USAF explains losing performance of F-15Cs to Indian AF

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by Stealth Spy
BTW : some crazy mod had to warn me and fine me for starting this thread.

No, you were warned for copy-n-pasting, big quoting an entire article!
Please note at the top of each reply and create topic screen, it says"

MEMBERS: Do not simply post news articles in the forums without comment. If you feel inclined to make the board aware of current events,
please post the first paragraph, a link to the entire story, AND your opinion, twist or take on the news item.

Thank you for your future compliance.

seekerof
[edit on 3-2-2005 by Seekerof]

sorry about that...my mistake....my apologies.

No problem, no harm, no foul, all is good.


seekerof

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Look how bad our planes are preforming, Now sign on the dotted line to buy us some new F-22s because we need them so bad.

I wonder how we will do if we bring some Raptors to play next time.

If you get the raptor's we'll get our Su-30MKI, wchich has a better radar, better TVC, better menuverability than the raptor.It is perhaps the best flanker around.
Su-30 MKI

I am sorry, but the Su-MKI does NOT have better radar then the Raptor. That is just fantasy. As for the agility of the aircraft, it would never come into play against a Raptor.


Besides, how about we just let you have your MKIs, but the US gets fully upgraded F-15's with our real radar, all of our weapons, and AWACS - that would be much more realistic and telling, would it not?

[edit on 3-2-2005 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I am sorry, but the Su-MKI does NOT have better radar then the Raptor. That is just fantasy. As for the agility of the aircraft, it would never come into play against a Raptor.

Su-30 MKI Radar

Su-30 MKI virtual 3D Thrust vectorng

Su-30 MKI super menuverability

Su-30 cockpit and aveonics


Su-30MKI Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Su-30MKI beats F/A-18E/F

------

Su-30 MKI's virtual stealth using super menuverability

From an interview with designer-general of the AOOT "OKB Sukhoi" Mikhail Simonov

vayu-sena.tripod.com...


Q :How is that that supermaneuverability leads to the reduction of the aircraft's visibility on the radar screen?

A:"The Su-30 MKI's supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect. 10 However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognize only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile's seeker would not pick-up the target."


[edit on 3-2-2005 by Stealth Spy]

i remember reading somewhere on here that a raptor effectively took out 3 or 5 f-16's in simulations. is this true? no time to find the thread about it...sorry

Tahlen

Originally posted by Tahlen
i remember reading somewhere on here that a raptor effectively took out 3 or 5 f-16's in simulations. is this true? no time to find the thread about it...sorry

Tahlen

It was 5 F-15s and they were all dead in 3 minutes

Heres a quote from the orginal article

"We had five F-15 Eagles against one Raptor," he said. "The engagement was over in three minutes. None of the F-15s even saw the Raptor. The Raptor simply went down the line and, in simulation, took out all five of the F-15s."

You cant hit what you cant see


Heres the thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Su-30 MKI Radar

It has nothing on the Raptors low observable system.

The F-22's Northrop Grumman/Texas Instruments-built AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of over 1000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly, so it can acquire target data, and in the meantime minimizing the chance that the radar signal is detected or tracked.

Most of the mechanical parts common to other radar have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electro magnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission.

One requirement that drove all of the ATF designs was a wide field of regard for sensors, enabling the Raptor to acquire and track multiple targets beyond visual range. The requirement called for a 120-degree radar field of regard on each side of the nose.

A forward-looking infrared search and track capability was also desired. Lockheed approached the field-of-regard requirement for the radar with three radar arrays placed in the nose of the aircraft (one facing forward and two facing sideways). Each wing root carried an infrared search and track system that operated through faceted windows.

AN/APG-77 Raptor radar

Su-30 MKI virtual 3D Thrust vectorng

Su-30 MKI super menuverability

First off, the Raptor is a very manueverable aircraft in it's own right. But that doesn't even matter because the MKI would never get close enough to use it. The Raptor would have killed it many times over.

All I'm going to say regarding avionics is that the Raptors are the best in the world bar none.

Su-30MKI Beats F-15C 'Every Time'

Su-30MKI beats F/A-18E/F

The situation with the F-15 is ONE SPECIFIC SET OF CONDITIONS. Now, how likely is it that those exact situations are going to occur in the chaos of war? More importantly, no one outside of the USAF knows those exact conditions, so exactly how are they going to be to any other air forces advantage.

In your F-18 comparison, you are comparing your state of the art fully upgraded Su-30MKI vs a foriegn early production F-18.

If you want to compare the Su-30 to something, compare it against the SuperHornet.

Q :How is that that supermaneuverability leads to the reduction of the aircraft's visibility on the radar screen?

A:"The Su-30 MKI's supermaneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar..."

"Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by an enemy radar"

This will never happen - the MKI pilot will never get a signal he is being tracked because, as I showed in the APG-77 link, it is a low observable radar that switches frequencies so as to be undetectable.

In short, the MKI does not stand a chance against a raptor.

I'll have to agree with you with the raptor part, but the MKI is certainly better than the F-15.

The article speaks of how the Su would be able to get a second shot at the F-15 in BVR combat.

That the MKI will smoke(if i may dare say) the F-15 in close range combat for SURE.

I must admit, the Su-30 MKI is better than the F-15(latest version) in every aspect., but not sufficiently stealthy to take on the raptor.

I still feel that this pic is an exaggeration

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Stealth Spy]

You "must admit" that the Su-30MKI is better than the latest F-15s in "ever aspect?"

And how could you possibly know every aspect of the latest programmed F-15s? I assure you, that you don't.

These exercises are fun, and help build relations between nations. However, the USAF would never operate ANY of it's sensitive, advantage-giving avionics and weapons programs during an exercise over foreign soil, none whatsoever. The USAF has mastered the ability to stay a step (or few, or many) ahead, without letting even our closest allies know how much exactly. Not trying to burst your bubble or anything, because I do think the MKI is a remarkable aircraft. But, unless faced in war, the U.S. will not unleash even 50% of it's actual combat capability during bilateral exercise sorties. It's just too secretive, and we can't risk the chance of sensory equipment detecting what we do.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Su-30 MKI Radar

It has nothing on the Raptors low observable system.

here is a quote from the source you quoted

"The aircraft flies radio silent to the targets, and at a range close to the maximum one required for launching the weapons, the threat updating aids are engaged and the weapon is fired. In doing so, the attack time is minimal and the low-observable target approach increases the success of a mission greatly. "

For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously. The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km.


It can detect small drone targets at a range of 50 km.

Another radar meant for the Flanker family, Phazotron-NIIR’s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance. Additionally the Su-30MKI can function as a 'mimi-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.

so you see, the Raptor's aim 120C has a max range of 24 nmi which is around 43.6 km. If this thing's radar can detect a small drone at 50km, then can't it detect a raptor.???

also the rear firing ability is not seen in the raptor


how does this change if you add an AWACS to the red side




[edit on 4-2-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Kyle325is
You "must admit" that the Su-30MKI is better than the latest F-15s in "ever aspect?"

And how could you possibly know every aspect of the latest programmed F-15s? I assure you, that you don't.

i certainly dont. but the MKI is better than any F-15 that is declassified to the media.

i agree these exercises done on a constructive note.
i got a little bit excited when someone suggested bringing the raptor.

i think your signature is from Julius Caesar(by Shakespeare), tell me if i am right ??

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Stealth Spy]

I think this is an important bit of information.
The USAF is not invincible, it is not even on par with the likes of India.
There is nothing to worry about when it comes to facing the US in an air war.
You don't even have to have the latest Russian aircraft in order to crash US F-15's.
Are you paying attention Iran?
Your victory over the great satan is assured.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I'll have to agree with you with the raptor part, but the MKI is certainly better than the F-15.

The article speaks of how the Su would be able to get a second shot at the F-15 in BVR combat.

That the MKI will smoke(if i may dare say) the F-15 in close range combat for SURE.

I must admit, the Su-30 MKI is better than the F-15(latest version) in every aspect., but not sufficiently stealthy to take on the raptor.

I still feel that this pic is an exaggeration

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Stealth Spy, you are certainly living in a land of Oz. The F-15C is superior to the Su-30MKI for a number of reasons: weapons, radar, avionics, ECCM, and has more structural limitations than the F-15/16, the MiG-29 also has more structural limits as well. In a full combat load out the F-15/16 will be able to pull 8.6-9 gee's in its corner velocity, which basically means flying at the slowest possible speed while pulling maximum number of gees, while a typical Su-30/MiG-29 loadout (full weapons load, half full tank of gas) would reduce them to about 7.5-8 gees.

And an exageration on the F-22 pic? If you ask most people, it's a blatent understatment, no fighter aircraft will hold a candle to the F-22/F-35 in a BVR fight, and WVR while it is more difficult, would still go to the F-22/F-35.

BVR, the Superhornet will do fine against the Su-30MKI/MKK, WVR the Super Hornet is even deadlier, higher off bore-sight missiles in combination with an extremely high sustained AoA, around 50 degrees, not even the Su-30 can match that.

And the AIM-120C-7 has a max range of 70km, while the AIM-120C-8 or AIM-120D will have a range from 100-140km.

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

^^ So you're basically trying to say that a fully loaded F-16 would have a better SFPG than a fully loaded Su30?? !!!
MiG-29 I agree,; actually I know.... F-16 HAS a better SFPG ratio..


Hockeyguy...If I may say so..IMO you are the most pro-american russian I have EVER seen/heard etc... etc..I agree that some russians are voertly nationalistic on this site, and that is a bit irritating..but your post seemed extremely nationalistic (form the american point of view :wow...!!!??!!

Whats the real deal??

[edit on 4-2-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by Kyle325is
You "must admit" that the Su-30MKI is better than the latest F-15s in "ever aspect?"

And how could you possibly know every aspect of the latest programmed F-15s? I assure you, that you don't.

These exercises are fun, and help build relations between nations. However, the USAF would never operate ANY of it's sensitive, advantage-giving avionics and weapons programs during an exercise over foreign soil, none whatsoever. The USAF has mastered the ability to stay a step (or few, or many) ahead, without letting even our closest allies know how much exactly. Not trying to burst your bubble or anything, because I do think the MKI is a remarkable aircraft. But, unless faced in war, the U.S. will not unleash even 50% of it's actual combat capability during bilateral exercise sorties. It's just too secretive, and we can't risk the chance of sensory equipment detecting what we do.

And to assume tht ONLY theUSAF follows such practices in exercises, would be complacency bordering on stupidity, wouldn't you say??

I didn't make any assumptions on other nations...just stated fact from this end, as to how the USAF operates.

Does anyone realise that in the article it states the F-15Cs were at a 3 to 1 disadvatage? That is similar to boxing with one hand behind your back

oh, but haven't you read? The U.S. is now at the mercy of any and all countries who employ any and all Russian technology. We simply should just give in and start buying Migs(especially those 'stealthy' 21s) and Sus to keep up, then maybe we can defend ourselves.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Does anyone realise that in the article it states the F-15Cs were at a 3 to 1 disadvatage? That is similar to boxing with one hand behind your back

I'm not going to address many of the assertions/counter-assertions in this thread (I don't agree with many of them from either side, and in anycase the bitter argument is about basically trivialisms; especially when you factor into account that the MKI costs about half of AESA equipped F-15 and still gives comparative, if not unconditional, performace, with relative superiority of performance in certain characteristics), but I have to address this.

There have been 3 or 4 threads about cope India results in this forum, and in every single one of them, this claim of USAF being outnumbererd has been parroted to a T.

The claim of being outnumbered is exceedingly disingenuous. USAF planes were outnumbered simply by the fact that they participatde in exercises in a host country.

However, in terms of the DACT red v. blue deployments, IAF and USAF teams fielded similar numbers against opposing forces. In these exercises, the report publicly revealed by Congress showed that IAF teams fared better (mission success rate) in these than their USAF counterparts.

For a more comprehensive take, please see my post in this page:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

We can continue discussion of it if you like in this thread.


-Raj

Originally posted by Hockeyguy567
And the AIM-120C-7 has a max range of 70km, while the AIM-120C-8 or AIM-120D will have a range from 100-140km.

"The AIM-120C-7 (P3I Phase 3), development of which has begun in 1998, incorporates improved ECCM with jamming detection, an upgraded seeker, and longer range. The latter feature was specifically requested by the U.S. Navy to get a (somewhat) suitable replacement for the AIM-54 Phoenix very-long range missile, which was then planned to be retired together with the F-14D Tomcat around 2007 (actual official retirement was already in Spetember 2004). The AIM-120C-7 was successfully tested against combat-realistic targets in August and September 2003, and IOC was then planned for 2006

The designation AIM-120D refers to a projected version of the AIM-120C with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range. The AIM-120D is a joint USAF/USN project, and current plans call for an IOC on the F/A-18E/F in FY2008. "


www.designation-systems.net...

none of those are fully developed, and will take a long time to come