Islam as being of little importance in context... but they are misquoted often by fundamentalists...

a little cleanup could clear up a lot of misperceptions about islam... would contemporary muslims be agains't this...?



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong


do you think the Qur'an could use the the same type of cleanup?




hmm now there is an interesting question.

A cleanup in a sense of changing Qur'an is not possible. Muslims believe that Qur'an is the word of God that should not be changed, it is one of the fundamental beliefs of Islam.
Personaly, I don't think that Qur'an is the problem. I've read it carefuly several times, and one thing is clear: war is seen as the last resort, not the first choice when dealing with enemy.
The problem are other books that go along with it, like certain Hadiths for example. They are the source of confusion and misinterpretation.

You compare it with the cleanup of christianity. True, some things have been cleaned up, but imo, that was not the reason christians "calmed down", the reason was that Christianity turned from all-controling tool of power to personal religion, it became less practical, less controlling, and more spiritual and personal. Of course, not completely, but the church, the institution of religion, has lost its power.

It is a fight between collective thinking, led by religious institutions, and individualism, a personal choice of religion.

Such thing is needed in Islam, and it has already hapened in several muslim countries, like Egypt, Turkey, Bosnia, partially in Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia.

Keep in mind, there are one billion muslims on this planet, only a small minority are extremists. Muslims live diferently then western people, but they do not feel opressed in any way. It is their choice to live that way, according to their beliefs (no alcohol, no pornography, no stupid reality shows, etc, etc).
That is different then western civilisation, but it is not wrong or primitive.
Islam in not seen as just religion, but also as guidance to righteous life in this world. If people chose to live that way, it is their choice. As long as it stays a personal individual choice all is good. They should not be forced to change their life just because people in some other country see their lifestyle as "primitive".



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 03:19 PM
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47: 2. Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the way of ALLAH - HE renders their works vain.

47: 5. And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, by causing great slaughter among them, bind fast the fetters - then afterwards either release them as a favour or by taking ransom - until the war lays down its burdens. That is the ordinance. And if ALLAH had so pleased, HE could have punished them Himself, but HE has willed that HE may try some of you by others. And those who are killed in the way of ALLAH - HE will never render their works vain.

47: 20. Know, therefore, that there is no god other than ALLAH, and ask protection for thy human frailties, and for believing men and believing women. And ALLAH knows the place where you move about and the place where you stay.

I took these qutoes from Medeival qu'ran?


Cant say its a nice religion you beleive in. In fact reading www.hti.umich.edu... I dont know what this topic is about. Everyone can read this junk for themselves.

Islam is immoral. Christianity is probably just as immoral, I dont know I have never read the bible. I dont know what the Jewish people beleive in either.

Im not religious, I am a non beleiver. I guess im destined for hell. Thanks for the good wishings. Nice person you must be. I guess allah is going to sodomize me and chastize me only to send me to hell anyways for punishment.

Koran is filled with such wonderful happy peaceful things too
I mean you should read this to your children. Teach them all of these wonderful moral beleifs.





posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 03:37 PM
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A clean up. Here is a thought if you are not a Muslim or a Christian discussing a clean-up of our Holy Books is simply an insult. If you are a Christian or a Muslim - shame on you for your lack of education. Is the insult highly regarded? It is the same coming from a man or woman who not knowing how to fight wishes to point out how you shoul've thrown your left instead of your right. Unknowledgeable opinions or insults never matter in the first place for they are merely words spoken by individuals who lack in the very thing they criticize.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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I have a question i annoy my muslim mates by asking questions all the time so lets see how you do.

Why do women generally wear robes and some around covering there whole bodies


Also in reply to before most of the terrorists that have affected britain in recent times(from what i know i may be wrong) have been irish



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