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schools must allow for minority students to speak in ebonics

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posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:17 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

Excellent posts fella, I'd be interested in seeing any decent argument to refute your points.




posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:20 AM
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The saddest part is that these universities are doing the greatest disservice to the minority communities that they seem to care so much about, by knowingly pushing ignorant and dangerous views to their students. No wonder they want free tuition, no person in their right mind would pay money for this crap.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:32 AM
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a reply to: Spider879

I understand its not their official language and they use English , I was making the point that to ignore it would serve only to devalue the importance of it culturally.
I didn't know they export English teachers , that's pretty cool , and lends credence to the ability to non native English speakers to uphold the values of a foreign language that's cool!
Also the fact they chose to use Spanish also is really cool , Go Jamaica !


Ebonics has a cultural value , what difference does it make if these kids are learning English ,understanding English ,using English but are also allowed to embrace their cultural heritage any time they like.
They are children , shouldn't children have the option to be able to dip in and out of their roots when they see fit so long as they are not misunderstood and are not causing harm to others , where is the issue?
I think maybe far too many educators are taking this too seriously, should it not be more important for them to learn their own roots as well as how to speak the basic universal language of the world.

No lets just focus on them learning only English and forget them ever daring to consider embracing their roots and learning about their own history.

Is it simply because Ebonics is a language birthed from black origins that western society doesnt want it being used in schools , because it seems blatantly obvious that some people think that its not good enough or less important than English ?

let me remind you we only speak English as the way of business because the Empire conquered 75% of the world and forced people to use it literally at gun point!

I think the more we do to preserve our ability to speak in different tongues the better we can understand each other
sounds counter intuitive but I think its a good idea.

,

sorry Spider alot of this post is in reply to the thread in general , I often go on a bit of a tangent , so Im not talking directly to you throughout my post but just emptying my mind so apologies





edit on 27-4-2017 by sapien82 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:35 AM
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a reply to: Mclaneinc

So you are saying Ebonics has no place in education , even history class ?

it has no cultural importance worth learning about ?
so we should just ignore it then ?



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:44 AM
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a reply to: grainofsand

Thank you grainofsand. I appreciate your sentiment regarding the argument I have put forward.

It is very important, in my view, that the language as it is today, be considered on its modern merits and uses, since they differ so vastly from their original purpose, and since those purposes are so vital, becoming ever more so as technology and science evolve and guide international development.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:45 AM
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originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Mclaneinc

So you are saying Ebonics has no place in education , even history class ?

it has no cultural importance worth learning about ?
so we should just ignore it then ?


I never said anything of the sort which always annoys me just a bit. I purely was talking about the English language as its taught in schools. History is another matter and I guess that is down to the school but if we look at it from the POV of this thread where you have people speaking like "Dey Leakin' ' instead of saying "they are bleeding" then I see zero point in teaching about that even in history, personally that is history people should be trying to forget.

I just read TrueBrits superb breakdown on the localisation and development (or lack of) the standard English language and it was spot on, that is the stuff we should be thinking about and why this is important.

We may have had our differences in a thread TrueBrit but I ALWAYS support good hard fact and common sense as well as well written posts and that was all 3



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:48 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

What a croc depending on what country defines what is standard english it varies drastically. There is no universal standard just depends on what country you study. For example scottish standard english is alot diffrent from what's called general american. Even when i went to Australia they spoke quite a bit different than when i went to ireland. Every english speaking country has variations and local dialects as well. Now your doing a straw man as well no where did the article mention replacing english. They are talking about using ebonics to help teach. If for example you learned from your parents a certain way to talk,however it wasnt "standard english as you put it" Than everything you attempt to do will be wrong. You wont really understand why of course because no one explains it to you. So what happens you assume you're too stupid for this and you give up.

Now you could have a genius level IQ contrary to what many racists claim here. But do to luck of the draw was from disadvantaged area. If someone takes the time to teach you you could go on to be a rocket scientists. But hurting your self esteem over an issue you were not even aware of your stuck at burger king.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:50 AM
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a reply to: ParasuvO




posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 07:52 AM
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a reply to: dreamlotus1111
Haha..."pisses off white people."

Why are so many people on ATS so quick to pull the race card--it's worse than soccer players who fall down and fake pain and injury if another player incidentally bumps into them on the field.

Like I said in another comment on this thread, outside of school, with friends, at home, in the community, at the grocery store, while buying new tires, while planting strawberries, while having one's mail delivered, ebonics and any other sort of sub-dialect of any language is perfectly fine and I have no problem with it (and I'm a white guy...*gasp!*).

The problem arises when some undergrad interviews three people who feel marginalized in some way when correct English is spoken, and that is used to make a call for a sub-dialect to be an officially acknowledged language in the school system.

I have no problem with different dialects that permeate American culture, but to pretend that they're languages that should be officially recognized and catered to in the American school system is absurd, especially when it is based on interviewing three people.

You paint an ignorant picture as to why I'm arguing against ebonics being an accepted language in the school system--it's almost as if the only problem that you have with my stance is that I'm white, and you feel like that gives you an opening to blanket insult me and all white people.

Do you even care or acknowledge how asinine and illogical that approach is to this debate?


edit on 27-4-2017 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 08:22 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Ive seen several in here make it about race. Like when they say thugs or drug dealers. Is ebonics only a black thing??? No, For one thing, not all African Americans speak Ebonics, and not all Ebonics speakers are African American. A significant number of whites, Hispanics, and Asian Americans who live and work closely together speak dialects that can be characterized as black English. As linguists study they find that, just like standard English, it is not monolithic, but comes in flavors and varieties. In addition, as I’ve indicated above, mainstream English has borrowed heavily from the speech of African Americans. So, in many ways, it is easier to conceive of all the dialects of English as variable and continuous, rather than categorical and separate. For another thing, the problems Ebonics speakers face are shared by speakers of other nonstandard dialects as well, whether they live in the inner city, in rural America, or even in the suburbs. Issues in Ebonics and the educational achievement of students cut across the school curriculum. You need to have a clear understanding of standard english to excel in things such as math and science. Now if i teacher learns about ebonics to help a child learn english this advances their education. At present, however, it appears that few teachers are prepared to teach students about language variation or even to respond to evidence of it in ways that support students' language development and academic achievement. Then testing we should account for syntactic contrasts among varieties of English to psychometric constructs, such as basic word lists that are incorrectly assumed to be understood across social groups; and to testing conditions that may have different meanings for different groups.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

dragonridr, that is NOT what is being suggested.

The suggestion made by the article is NOT about how a piece of information is delivered, but which information is being taught. You cannot tell me that teaching kids AAV or BEV has the same multi-faceted use as teaching them standard English, without seriously missing the point of teaching them English in the first place.

As I have said before, English may have been taken up by huge numbers of people because of imperialist expansion, and that is to the great shame of every Briton who respects their Celtic roots more than their Latin ones. However, the modern era does not use English because it is the language of conquest, but because it creates, as I have already stated, a linguistic bridge between peoples which has no equal on all the world, in terms of its effectiveness and breadth of use.

Once again, I am not suggesting that these vernaculars ought not be taught at all, but they should be separate lessons, not shoehorned in alongside formal English.

And for your information, the Scots learn the precise same dictionary full of words as English pupils, from their English language classes. They learn the regional variations on the streets and from their parents and peers, but the language they are actually taught, in class, is ENGLISH, the same as I learned at school, all the way at the other end of the British Isles.

Further to that, your analogy about an intelligent kid being held back by self esteem issues regarding their language skills... With respect, no. I had MASSIVE self esteem issues when I was a lad at school, mostly because of how often other kids tried to kill me for being intellectually aware, rather than hormonal and led around by my man tackle. The schools I went to were uniformly terrible, and the only reason I have ANY intelligence or general knowledge for that matter, is because I sat down and taught it to myself, to make sure that my education could not be stolen from me by circumstance. If I can do it, so can anyone, from anywhere, and if I can do it, no one ever born has an excuse not to.

Also, the article DOES mention teaching the alternative IN an English class. Do you understand what that actually means? It means teaching the alternative vernacular, as being equal to the standardised, when IT SIMPLY IS NOT! You cannot speak regionally or ethnically specific vernacular during a telephone conversation with someone in Bangladesh. You cannot discuss science with a German professor of physics, using the street talk you picked up at home or at the youth club. Your smart kid analogy falls apart, when that kid realises that permitting him to get away with answering questions in what amounts to ethnic specific slang, prevents him from communicating his ideas effectively outside his tiny, little circle of friends and family, locks him off from communication with a whole world of new ideas and great concepts.

He will not thank you for allowing him to leave the damned training wheels on, when the open road is calling.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:15 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Your never going to become a rocket scientist writing your essay and test papers in ebonics.


My students are free to write draft work in whatever language or style they choose but for submitted work it must be in English.

And as far as my communication is concerned , the class will be delivered in standard UK English as that it what 90% of the class understands. Delivering a portion of the class in another language/dialect to pander to 1 or two students is unfair to the others.
Plus as a teacher in the real world, I have neither the time, engery money to learn a dozen diffrent languages.

edit on 27-4-2017 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-4-2017 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok

What will the Queen do when she finds out?



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:20 AM
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originally posted by: Lysergic
a reply to: crazyewok

What will the Queen do when she finds out?


Every time a American spells colour without a U the Queen kills a puppy.
edit on 27-4-2017 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:21 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok

I actually spell it w a u.

it really pisses folks off here.




posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:29 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok

Plus asca teacher in the real world, I have neither the time, engery or money to learn a dozen diffrent languages.


I hope you pull them up on their spelling, even when they aren't typing in a web browser which most likely even has a built in spell checker.



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:31 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Speaking from a purely philosophical point of view, would forcing someone to speak a specific language not be a violation of their civil rights? What about cultures where religion and language are enmeshed?


There is no "forcing" of anything, here, but what there is concerns a realistic expectation in a nation where 99.9% of public legislation, teaching, legal hearings, television shows, and basic communication is done using (relatively) proper American English, that the students in the public education system also learn that language.

I am not saying that they can't, at all, in no circumstance, communicate using ebonics (in fact, I've specifically said the opposite multiple times in this thread), but I am saying that there should not be an expectation that an education in an American-English speaking nation as noted above, should not have to accommodate what equates to a cultural dialect simply under the premise of the hurt feelings of three people (going back to the OP's article).

That has nothing to do with civil rights--they can still express themselves through this dialect, but there's no logical basis to say that it should be a recognized language in American schools because they refuse to learn and be able to understand/communicate in basic American English.


There is a reason we don't have an official national language. I'd suspect any argument in favor of removing "ebonics" as a language allowance would need to overcome the legal argument first.

Again, ebonics isn't a language, it's a dialect of American English. Should all schools in America also acknowledge and speak in Louisiana Creole simply because a decent portion of the people of Louisiana do? And Louisiana Creole is much more of a proper language than ebonics, which like I said, is a dialect.

In a nation, there should be a standard by which all students are taught. Students in the public school system in America are mandated to attend school, and as a result, are mandated to learn certain subjects within the guidelines of certain criteria and parameters and set curriculums (many of which originate in Texas)--are you really going to argue that this is a violation of civil rights as well?

"English" is one of these subjects that is taught basically from K-12, so to claim/imply that the expectation that someone should be able to learn in and communicate with the English language is too much to ask is pretty much laughable.

Like has been noted at some point in this thread, if I studied the ins and outs of, say, the German language for 13 years, I better damn well be able to speak and understand it proficiently enough not to expect others to bow to my preferred language or dialect, especially in a nation where the overwhelming majority (if not all) of official business is conducted primarily in English. Advocating for the inclusion of ebonics based on the premise that a very, very small minority of people feel slightly ostracized by having to speak proper English is about as ridiculous as it can get when concerning an institute of learning.

(sorry for the late response--I was never notified of your reply to me)



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: uncommitted
a reply to: crazyewok

Plus asca teacher in the real world, I have neither the time, engery or money to learn a dozen diffrent languages.


I hope you pull them up on their spelling, even when they aren't typing in a web browser which most likely even has a built in spell checker.


FFS.

I am typing of a phone. My fat fingers mash the keys ok?

Your post adds nothing relevant



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:38 AM
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Ok so Hypothetically what happens when a new language emerges which is far better than English and is far better at relaying communication between us (say we advance to the point where we can communicate visually without words)

do we make a song and dance about English , because it seems to me that Ego is one of the reasons why we make such a song and dance about English , set aside its functionality as a language and how it bridges gaps between nations
but the main reason we are still using it is because we arrogantly think that its the best and that was the case because it was forced by the empire.

should things change in the world and China expands so much that we best just learn Mandarin instead because arent there more Chinese language speakers than there are English, shouldnt we switch to Mandarin by default as we are able to communicate with a larger section of the worlds population ? wasnt that one of the reasons English was taken up ?

I think its just about intellectual superiority complex , English speakers because its the basic language automatically assume its the best language , but we only got here through domination.

I feel it necessary to protect as many languages as possible, dialects, colloquialisms etc

I still think that you could become a rocket scientist if you spoke ebonics and understood english

Anyways do you see what I mean ( if only you could literally see what I mean , there would be no loss of translation)


Shouldn't children learn others languages along side English so they can connect with children who dont speak English as their first language.

Like for example a new Syrian kid comes into English class , they teach English and at the same time engage with the non native speaker asking them the equivalent words and grammar from their language.
Isnt that what education is all about learning everything under the sun ?

I know this would be huge on resources etc,

Mclaneinc you said that its not the teachers job to engage the kid not listening at the back of class , disrupting or on their phone!

Sorry but what the # are teachers doing then if not that , I thought a teacher was there to inspire children to learn, not to read of a hymn sheet and ignore the ones who cant connect to education.
If a teacher can reach one child who feels isolated because they cant connect if they arent native english speakers and speaking to them in their language then surely that's the point right .

You said you dont have the time, energy or money etc, what does that say about teachers who are unwilling to learn themselves , every day being a school day right ?
I think it says alot about our education system if we are unwilling to support the minority of kids who may learn differently than others

just some thoughts


TrueBrit I love it when you dump the knowledge on us , you have quit a vast knowledge of the British isles and its history



posted on Apr, 27 2017 @ 09:40 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok

she kills puppies because she is horrible, isn't German her first language anyways ? lol (couldn't resist)



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