IRA withdraws disarmament offer

Freedom from what celticniall? Are your rights restricted in some way? Is your freedom of speech and right to free movement curtailed for some reason?
You or i have no proof or knowlage that the IRA didnt do the bank job any more than we dont know it was the UVF/MI5 that did the deed. All we have are a set of beliefs based upon personal experience and conditioning.
What you or i "believe" dont make it so. All we can do is offer an opinion because the only ones who do know are the guys that did it.
Unless you have uncontravertable proof to the contrary?

Originally posted by spacemunkey
So what they funding now??? nice shiny new guns??? - to replace the ones they have decomissioned?

Look, the point I am trying to make is that there is two sides to this conflict, yet most people are sucked in by all the British and American propaganda. The Loyalists are still murdering, robbing, dealing drugs, ect, but according to many, they are doing no harm...I ask you, what are they funding????????
The IRA were about to make the final step towards peace in NI, and do you not think that it is a strange thing that just then a huge heist is blamed on the IRA? I am not stupid to assume that the IRA would be on ceasefire for this long, and be on the final stretch for peace, and mess it all up by robbing a bank.....come on.......!!!! WHY mess it all up?? If the IRA were not committed to peace, they would not have ahad a ceasefire for this long...why bother???

I ask you spacemunkey, where is the logic in robbing the bank right when you are about to do a deal to end hostilities forever? The IRA were committed, this smells of conspiracy.

Do you deny the IRA havent dealt drugs and robbed banks to fund themselves?
The pendulem swings both ways dosent it? Do you deny that punishment beatings still happen in Northern Ireland by both sides? Do you deny that the IRA has in the past and still does use illegal acts just like the Unionists to make money?


[edit on 3-2-2005 by Janus]

Originally posted by Janus
Freedom from what celticniall? Are your rights restricted in some way? Is your freedom of speech and right to free movement curtailed for some reason?
You or i have no proof or knowlage that the IRA didnt do the bank job any more than we dont know it was the UVF/MI5 that did the deed. All we have are a set of beliefs based upon personal experience and conditioning.
What you or i "believe" dont make it so. All we can do is offer an opinion because the only ones who do know are the guys that did it.
Unless you have uncontravertable proof to the contrary?

I never said I had proof......but I have seen nor heard any evidence from anyone to say that they did it....yet it is being made public that they did......do we not have a right to evidence before making a judgement?

I just think it strange that there is so many people saying they did it, that public oppinion is right where the Loyalist and Unionist parties want it to be.

Dont be a sheep and believe everything you read and hear, most of it is lies and Government propaganda..!!!!!!

Originally posted by Janus
Do you deny the IRA havent dealt drugs and robbed banks to fund themselves?

Not one bit, I agree that they do, but so do others, and that is my point!

But how do we sort the wheat from the chaf? Who decides what is the right info and what is propaganda? The government? sinn fein? Me? You?
Perhaps Northern Ireland is such a web of bluff and double bluff that the people who put out this info dont know what the truth is any more.
Perhaps its all true or perhaps its all lies, or perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between.
Propaganda is a tool used by both sides, Sinn Fien can spin a story just as good as the Unionists. But by refusing to decomission their arms they put us all in danger.

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Janus]

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Janus]

Yes, I agree that its both sides of the paramilitaries that are involved in the illegal activities not just the IRA. But they are both supposed to be committed to a negotiated solution, not an armed one.

IMHO the terrorist groups in NI like the power they wield and dont want to give it up, so they intimidate the population. its gone beyond the IRA and its freedom fighters and the UDA et al set up to defend loyalists, its gone to the point were they just operate to make money out of misery in the name of their causes as a front.

Originally posted by spacemunkey
Yes, I agree that its both sides of the paramilitaries that are involved in the illegal activities not just the IRA. But they are both supposed to be committed to a negotiated solution, not an armed one.

IMHO the terrorist groups in NI like the power they wield and dont want to give it up, so they intimidate the population. its gone beyond the IRA and its freedom fighters and the UDA et al set up to defend loyalists, its gone to the point were they just operate to make money out of misery in the name of their causes as a front.

Quite true, and I would have to agree with this assessment. It began with one thing and turned into another, I suppose they are making too much money now to just give it all up. Its like any illegal operation, whether it be drugs, people smuggling, etc, they do it for the money.

It's a sad situation in NI and I was so hoping that they would find a resolution to suit both sides, but it may never to be. I just pray to God that it doesn't revert back to the old days, I lived through some of it, and it was scary.

That is something we can agree on celticniall, i too pray it doesnt start all over again, Northern Ireland has come so far it would terrible for it all to be for nothing.

[edit on 3-2-2005 by Janus]

So far as the only person actaully from northern ireland on this topic, id like to say that The IRA have no cause, perhaps back in the day when they were formed there was, now days they are thugs drug peddlers amongst other things, same goes for the other side. this recent issue is no more than a silly tantrum from thugs feeling the end in sight.

as for a while back some guy said if anything like that happened in your country ud be a member of the IRA to, thats rediculous, we (catholics) are not oppressed, and although we are governed by the Uk and this is perhaps slightly annoying, the Uk are not trying to blow us up. if u joined ud be no more than a drug dealing murderer

Originally posted by Cs_Exile
So far as the only person actaully from northern ireland on this topic

You are not the only person from Northern Ireland on this topic, as I stated earlier, I also hail from the North.

I too am from the north of Ireland, Northern Ireland or however you wish to describe the bit at the NE top of the Irish land-mass.

It's my view that some people here in Ireland are taking their time coming to terms with what the 'GFA' (Good Friday Agreement) actually means.

Regardless of the 'internal' political situation here in NI the GFA is an internationally binding treaty between the UK and RoI. Constitutions were changed and new relationships formed.
Neither the UK nor the RoI are the 'powers' they were 30yrs ago.
Times have changed and there is no going back.

As both the UK and RoI are full members of the EU the human rights of all of the people of each are greater than they have ever been before, irrespective of which jurisdiction the people come under.....

.....and the outside US & EU involvement helps keep the 2 national govs 'honest' in all of this IMO.

There will never again be a sectarian 'protestant state' in the north, never.....and good riddence to it, even for the prod people it brought the majority of them nothing but isolation and disaster.

In some respects it is true we have also been here before. Talks have broken down before during this process and the IRA have back-tracked.

I wouldn't worry too much, right now the IRA is just very pis*ed off that everyone (and I mean everyone, except them and their support) is saying they did the £26million bank robbery that was recently carried out in Belfast.

We have been here before, IRA denials which subsequently turned into an admission of an 'operation unapproved by the leadership'.
The murder of Garda McCabe (a policeman from the Irish republic) being a case in point.

(....and it's also true, in fairness, that they have been blamed for things in the past which turned out not to be them too. It's just that when you have the gov of the Republic of Ireland as adament as the British gov that they did it you pay a little more attention to what is being said.)

It may be that this was an act of bravado to calm their membership who are said to be very unhappy at the stalled political process despite significant IRA 'movement' and pledges.

Others point to this 'movement' and these proposed pledges being nothing like enough - whether it is ground-breaking and unheard of for the IRA or not.

At other times it is unionist's and loyalists pis*ed off at what they are being asked to do.

That is the nature of trying to resolve this deep-seated issue.

Unionists will have to genuinely share power with nationalists and republicans and republicans must give up their 'armed wing' and engage solely through the mechanisms of the 'state'.

In a normal democratic society it cannot be any other way, as everyelse is rightly saying.

Great efforts have been made in recent years to bring a more even situation in NI to be. Nationalists and repubicans are not facing anything like the situation they faced in the late 1960's.
Whatever justice the nat/rep 'case' once had - and personally I believe they did have some justice in their case - it does not exist now IMO.

Certainly IMO there is nothing like a sufficient 'case' that could be made to justify any return to an armed conflict/terrorism.

But my money is on nothing much happening until after the UK general election in may (which will see voting across NI for the general election and the local authority positions too).

After may?
Hmm, some are talking about major movement but as ever with NI it's a case of 'we shall see'.

Personally I do not believe that a return to war is possible even if the will is there post 9/11.
Besides being completely insane IMO the support the IRA had from the US would be an illegal fraction of what it once was and they would be throwing away all the - very substantial - work and achievements made in the last 7yrs.

Although some members of the IRA have apparantly been talking about desiring a return to 'war' the case for this would be more threadbare than at any time since partition IMO and it is generally reported and thought not to be a widespread opinion within the IRA.

The people of Ireland north and south do not want a return to conflict, quite the opposite in fact; when all of the people of Ireland voted for the 'Good Friday Agreement' they voted for normal politics within NI just like everywhere else has in the developed western world, if NI is to unite with the Irish republic it will be through peaceful consent, not force.....

..... and seeing as it took approx 800yrs to get here is a just settlement the kind of thing people should expect to happen quickly?
Bit by bit things have been getting better. I don't expect this all to be resolved quickly certainly not in less than maybe 10 - 25yrs, if not a bit longer.

The IRA (and all the various groups pertaining to all of this situation) cannot ignore the will of the people.

I'm all for a border poll to see where we stand at the moment and I am quite convinced that at some point in the not too distant future NI will vote to become one with the RoI.....

....but I wonder how the IRA would feel about running an all-Ireland poll on whether they should pack-up and finish once and for all?
I wonder how they'd respond with talk of 'the people of Ireland' then, hmmm?

Whatever the disagreements the fact remains that 30yrs of the most terrible conflict did not resolve anything, IMO the least we can do is see if at least 30yrs of honest effort will not bring about a proper and sustainable peaceful resolution to this sad situation.


[edit on 4-2-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

More info released by the Independant Monitoring Commission......

Sinn Fein leaders 'backed raids'

Here's the Link.

Sinn Fein leaders backed raids

Still all heresay so far.......

I have to say, that without showing proof of guilt, I will still believe that Sinn Fein and the IRA have not done this, but I will change my views if such evidence is released to the public which proves me wrong. So far its all : he said this , they said that, and a group of people got together and said something else.


I still think this is orcestrated to discredit the IRA and Sinn Fein.

Stealing 25 million quid would be a hell of a way of discrediting someone, i can think of less risky ways of doing that, but i take your point.