USAF explains losing performance of F-15Cs to Indian AF

Originally posted by Seekerof
MKI vs Raptor? Not! Raptor virtually each and every time.

Question Stealth Spy:
If there is such a huge superiority in Russian made aircraft, then at least once, in actual combat, not simulated air-to-air combat, one of these fighters (F-16, F-15) should have been downed by those vaunted and superior made Russian aircraft?
F-16: 71:0
F-15: 101:0

Correct?
seekerof

Okay dude, hardware is not everything. I think that's proven time and again. The U.S. has never faced pilots of equal or superior training and tactics, which explains the lop-sided number.

Not to mention the U.S. has never faced superior Russian-made aircraft in combat.

Oh yeah, the F/A-22 hasn't flown in combat yet.

Correct?


[edit on 5-2-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Okay dude, hardware is not everything. I think that's proven time and again. The U.S. has never faced pilots of equal or superior training and tactics, which explains the lop-sided number.

The majority of the kills that the F-15 and all of the F-16 kills have been made by countries other than the US.

No other countries pilots have the level of training and operational time that the US pilots and aviators enjoy. Is there a way to change that? I doubt it.

Lets see the results of The Israel AF and Indian AF exercises...I guess thats the only way to conclude this discussion..
USAF pilots do NOT necessarily log more flight hours than other PROMINENT AFs in the world..It depends on the readiness and scramble awareness the pilots need to be prepared with..for small countries like Israel, Pakistan, Taiwan etc..the fighter pilots have an extreme OP readiness environment, due to the nature of their neighbours.These pilots will have a large number of sorties as compared to pilots based in a squadron of a comparatively larger country with no immediate threat perception(except for renegade passenger airlines)...
The only fact is that the best stealth in the world as of now..it has the most deplyable AF in the world as of now, good (not necessarily the best) logistical/infrastructural ground support, and and lot of funding for fighter school..i.e. the average pilot skill level will meet some bar..

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
And the AIM-120C-7 has a max range of 70km, while the AIM-120C-8 or AIM-120D will have a range from 100-140km.

"The AIM-120C-7 (P3I Phase 3), development of which has begun in 1998, incorporates improved ECCM with jamming detection, an upgraded seeker, and longer range. The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in Spetember 2004). The AIM-120C-7 was successfully tested against combat-realistic targets in August and September 2003, and IOC was then planned for 2006

The designation AIM-120D refers to a projected version of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range. The AIM-120D is a joint USAF/USN project, and current plans call for an IOC on the F/A-18E/F in FY2008. "


www.designation-systems.net...

none of those are fully developed, and will take a long time to come

It will be in service between 2006-2007, in fact according to Jane's and AvWeekly some C-7 variants are already in service, and current versions of the AMRAAM are still better than the latest Alamos/Adder variants, they are both overhyped, 1 has a terrible combat record (Alamos) and the other one is untested,, being the R-77. The Adder's latest variant, the R-77M still doesn't match the C-5.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Okay dude, hardware is not everything. I think that's proven time and again. The U.S. has never faced pilots of equal or superior training and tactics, which explains the lop-sided number.

The majority of the kills that the F-15 and all of the F-16 kills have been made by countries other than the US.

No other countries pilots have the level of training and operational time that the US pilots and aviators enjoy. Is there a way to change that? I doubt it.

Absolutley correct in both statements, USAF F-15 pilots, I believe, have shot down 40 of the 101 fighters shot down total for the Eagle.

The most recent engagement came in 1999, when a pair of USAF F-15C's shot down four Serbian MiG-29's.

Okay dude, hardware is not everything. I think that's proven time and again. The U.S. has never faced pilots of equal or superior training and tactics, which explains the lop-sided number.

Not to mention the U.S. has never faced superior Russian-made aircraft in combat.

Oh yeah, the F/A-22 hasn't flown in combat yet.

Correct?

Sort of

1. Give me a nation that not only has a large quanity of pilots, but the ability to produce a LARGE quanity of pilots that are of top quality like the USAF/USN. Am I saying they are all amazing? Hell no, some manage to slip through the cracks, ie: connections, etc. That's why they're constantly evaluated.

2. They have faced MiG-29's on numerous occasions and have come out with success 100% of the time.

3. Correct, but name the F-22 just makes the generation gap even wider apart with its introduction.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Lets see the results of The Israel AF and Indian AF exercises...I guess thats the only way to conclude this discussion..
USAF pilots do NOT necessarily log more flight hours than other PROMINENT AFs in the world..It depends on the readiness and scramble awareness the pilots need to be prepared with..for small countries like Israel, Pakistan, Taiwan etc..the fighter pilots have an extreme OP readiness environment, due to the nature of their neighbours.These pilots will have a large number of sorties as compared to pilots based in a squadron of a comparatively larger country with no immediate threat perception(except for renegade passenger airlines)...
The only fact is that the best stealth in the world as of now..it has the most deplyable AF in the world as of now, good (not necessarily the best) logistical/infrastructural ground support, and and lot of funding for fighter school..i.e. the average pilot skill level will meet some bar..

So, give me some figures on sortie goals that you've heard from F-15C squadrons based in the U.S. and abroad....I GUARANTEE our pilots/aircraft fly many air-to-air training sorties, let alone F-15C sorties...believe me, I personally wish they'd scale back a little bit actually. It NEVER stops, every week of the year we are flying the hell out of those planes. I'd go as far as to say that our pilots get more practice in that airframe, exponentially, than any other country's air-to-air program. We simply are unlimited in our supply/maintenance resources, and as long as there are good jets(always) on the ramp, we are flying a minimum of 100-120 sorties per week, some weeks in excess of 320 sorties, depending on goals. That is PER F-15C squadron, per F-15C base, in the USAF, stateside and abroad....

Yes lets exchange figures...how many per average pilot of an F-15 C squadron per week, you said?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yes lets exchange figures...how many per average pilot of an F-15 C squadron per week, you said?

The avaerage USAF pilot is actually in the air around 10-20 hours per week in a training environment.

U.S. pilots are probably amongst the best in the world; of course other prominent air forces will have very good pilots as well.

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
And the AIM-120C-7 has a max range of 70km, while the AIM-120C-8 or AIM-120D will have a range from 100-140km.

"The AIM-120C-7 (P3I Phase 3), development of which has begun in 1998, incorporates improved ECCM with jamming detection, an upgraded seeker, and longer range. The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in Spetember 2004). The AIM-120C-7 was successfully tested against combat-realistic targets in August and September 2003, and IOC was then planned for 2006

The designation AIM-120D refers to a projected version of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range. The AIM-120D is a joint USAF/USN project, and current plans call for an IOC on the F/A-18E/F in FY2008. "


www.designation-systems.net...

none of those are fully developed, and will take a long time to come

It will be in service between 2006-2007, in fact according to Jane's and AvWeekly some C-7 variants are already in service, and current versions of the AMRAAM are still better than the latest Alamos/Adder variants, they are both overhyped, 1 has a terrible combat record (Alamos) and the other one is untested,, being the R-77. The Adder's latest variant, the R-77M still doesn't match the C-5.

all of those are not meant for the Rap, the US navy is getting those. The raptor will be stuck with the Aim-120 C for a long time.

besides, can you(or anybody) answer my query about the raptor's first see first kill bility in the previous page >> PM Post Number: 1144516 (post id: 1166409)

something more

"The Aim 120C is a compromise. Reason being, the tails and wings of the missile have been reduced in size with the intent for the missile to fit better into internal bays. "

source : www.f22fighter.com...

Originally posted by Starwars51

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yes lets exchange figures...how many per average pilot of an F-15 C squadron per week, you said?

The avaerage USAF pilot is actually in the air around 10-20 hours per week in a training environment.

But the post above yours said 100 -200 hours for the USAF..??

By Stealth Spy :
Chew upon this :

Lt. Col. David "Logger" Rose, a Persian Gulf War F-15 pilot, 41, recalled the time "12 years ago to the day in Desert Storm" when an Iraqi MiG-29 chased away his F-15 on the first day of the war.

Source : www.reviewjournal.com...

Besides, when have those russian aircraft's been given a fair shot.

Either they were outnumbered, or they had rookie pilots.

Some Dutch F-16's downed a Mig-29 with pilots who colud barely fly.

When did well trained Mig or Sukhoi pilots ever take on F-16's or F-15's.
I guess you'll have to wait till the next India-Pakistan war to find out about some F-16's getting swatted out.

Besides, what happened to your F-15's in the air exercises(not simulations) . True they were outnumbered, and were not the best F-15's around, but they went down to Mig-21's and Jaguar's in Alaska.

It also kinda shown that the USAF cannot win in disadvantaged situations.

Similarly F-16's of the Singapore AF, got swatted by Mig-29's in air exercises, with no handicap to either side.



U mean the SINDEX 2004 Singapore & India exercise?

Erm, are you sure our fighters lost? We went against Su-30MKI too(in fact all IAF planes). The results are not even out yet, and i suppose our pilots did pretty well. Check out f-16.net pls

as posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Okay dude, hardware is not everything. I think that's proven time and again. The U.S. has never faced pilots of equal or superior training and tactics, which explains the lop-sided number.

First off, your first mistake is that you included the word "never". Are you implying that the US has always and will have the best trained pilots in the world, cause if you are, that seems to make your assertion valid. If your not, then I will remind you of WWII, Korean War and in some case Vietnam, and other arena's of conflict not labeled "war". The numbers indicate a two-fold concept: better trained pilots and simply better aircraft.
Despite your reasoning and mention of why it appears "lop-sided," the question posed still holds validity, merit, and has not been fully answered.




seekerof

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
And the AIM-120C-7 has a max range of 70km, while the AIM-120C-8 or AIM-120D will have a range from 100-140km.

"The AIM-120C-7 (P3I Phase 3), development of which has begun in 1998, incorporates improved ECCM with jamming detection, an upgraded seeker, and longer range. The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in Spetember 2004). The AIM-120C-7 was successfully tested against combat-realistic targets in August and September 2003, and IOC was then planned for 2006

The designation AIM-120D refers to a projected version of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range. The AIM-120D is a joint USAF/USN project, and current plans call for an IOC on the F/A-18E/F in FY2008. "


www.designation-systems.net...

none of those are fully developed, and will take a long time to come

It will be in service between 2006-2007, in fact according to Jane's and AvWeekly some C-7 variants are already in service, and current versions of the AMRAAM are still better than the latest Alamos/Adder variants, they are both overhyped, 1 has a terrible combat record (Alamos) and the other one is untested,, being the R-77. The Adder's latest variant, the R-77M still doesn't match the C-5.

all of those are not meant for the Rap, the US navy is getting those. The raptor will be stuck with the Aim-120 C for a long time.

besides, can you(or anybody) answer my query about the raptor's first see first kill bility in the previous page >> PM Post Number: 1144516 (post id: 1166409)

Wrong, the AIM-120D is intended for the F-15C, F/A-18E/F, F-22, and the F-35.

It just so happens that the Super Hornet is getting it first.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by Starwars51

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yes lets exchange figures...how many per average pilot of an F-15 C squadron per week, you said?

The avaerage USAF pilot is actually in the air around 10-20 hours per week in a training environment.

But the post above yours said 100 -200 hours for the USAF..??

Not 100-200 hours per pilot, more like 100-200 sorties per squadron(often more).... That is quite a bit of flying.

here is a quote form the Washington Post

Washington Post.


The Air Force originally wanted to see the plane's sophisticated avionics, or electronics gear, achieve 20 hours of uninterrupted flying time without a software failure. When the plane couldn't achieve that, the Air Force changed its goal to flying five hours without a software failure. As of January, the plane could average no better than 2.7 hours.

In addition, the plane's microprocessor is an obsolete model no longer manufactured. The Air Force plans to switch to a newer type, including one created for the upgraded F-16 fighter jet, a type of plane far older than the F-22.

It's no surprise, then, that watchdog groups like the Project on Government Oversight are asking the Pentagon to put this sick puppy of a program to sleep.

source