Is the European Union Worth It Or Should We End It?

Short answer is that the EU does work. It works very well for Germany. However, all nations in the EU have improved economically, which is why all these ex Soviet vassal states are able to look smugly at Russia.

The problem with the EU is the undemocratic nature of the how it works. They should have seen the warning signs in the UK, and acted. However, history shows when you get a few hundred grey suits in one building, they become dislocated from the outside world and group-think sets in.

Bizarrely, the rise of disaffection with the EU from the citizenry, as seen by the anti-EU politics, is not being addressed. The EU elite just don't seem to have noticed, but then reforming yourself when you are used to the status quo is quite hard. The EU leadership's position - as parroted by the Remain lobby in the UK - looks down as dissent with a patronising and ridiculing eye and refers to them as "uneducated" and "uninformed", which just plain arrogance and just avoids the crux of the issue.

a reply to: Swills

I don't believe that the European Union is 'worth it' so I voted to leave regardless of the potential short/medium term challenges an independent Britain may now face.

Should 'we' end it?
That would be the decision of the people who live under European legislation, not an American on a discussion forum, or a Brit who has voted to leave.
Only the people of the EU make that call.

I voted leave.

People who voted remain argue with me that leaving the EU will see an end to human rights in this country, we'll be at the total mercy of the cruel tory government that will inflict untold horrors on citizens with impunity. My reply is that our tory government has been inflicting misery on people for years and not one word of protest from Brussels. Homelessness skyrocketing. Disabled, sick, and dying, purposely left without vital benefits, destitute and desperate. Mentally ill abandoned and discarded with no support. NHS buckling through deliberate gross underfunding. Education a disgrace. Insufficient housing. It goes on and on.

Not one word in protest from the EU. Not a syllable. So what good is it with regard to human rights?

I don't get an opportunity to vote out the goons in Brussels, and it frustrates the Hell out of me. I resent it. It winds me up no end that our democratically elected government is neutralised and hog-tied by laws and rules imposed by an appointed higher government that no-one voted for.

I don't know how to vote in this general election. I really don't.

I want us out of the EU, it is the most important thing for me. It's too far out of reach for us normal people to hold it to account. Our general elections are pointless as long as we are a member of the EU, whichever party we vote for will still have to do Brussels' bidding and our govt and us can like it or lump it, forever.

First thing's first, get us out of the EU.

So with all that in mind, how should I vote in this general election?

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
The European Union will fall apart because it is made up of too many individual former empires. Each one of these former empires has no interest in adjusting its monetary policies, immigration policies, and treaty obligations to align with a single centralized policy if it does not benefit them. And what benefits one may not another, therefore not enough cohesion.

The biggest deciding families of course do not see eye to eye with the future of Europe. The King of Belgium and Queen of England I think are too far apart on the future of Europe. The only hope for the EU to stay in existence is the creation of a EU armed forces. This would redefine NATO with only a handful of European states along the coastal regions, like UK, France, Norway and such. There are a handful of NATO states which re not aa part of the EU, and vice versa.

What on earth are you babbling about. You must american because its only folks in the US that are obsessed with the notion of "political power of the royal family(ies)". For the billionth time THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY. They are figureheads nothing more. All the pomp and ceremony and the "queens speech" etc is just historical meaningless procedure which looks nice on TV!!!!!!

As far as EU cohesion is concerned: The original EU members (UK excluded) get on fine and cooperate fine. There is and always has been a problem with the UK because too many people in this country still think of the "British empire" and the narrow minded inward thinking that goes with it. The latest members of the EU, eastern ex communist countries have a problem with immigration because they have very few immigrants. These countries still have a high level of racism as is evident at football matches.

The EU will survive, it has been blasted with a middle east crisis that it wasn't able to respond to in a controlled manner but is now getting to grips with it. There has been a blinkered view by the politicians of centralisation of power which will roll back as the EU changes and becomes stronger without the UK. Don't believe me? Well I have been on ATS for decades now and throughout all that time the EU was "just about to collapse"....NAH. The EU will now be able to get on with business instead of been hampered and held back by the whining brits....

a reply to: doobydoll


I totally agree the UK is a mess and the EU is only pushing further us into it.

As for who to vote for !?!?.... I don't trust Corbin to get anything like a fair deal in EU exit negotiations so I'm probably GULP! gona have to go tory....damn that was hard to admit.

originally posted by: doobydoll
I voted leave.

People who voted remain argue with me that leaving the EU will see an end to human rights in this country, we'll be at the total mercy of the cruel tory government that will inflict untold horrors on citizens with impunity. My reply is that our tory government has been inflicting misery on people for years and not one word of protest from Brussels. Homelessness skyrocketing.

WOW do you not hear yourself? Come on, the calling cry of the referendum "Bring back control to the UK instead of controlled from Brussels". We never were controlled from Brussels which is precisely why the UK government can do these things DUH. Come on wake up DUH!!!!! WE NEVER LOST CONTROL as you a brexiter has amply demonstrated.

The vast majority of EU legislation ("the control") is about trade. The definition of an M6 bolt for example (which is identical in every EU country wow!!!!!). Ensuring that chemicals are understood throughout the EU hence E numbers instead of country by country chemical names DUH!!!!

In fact please provide an example of a law from Brussels that so enrages you that you will be glad to get rid of. NB not trade related and not human rights related (which is not the EU DUH!)

a reply to: yorkshirelad

So why can't we trade with the EU as a non-member like the rest of the world does?

a reply to: doobydoll

We will continue trading quite easily as our production standards etc already comply with EU trading regulations.
The only real questions are trade tariffs, and personally I think a mutually agreeable deal will be reached.
Of course nobody knows, even our friend from Yorkshire has only opinion.
He just expresses it in an excitable fashion...DUH!

originally posted by: FuggleHop
a reply to: Swills

The smart thing would be to end it. Theirs only one successful union in this world and its the USA. Their have been other unions notably the USSR but it failed.

Unions dont work.

Maybe not, but at least Germany has not been at war with any neighbor for about 72 years which is an on-going record.

They should have stick to seperste currencies snf keot things economic for ytade then people would have been cool with it, the UK is full of people who were happy with yradong then too many kaes and regs on other things,we should be in a union of trade but things all went tits uo with Slavic states being allows in thrtecwete loafs of companies that went esdy eiyh Germany getting control like theyy always wsntref of Comecon ex states. Nstionslism reared its head and a common language wsd never in the fray so people kept seperstevthriw in invasion of freeloaders and in some case genuine reugees from muslim states and oeiole looked sr the EU and saiid thanks but no thanks. We should still be I n a free trade zone sd EU isn't going anywhere its got us surround trade wise. You ysnks have unity through language and culture ty hst is missing from Europe

originally posted by: nickovthenorth
a reply to: doobydoll


I totally agree the UK is a mess and the EU is only pushing further us into it.

As for who to vote for !?!?.... I don't trust Corbin to get anything like a fair deal in EU exit negotiations so I'm probably GULP! gona have to go tory....damn that was hard to admit.

Yes I keep hearing I should swallow the tory vote, we can deal with them next time. The EU is forever, locked in for life. That sounds too final for me.

I'll dare bet those despots in Brussels are secretly writing up additional rules and regulations as we speak, that will make it impossible for any other future member to leave the bloc, instead of drawing up fair guidelines/regs that would allow member states to leave in a way that would cause least disruption to either party in future.

I despise the tories. I despise the EU more.

I can't believe I've got to vote tory. I feel violated. lol.

a reply to: Swills

The EU works for the benefit of business not citizens , even Jean-Claude Juncker admitted the Union has failed the people of Europe this time last year.
As a trading partnership the EU was a sensible move but it has grown over the years into an entity bent on statehood , the launch of the single currency was a move designed to strip countries of sovereignty and Homogenise the continent into a single block , the move for a European army is a further step in that direction.

Like many things in politics it started as a good idea only to be destroyed by self interest and greed.
We're best out of it.
Rule, Britannia!

a reply to: nickovthenorth

I'm with you Nick.
Its hard to have to say it but the is NO ALTERNATIVE in the UK. We just have to sit tight. Vote Tory for a bit of short term stability.
EBay is now my sole source of income thanks to Tory cuts but I'll bite my lip and give them my vote. Corbin is dangerous and unelectable. He's destroyed the Labour party (but that's another thread altogether) and will be disastrous if he wins.

I know David Icke gets a mixed reception on here but he has, several times, explained what the EU is pretty well.

Worth checking out. Sorry no links but easy to find for those with an interest.

a reply to: doobydoll

I am not sure why people think the Tories are anti-human rights. This is one of those leftist stereotypes churned out by political opponents to scare their children.

For example, the architect of the European Convention on Human Rights was David Maxwell Fyfe, a Conservative MP.

The lack of democratic accountability is an inhibitor of human rights, and sadly the EU is fundamentally undemocratic.

originally posted by: slider1982
The union was sold to the people as a free trade agreement that would allow member states easier buying and selling power, what it then turned into was something far more sinister. It is absurd to think countries with different economies, laws and cultures could work as one. Case in point we are all one big country in the EU yet we have totally different laws such as in the Netherlands where you can legally f#ck a school girl whilst smoking a joint but go straight to prison if you do over 100 mph in a vehicle, the UK for example is the total opposite and there in lies some of the issues there is no unified common sense. (Extreme example granted) but it shows what I mean and it runs right down to the smallest of bureaucratic matters.

Then you have the cost, Everything in the EU has a fee and legislation beyond belief, I have dealt with it personally and it is absurd..

Moving on to the mass migration of third world immigrants that Brussels stated member states "have" to accept that in reality was just a way to water down the native population that in the long run would see far less national pride and as such a culture that is easier to manipulate, the for migration agenda is a total con and for many member states the door was only ever going to go one way..

How many UK expats for example moved to Latvia when they became members?, or Romania for that matter???....

I remember in the 90s the scare stories of what would happen if the UK didnt join the EURO would be and that was proven to be a load of crap, the EU elite love to bully their minions when they really want to get their own way, it is a dictatorship make no bones about it...

My last point is the overall cost of keeping unelected officials on their Brussels gravy train, the amounts are a joke, the world is far bigger than just the EU and when you have total f#cking morons like Merkle with a serious Islamic fetish in charge of a main member country I think we can all see what that has led to!!!!...


The free trade agreement that it was sold as was fine, the BS that the EU is now is not worth it, I hope the whole thing is collapses and countries can regain some identity and sovereignty so they can try and patch up the mess that the EU would have left behind..



RA

I too completely agree with statement. The EU has turned into a bloated mess without any vision or future.

originally posted by: Tulpa
a reply to: nickovthenorth

I'm with you Nick.
Its hard to have to say it but the is NO ALTERNATIVE in the UK. We just have to sit tight. Vote Tory for a bit of short term stability.
EBay is now my sole source of income thanks to Tory cuts but I'll bite my lip and give them my vote. Corbin is dangerous and unelectable. He's destroyed the Labour party (but that's another thread altogether) and will be disastrous if he wins.

I know David Icke gets a mixed reception on here but he has, several times, explained what the EU is pretty well.

Worth checking out. Sorry no links but easy to find for those with an interest.

Most of the people I've talked about this with are of the same mind.

we could be looking at the biggest tory majority in generations.
Nobody I know is happy about it, but everyone wants out of the EU so badly we have no choice.

Let me clear a few things up that explains just why the UK would not and did not succeed in the EU.
Firstly the the UK HAD elected MEPs that should have fought for your every right. Yes, you voted them in ,so don't say you never had a vote.
Now just because those said MEPs were just going to dip their snouts in the Brussels trough is not a reason to come out the EU. As I said before our Midlands MEP actually said she was only going to Brussels to cause trouble to make it easier for them to say leave.
The benefits that other EU members have had compared to the UK is beyond criminal and this is down purely to our government, not the EU.
One of the biggest lies that you have ever been told about the EU compared to the UK is Income Tax. Average wage across the affluent countries is 15,000 to 30,000 euros. The rate in the UK is 20%. Germany 15%, France 15%. But that is the easy bit. Compared to the EU the UK pays VASTLY more in other taxes. In fact the UK is one of the most taxed countries in the world.
Now according to the original EU reasons was we were all supposed to be equal but our government and the MEPs made sure we were not. There are many, many examples of this that you can easily find out about yourself.
The examples you think will be silly or trite but to the ordinary man in the street it's extra money he needn't have paid out.
Question:- Why do you think the UK government never went with the single currency? Please don't say because they wanted to keep the Queens head on our coins BS.
another question for the one world government crowd:- Our world turns and operates on money and trade so the banks are globally run and industries are globally run, now just how do we as a single nation try to control or govern these entities?

a reply to: Swills

The original EU idea of single market and peace, yes I think that is the perfect resolution. You remove the current form of the EU, create a council of EU leaders but these would be just the leaders of each member COUNTRY (I hate the words Member States, does my head in lol) so you have 27 people who represent the interests of their own country and you use that to build a single market where EVERYONE can trade for free and you have a military treaty that stops people going to war with each other.

The version of the EU that we have today, is a dangerous figure. It takes almost all the power from countries laws etc. which while sometimes can be a good thing but most of the time it isn't. The EU is a power hungry figure that I honestly see as becoming a much darker force in the near future. With some of the "inner" leaders talking about ever growing ties I really do see a moment when the idea is gonna be "Hey wouldnt' it be great if all countries in the EU removed their highest power positions and instead all have Prime Ministers while above them we'll have the EU selected President as the highest power in all the countries.

Someone once said to me "The European Union, was the hopes and dreams of Hitler" I looked this up and yes in a strange way he wanted to unite the EU and be in control of it and NO I'M NOT COMPARING ANYONE TO HITLER just saying that it was something Hitler wanted.

a reply to: crayzeed

I disagree on some of what you say. You claim we had elected MEPS and that it wasn't the EUs fault that they were rubbish (my word to describe what you basically said) but that isn't completely true. The MEPs and the UK voted down certain things and we vetoed a ton and were over turned. If you do enough reading about it you can see there are a lot more problems with the EU than just what you pointed out. The idea that the UK was going in with the idea of not wanting to be a part of the EU is not true. I'll tell you the reason that most people voted Brexit (myself included) it's because we don't like our laws and rules and courts being over turned, we hated when the terrorist hate speakers were given the right to stay here when we were trying to remove them because the EU court of human rights said that we couldn't throw them out even though they forget the rights and safety of ALL the people of the UK.

I get annoyed when people like yourself seem to make out that the UK having a bad relationship with the EU is all down to us. As I said in another comment, the EU is a power hungry entity and while the original idea of a single market and a war treaty to stop wars is a great thing what it has become is wrong. You claims, while not completely untrue seems to push the blame on the people of the UK rather than sharing the blame with the EU. I remember watching an interview with a historian a few months back during the whole Brexit thing and he said something that I found interesting:

"...The British are naturally a stubborn lot. We do not like to be under the boot of some forgien power figure. We defeated Hitler, with some help of course, but we defeated Hitler to make sure we were not under the boot of a power figure who we voted for. So while people can complain and say that it is down to a majority being racist or hating foreigners I personally believe that it is in the blood of all Brits, to want control of their own country and as EU members we will never have that because no matter what the law is in this country (UK) the EU can simply over turn it."

I can't remember the blokes name, he is notorious for saying stuff that people don't like (has white hair, posh voice and often wears glasses) but he isn't wrong. I think the nail in the coffin for Breiti not happening was when Cameron ran to Obama and tried to sway people with Obama threatening the UK saying "You'll go to the back of the line" that peeved a ton of people that I know and I'm positive it would've done the same for most of my fellow countrymen. I'm proud that we voted Breixt and we will make a great success of it in the long run. We can debate the good and bad of Brexit but please make sure the blame is shared on both sides.

a reply to: Dwoodward85

I have said before that I believe that UK politicians have used the EU as an excuse for their own uselessness.
Now that excuse is gone and their actions are now their own.

They now need to be held to account and either pull their fingers out of their a##es and work. Or go.
We will be watching...