schools must allow for minority students to speak in ebonics

Whapp'n? cool runn'n mon, we's be ire mon.

Edit: I guess that was more Jamaican than Ebonics, although I don't know the difference.

a reply to: iTruthSeeker

I bet this black guy has achieved more then you, makes more money and had more beautiful women while traveling the world, then you.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

So your going to defend this statement?

I'm sorry, its Black America that tells young kids to not do "white things" to be succesful, which is probably why a low percentage of Black America is successful.

If you dont see how what he said is racist i suggest you take your advice and just not discuss it. You show a lack of even basic compassion. Black parents dont teach there kids not to do "white things" whatever that is. Ygis was probably the most racist thing ive seen on this thread but by all means defend it. i suggest you seem reasonable and may want to rethink your position since you nor i would have a clue what parents teach their kids.

originally posted by: AnkhMorpork
Whapp'n? cool runn'n mon, we's be ire mon.

Edit: I guess that was more Jamaican than Ebonics, although I don't know the difference.

Jamaican is just another dialect thats all.

a reply to: dragonridr

Ire.

this liberal racism is rather malicious taking advantage of black sensitivity towards discrimination and racism to disenfranchise black students by easing away from guidance and proper education, congratulations for ruining even more black futures whoever wanted this.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: prepared4truth
This has to be one of the most insanely close-minded OPs I've ever come across on this site. I get more and more disappointed every time I login here.

Well since people who can't speak "proper English" are just stupid and lazy, how about this...

How about I tell you to go work in the sun all day, every day, and cut off your access to sun screen? Oh, you must just be too genetically recessive and lazy to absorb sunlight like all the other dark skinned people of the world!

I thought our motto was to deny ignorance, not bathe in it.

No.

The idea is that they be allowed to speak and write it all the time in place of professional English because it would be racist to expect them to do otherwise.

Every other group is expected to learn and use professional English in school. It's not that they're expected to give up their old language or dialect, merely that the school's job is to prepare them for the working/professional world. The reality is that Ebonics are not used in that world, so the student needs to learn to be fluent in professional English alongside Ebonics and how to switch between them as appropriate like every other student with either a dialect or second language is expected to do.

What does that say to you that we want to carve out an exception only for African-American kids? To me, it sort of looks bad like we don't expect them to learn when I know they can.

Of course Black people CAN learn English. But most don't want to. Why tf would Blacks want to learn the language of their oppressors? Why would they want to assimilate into "the professional world" that doesn't accept them for who they are? And on top of that, why is it a reality that Ebonics aren't used in the "professional world"? You're telling me that the only professional world in America is the one that White men acknowledge and can communicate in? GTFOH.

The arrogance. Ebonics is not a second language for Black people. It is the closest thing Black people have to their first. And it's not just the OP, it's the smug remarks of everybody on this site claiming that Black people are "too far gone" and evolving backwards and stupid and lazy and yadda yadda yadda. The nerve! As if Western society holds some perfect standard of progress... Western society is the reason this planet is about to be destroyed under the weight of our hubris.

I'm just really wondering how these people, which may include you, can strip the culture from a people before subjecting them to the most inhumane subjugation ever seen on the planet, then telling them to pull themselves up by the bootstrap before finally saying "Screw it, we've done all we can." It's almost like these people aren't human and have no real connection to the planet or people they are going around "conquering".

To you, it looks like Blacks aren't expected to learn but to me, it looks like you are trying to perpetuate the imposition of a language that is foreign onto people in the name of the status quo staying alive.

Is Ebonics the same as what used to be called jive talk back in the 70s? I think it should be treated like textese, it is ok to do it, just don't do it in more formal situations, e.g. When filling in a form or writing to someone or communicating to work colleagues/bosses. It is not about oppression, it is about learning how to communicate with others, which is in fact the opposite of oppression as it expands your ability to communicate with more groups of people, be that domestic or foreign.

As English has been adopted as the common language for communication of a large percentage of countries, it is important that everyone learns the same language/rules/spelling or others will just not understand you. So what we have to ask is do you want to expand your circle of friends/job opportunities/appreciation of other cultures by being able to successfully communicate, or do you refuse to speak/write correctly and keep yourself locked within the only community that can understand what you are saying.

You refuse to accept it?

What are you going to do about it other than verbally oppose it? What can you do? What power do you have?

a reply to: EvillerBob

I believe that when I stated they were to learn and understand English that includes being able to speak it fluently

I dont know why you thought that "learning" a language doesn't include speaking it ?

I have no idea why you drew that conclusion but hey we are only human !

why is everyone of the idea that learning ebonics is somehow negative , just because its not as complex as English ? because its formed from colloquialism's ?

Look I studied higher English in high school in Scotland , but we were also taught "auld scots" along side of our normal English lessons, we studied Robert Burns , you know who that is ? yeh exactly one of the worlds most renowned bards, yeh that song you sing every new year Burns! and its #in bastardised English
Ok so one of the worlds most famous poets wrote all of his poems in Auld scots which is nothing more than a bastardisation of the English language and exactly what ebonics is.

It never served to keep me back or made me dumb , or anyone else in my class for that matter as 85% of the class passed higher English with a B or higher.
We learned to read auld scots poems and learn the words and their actual english equivalents and it was good to learn about your roots and where these differences came from , the regions where the words took their origin and words that were not in the English language but were still taken from Gaelic .

So dont try to diminish the importance of language and its cultural significance to people of a racial minority
quite alot of the western world speaks in ebonics whether you care to admit it or not in some form of cultural appropriation through hip hip there are white kids the world over , hell even japanese , korean , russian , iranian , bangladeshi, thai, malay, kids talking in ebonics due to hiphop and the spread of that culture as well as breakdancing culture on a global scale
these kids speak like black kids do and its accepted because they are a part of that culture , breakdancing, popping and locking etc.

a reply to: CthulhuMythos

funny you say that because despite the language barrier in the global break dance phenomenon people of all colours and walks of life who dance, can easily communicate using street talk !
it's not limiting your ability to communicate its increase your ability to communicate , the more words you know formal or informal is better than knowing fewer words!

a reply to: prepared4truth

So, you would be against learning to speak, read and write in English, because you believe that it is a tool of an oppressor? I wonder then, why it was that America, a nation of people who had been oppressed with British guns, sought to take up the tools of their oppressors, the better to prevent their enslavement by a regime which cared nothing for them, sought it so hard, that the founders of the nation itself enshrined in its constitution the right to keep and bear those arms?

I wonder also, what it was that inspired Martin Luther King Jnr to learn to speak such perfect, beautiful English, the better to battle the tyrannical behaviour of the fundamentalist right during the civil rights movement? Surely, if your argument had any merit whatsoever, America would have shunned the gun, and MLK would have refused to orate in such astoundingly wonderful fashion?

It must also be said, that not only is your argument flawed, but if people in history had thought as you do, the present we are living in today would be a very different, and almost certainly worse place, with regards to rights and the way they are distributed amongst populations. It is certain that things could be better than they are, but the way that happens is by way of engagement, not division, education, not ignorance, a preparedness to share in common with others, language, music, theatre, culture itself. Cutting oneself off from ones fellow human beings, regardless of their colour of skin, or their political views, even refusing to engage with the language spoken in common with others, cannot do anything but harm a community, increase the level to which it is cut off from others. Being ostracised by those around you is a terrible thing, but it is far harder to correct a scenario in which you ostracise yourself.

The most inspiring and powerful figures in civil rights in the last hundred years, would not agree with your position on these matters, and the proof is that they stood out in the open, used the language you eschew as a weapon of liberation, in fact campaigned to ensure that people from their communities could have equal access to the education which permitted them to form arguments and persuade detractors. They did so, precisely because they knew that far from being a tool to oppress their communities with, a grasp of the language being spoken around them, was a shield against improper treatment, would give them better access to and understanding of the law, would permit them to make for themselves better careers, access higher education with more regularity, and free those people from the chains about their wrists, the better that they could make their way in the world, and gain the respect they deserved from those around them.

And here you are, crapping on their efforts? Without those efforts, those who used the language you eschew to power through the lies that were being told about people of colour, without the language MLK used to prove to the unenlightened, that actually, the people of colour were smart, capable, and hardworking, rather than accepting the evil propaganda of the KKK, without the language that civil rights leaders used to organise and inspire generations of young people of colour, the plight of that broader community in this day and age would be utterly appalling, would never have stepped out of the shadow of oppression during the civil rights era.

If you want to keep yourself in the dark, that is your lookout, but I find it highly inadvisable to propagate the idea that your choice has any logical merit to it, or will provide protection from oppression nearly as well as a proper grounding and a good education in communication with ALL members of the greater community of the world. In order that what communication occurs be of a high quality and well understood outside of the rarefied confines of one community, one must accept that standardised language is necessary and desirable. A solid ability to read, write and speak English as she is known throughout more than half the world, is a gateway far more akin to a ticket to freedom, than it ever is another shackle around a pair of ankles.

I've noticed a few accusations of racism being thrown around and some enlightening explanations of Black or African American culture and its development in America.

What I don't see is any acknowledgment of the white ancestry of black Americans. They share ancestors with white Americans. Their forefathers might have been at the Battle of Hastings, fought in the Hundred Years War or the Wars of the Roses, enjoyed going to see the plays of Shakespeare, lived through the English Civil War and the French Revolution.

That's their history too. A couple of hundred years ago the European and African lines merged to create the people we have today, and both lines are equally valid.

Without the obvious difference in skin colour I wonder integration would have been easier?

I don't think black Americans are doing themselves any favours by rejecting anything they see as too white or the language of their oppressors. They are the sons and daughters of the oppressors not just the children of the enslaved.

European history is, perhaps, far better documented than that of Africa and possibly that seems unfair to a person who wants to discover where they come from but only wishes to investigate one side of the story.

But, just a couple of hundred years ago our white grandparents were living together and having experiences in common. Nowadays, their descendants (us) cannot communicate, or are reluctant to, because we've been so successfully alienated from each other.

I call shenanigans.

ETA - I'm not ignoring the whole issue of slavery, I just had this particular point to make.

I have no problem with different variations in communication whatsoever.

In fact, learning different English and Language Variants helps expand my knowledge of People and World in which I inhabit.

Maybe more folks prefer their comfort zones, whereas I tend to explore a bit more....Dunno. Not really that important.

I live in a multicultural area, and while there are conversations outside my window that I simply cannot decipher because it's a unique style amoungst friends, whenever I see my neighbors face to face they have no problem switching to a more "conventional and accepted" linguistic familiarity in order to share pleasantries.

While I don't think students should necessarily be encouraged to speak Ebonics in the classroom exclusively, I also don't think there should be any formal reprimands for students who may no be able to make the dialectic transition as easily as others.

Every student moves at their own pace, and not everyone has the same destiny in life.

Encourage students to their absolute best potential always, but don't mock or exclude those who have a harder time learning the rope and complexities of the more "formal" English language.

I've seen enough Native English Speakers who can't properly conjugate verbs or wrangle pronouns and who still struggle with common homophones when communicating in a written format, and nothing is funnier than reading their outraged comments about how "formal education is so important" and "adherence to the proper language" is the only thing still holding the Country together.

To borrow a Southern Conjugate in order to illustrate the point here :

If Y'all'd've* known how silly you all look, y'all'd've paid more attention in class.

( * You would have )

a reply to: GENERAL EYES

I think it is important to differentiate between a formal reprimand, and locating a weakness in a persons education and slamming data into that void with increased fervour.

It is important to make this distinction, because students who show a lack of engagement with the material, will have to be placed in a situation by the educator, where they have greater access to information to help them assimilate the data, which often feels like a reprimand, but is actually the opposite. If anything, opening up greater resources to those individuals, will see them actually having better and greater access to education, than those around them, and it ought to be received as such.

originally posted by: SBMcG

i have as much (if not more) "imagination" than anyone you know. If I didn't, I would not be successful at what I do for a living.

The bottom line is, this is about race, social meddling by the Left, and the reality of the market place.

If I chose to mongrelize a language like Swahili, are you telling me employers should go out of their way to accommodate me on the grounds that even though I was utterly useless to them as an employee, my incomprehensible babbling was simply a "rich outpouring of human cognitive process"?

You're so funny! Lol! I'm amazed at your capacity to briefly regard a comment and then determine the creative capacity of that person along with those of their aquaintances. Now that is imaginitive prowess if I've ever seen it!

If your imagination is truly so remarkable then I suggest using it to decipher the "incomprehensible babble". I can't believe people are so (deliberately?) obtuse that dey (that's "they" for the uninitiated) can't figure out what others are saying. Perhaps all one needs is a little exposure to someone different from him/her and some small effort.

I have had meaningful conversations with people who speak a minescule amount of heavily accented English (as a second language), and therefore know that communication can be achieved through understanding cues/tone, good listening skills, noting gestures and facial expressions, and a good-natured desire to get some communication going. Humans are highly communicative beings if they put in (the smallest amount) of effort.

I previously taught English as a second language. I approached each student as an eager and worthy learner, regardless of their home language, with great success. If teachers approached their students more respectfully, I am convinced their students would be more engaged and eager to learn. Instead, students are hit with stony faced "we are here to help you" educators who tell them they are babbling incomprehensibly. What makes you think this is the proper way for a person in authority to approach a youth placed in his/her care?

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Maybe she was Jamexican?

Gotta love those jerk chicken tacos!

originally posted by: prepared4truth
Ebonics is not a second language for Black people. It is the closest thing Black people have to their first.

That's a disputed view. Ebonics is an American thing. It is a a variety of English that built up due to the problems (in the US) of race integration. Essentially, black people talk like that because they don't mix with the wider society. Ebonics is just another badge of difference.

The problem that I (and others) have highlighted in just talking Ebonics is that people self isolate. These people don't get jobs in mainstream society because that cannot be understood. That is not a fault of society, it is the fault of the person doing the speaking for not learning the mainstream language, which (in this case) is American English.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Maybe she was Jamexican?

Gotta love those jerk chicken tacos!

Jeez gotta experiment with that, that is so American ex, an original Italian pizza for instance was just basic dough sauce and cheese , NY and Chicago got their hands on it, and nothing was the ever he same..

a reply to: paraphi

I think the hardest for me anyway to understand in black community is the Atlanta accent with ebonics

Atlanta has some of the hardest accents , its really challenging to understand at first but once you pick up on certain words its fine.

Now I'm pretty good at understanding people because you just pay them undivided attention , but I couldn't understand my flat mate Patrick when he was drunk , his English just got worse as he continued , his thick Irish accent turned into this drawl that was so hard to follow.

speaking of mixing foods, I love Mexican lasagne, basically lasagne with diced Habanero Chillis and crushed tortilla chips on top with loads of melted cheese EPIC

I love mixing cultural foods as I do enjoy mixing colloquialisms.

Have you seen kids from England who speak with a mixture of either Jamaican patwois, Carribean slang , and even use some what I can only assume came from African glottal clicks , you know what Im talking about its like a click they use when someone is trying to PAR them off.

Lets face it we have a melting pot of language intermixed over time just like our genes, language especially the English language will continue to evolve so we should with it.