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Origin of Freemasonry and other questions(for masons)

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posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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God, sorry. I didn't realize I was being such an idiot, making you think I was talking about the hidden.

I was talking about the occult side of the word Occult.

Now you feel me? No, didn't think so.

Some believe the world arose out of chaos. Does that make chaos a Supreme being? Apparently, as Ordo Ab Chao.




posted on Feb, 14 2005 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
I was talking about the occult side of the word Occult.


How profound.


Some believe the world arose out of chaos. Does that make chaos a Supreme being? Apparently, as Ordo Ab Chao.


From a VERY good source regarding Ordo ab chao:



Me: Does Ordo ab Chao translate to Order from Chaos?

Him: Yes. It's a motto of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, and refers to the primeval movement of the Great Architect of the Universe in establishing rational order in the Universe.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The builders of the great pyramid were something special

I don't know if the masons claim to have made the pyramids. I suspect not, since it'd've been a 'pagan' item, whereas the great jewish temple is certifiably part of the christian tradition. I think that that explains why these english labourers wouldn't have a problem with having their guild started by some foreigner named 'hiram' of all things. I mean, people weren't exactly multicultural in those days.

On the pyramids replication, I do recall haveing at least heard of a small group that used 'primitive-esque' means to recreat a small scale version of one. So take that for what its worth.


Leveller
The story of the Temple is used as an allegory. It's symbolic.

In the text I have I get the impression that its intended to be taken as literal truth, tho the 'audience' is perhaps even operative freemasons, so perhaps its as uncritically accepted as other things taken as allegorical today, but literal then?


akilles
any one cares to notice, the Freemason George Washington, commemorated in stone

Oh, oh I see, so now that myself and axeman have found the pic of the statue and discussedit , or at least attempted to discuss it with you in another thread, you come here, post a pic that we found, and try to start it again? What, do you only know a few things and have to keep it revolving around that. Why do you bring it up here, if you wont answer the questions there, namely, why is it that the statue does not resemble levi's baphomet in anyway other than being seated and having an armed raised (even tho thy sit differently and the hands areheld in distinctly different ways)? Why does the GEo statue resemble the neo-classicla style more strongly? What are the connections between the actual designer of the statue and levi? Why is it that the statue has nothign to do with baphomet, but everything to do with the romanesque representation of washington as 'cinncinatus', since he was 'the american cincinatus'?
www.abovetopsecret.com...



As above , so below.

In saying this, your post is more similiar to the baphomet drawing that the washington statue, since that motto is on the baphomet drawing.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by stalkingwolf
Ok I will reread the sections tonight and make notes for ya. It is an interesting book. the title is The Spirit of Masonry. Makes it more interesting that it was first published in 1775.


You forget about me buddy?

I'll probably end up buying it (if I can find it) anyway but for the benifit of others and all...

[edit on 2/15/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 10:16 PM
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Hey, sorry i havent posted in a while, computer problems ou might say.
This thread sure is getting long, lol, what was with that reaaaalllly long masonic oath argument?!?!
Wow, i could care less what the "correct" oath is, lol, but i guess ya'll seem to care alot, but anyways, back to discussion.


Originally posted by Leveller

*sigh*
So you don't mind what people think of you if it's based on lies?
That in itself might not be dangerous, but what if those lies lead to your life being made miserable or even being put in danger?
You advocate self education - go and look at Nazi propaganda regarding Freemasonry and see what Hitler did to Freemasons. Take a look at what happens when unchecked propaganda is allowed to roam free. In fact, don't just look at the Freemasons in Hitler's instance - take a look at the Jews too. You can see what "outsiders thinking what they want" can do when given false information.

Nobody here purports to be a guardian of the Craft here either. What they do purport to be is part of ordinary society. When other people are spreading lies to have you cast out from that society, branded as a satanist, a corrupter, a pedophile or whatever, don't you think that you have a right to defend yourself?


I would most definately have to agree, with that Leveller, the Jewish-nazi racism was a good example, of letting the wrong ideas/accusations get too big. By the way, did hitler persecute Freemasons in germany also? Is that what your saying, could you tell me more about it thats interesting cause i never once thought about that.

Could someone enlighten me on this "Hiram" murder discussion, hiram is very vaugely familiar, but i cant get my toungue on it.


Originally posted by BlackgaurdXII
The Templar fleet vanished from history after the 1307 seizures. Scotland was one of very few nations that were a safe haven, and the cemetaries in Scotland contain Templar graves. Also the Scottish military coincidentally learned the latest tactics and strategies of warfare right at the same time. Information only Crusader Knights would likely have known. The much larger English army was not yet trained in these new methods.
Masonry began in Scotland, another coincidence, I guess.
The Sinclair family and the Rosslin chapel they built is full of Templar/Masonic carvings, and was built in the 1400's. Henry Sinclair made more than one trip to Nova Scotia, coincidentally the same place that the cunningly engineered Oak Island money pit was dug. This treasure pit required manpower, and very advanced engineering to complete, the Templar fleet is possibly the only source of both of these things.


I also agree with that, i don't believe those were all just mere coincidences. Many of them seem to connect to one another to often. And could king Philip have really gotten EVERY single Templar knight killed, i mean a couple must have escaped im sure?
I am reading a book called The Atlantis Bluepriint by Colin Wilson, et al., in the book they(the authors) are discussing extremely old Maps in the point that many of them have the Americas mapped out hundreds of years before Columbus was alive, which is odd. And it obviously means Europeans, or whomever, had visited the americas far before Columbus already. However the reason i bring this up is that they mention the Templar fleet that vanished in 1307, as if they felt their were links or something, i can't remember the details, sorry. However that is interesting.



If any one cares to notice, the Freemason George Washington, commemorated in stone, doing none other than the Occult hand signal "as above so below" - otherwise known as the symbol of 'Baphomet'.

And that means what? You should be researching the lineage of the sculptor that designed the statue, i could have sworn that he was an illuminatist or something. However i'll look up info. on the sculptor, does someone know the name of the designer/lead sculptor?
Don't judge so quikly, just because it's a statue of a freemason that doesnt mean jack if the sculptor wasnt a freemason, he might have been anti-masonic or something and purposefully positioned George to symbolize Baphomet trying to make people(that new its relation to Baphomet) believe freemasonry is satanic. Judge by actions, not one sighted views that turn very quickly into false assumptions.
Another thing having to do with the particular hand gesture by the way. This might actually be an ancient masonic gesture that was used long ago, during the knights Templar, or developed from the Knights Templar. Someone in the church might have easily known this gesture and changed portraits of Baphomet into these now modern gestures. The church does stuff like that alot, or well they did, sorry. Heck Baphomet might have been completely made up by the catholic church or by King Philip
as well. Research the origin of Satanism, you will find that in a way Satanism was actually made by the catholic church! lol, but let's not go into that. Try researching the history of the existance, or worship of Baphomet, and then we can make better assumptions.



Axeman, just because I don't reveal something to the ignorant likes of yourself does not mean that I myself am IGNORANT of it. Think about it.

Can we stop the insults and disrespect please? Insults are what make good discussions go bad. I'm not just talking to Akkilles of course though by the way.


Originally posted by Nygdan
Oh, oh I see, so now that myself and axeman have found the pic of the statue and discussedit , or at least attempted to discuss it with you in another thread, you come here, post a pic that we found, and try to start it again? What, do you only know a few things and have to keep it revolving around that. Why do you bring it up here, if you wont answer the questions there, namely, why is it that the statue does not resemble levi's baphomet in anyway other than being seated and having an armed raised (even tho thy sit differently and the hands areheld in distinctly different ways)? Why does the GEo statue resemble the neo-classicla style more strongly? What are the connections between the actual designer of the statue and levi? Why is it that the statue has nothign to do with baphomet, but everything to do with the romanesque representation of washington as 'cinncinatus', since he was 'the american cincinatus'?

Nygdan has some major points there too by the way, try to see all sides i say again.
By the way was Mozart(someone twe were discussing on the first page previously) affliated with the illuminati or freemasons? Someone said a couple of his operas were like honoring those two or something. Thanks, just curious!

Best wishes,
Dani




[edit on 15-2-2005 by Vesuvius 13]



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
By the way was Mozart(someone twe were discussing on the first page previously) affliated with the illuminati or freemasons? Someone said a couple of his operas were like honoring those two or something. Thanks, just curious!

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Vesuvius 13]


You should get out more!
"The Magic Flute" uses a LOT of masonic symbolism in it. Mozart was a freemason and apparently received aid from his lodge when he was between operas and other work. The play/movie "Amadeus" posited that he was actually in danger from the Masons for revealing their secrets. Anyone who has seen "The Magic Flute" will notice a lot of interesting things going on, and a lot of symbols used, but no Masonic secrets were revealed. The REAL story is that that opera was actually partly commissioned by his Lodge and apparently they enjoyed it!

[edit on 15-2-2005 by davidg]



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 11:10 PM
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The REAL story, was that Mozart's childhood ability (gee, did you know he was a prodigy) is linked to him probably having Disassociative Identity Disorder (more commonly misdiagnosed as Schizophrenia).

His Godfather was Franz Anton Mesmer. No introduction necessary (or you should educate yourself on the topic, for fear of ignorance).

In fact he raised Mozart. He also liked to experiment with DC current electricity, very new at the time. He was attempting to induce amnesia, and more.

Having just been discovered by Benjamin Franklin, oh don't you know. He was Ambassador to France, and was asked by the French Government to investigate Mesmer's claims of healing using electricity. So we know they knew each other.

Any way, the Disassociative Identity Disorder is indicative of Mind Control that was performed on young Mozart to increase his musical abilities at the detriment to other 'faculties'.

And they were all Freemasons.

Hmm, the Ancient Egyptians had light bulbs that worked, yet Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity. I smell a link.



posted on Feb, 15 2005 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
The REAL story, was that Mozart's childhood ability (gee, did you know he was a prodigy) is linked to him probably having Disassociative Identity Disorder (more commonly misdiagnosed as Schizophrenia).

His Godfather was Franz Anton Mesmer

Wha? Really. Dang, that is interesting.




Any way, the Disassociative Identity Disorder is indicative of Mind Control that was performed on young Mozart to increase his musical abilities at the detriment to other 'faculties'.

Are you actually claiming that illuminati-masonic agents made this child undergo mind-controll sessions and fractured his mind into multiple controllable personalities in order to get him to make good music? And wasn't this result froma technique that at least supposed to have only been invented by the mk-ultra program? Or at least in that time frame, not mozarts?


Hmm, the Ancient Egyptians had light bulbs that worked, yet Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity. I smell a link.

Wow, you are really stretching it there. And why didn't franklin invent the lightbulb?

Any way, are you going to address the questions brought to you, such as why you are bringing up washington, and now apparently have dropped that and are pushing some mozart conspiracy?



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan


His Godfather was Franz Anton Mesmer

Wha? Really. Dang, that is interesting.



Not true yet again, I'm afraid.
Mesmer was one of Mozart's patrons. Mesmer himself was considered something of a musician - he used music in his therapy works and he recognised Mozart's talent. He was an early patron but certainly not one of Mozart's first. Mesmer first met Mozart at the age of 12 through his father Leopold, after he commisioned one of his operas.
Many other musicians approached Mesmer for what they deemed to be his "musical cure" and it is possible that he treated Mozart.
It should be noted that Mesmer's work was concentrated on magnetism rather than electricity.

Franklin did study Mesmer's works (he was on a panel of scientists that was commisioned by the French king - probably to discredit him) but he concluded that they had no scientific basis. The panel reported that Mesmer's results were due to his good salesmanship and his patient's imagination, and that his "animal magnetism" was really the faith of the patient. Now believed to be a charlatan, Mesmer retired to his native Switzerland.

He died in poverty at the age of 81.

[edit on 16-2-2005 by Leveller]



posted on Feb, 16 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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Actually, he's now believed to be Father of Hypnotism.

So Leveller, you have separated Electricity and Magnetism, huh?

And the 'fact' that Ben Franklin said Mesmer's work had no scientific basis, do I even need to explain the conspiracy here?

Behaviourism, conditioning, brainwashing, indoctrination, trained response, being spell-Bound, Thought Reform, hypnosis, and Mind Control.
All the same thing, people. And it has been around A LONG TIME, thus the need for secrecy, and discrediting the topic.



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by akilles
Actually, he's now believed to be Father of Hypnotism.

So Leveller, you have separated Electricity and Magnetism, huh?


Electricity and Magnetism are seperate. Very seperate. Really really damn seperate.


And the 'fact' that Ben Franklin said Mesmer's work had no scientific basis, do I even need to explain the conspiracy here?


That conspiracy would have to lay on top of a deeper conspiracy that apparently has no goal but to make good music. That seems VERY doubtful.


Behaviourism, conditioning, brainwashing, indoctrination, trained response, being spell-Bound, Thought Reform, hypnosis, and Mind Control.
All the same thing, people. And it has been around A LONG TIME, thus the need for secrecy, and discrediting the topic.


Certainly if they're going to all this trouble with Mozart they must of had some reason right? Make music? No I doubt it.

SO WHAT WAS THE REASON?

note to Akilles: The only part of this that needs to be answered is the reason that all these masons would get together and conduct all this on young Mozart?



posted on Feb, 17 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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"Electricity and Magnetism are seperate. Very seperate. Really really damn seperate."
For the record, Mesmer would run DC current OVER your head, meaning you were not in touch with the electricity, but rather in its magnetic field.
Electromagnetism, buddy. Its one system of equations in physics, so very similar. Very very much the same thing, in a different form.

You make it sound like Mozart was famous, and they recruited him. You have to understand, in their eyes, he was a nobody (a Baby, after all), and they made him a prodigy, they made him famous.

So the goals include:
1) Can they mind control someone.
2) Can they greatly increase a certain ability (music, could just as well be assembling and shooting guns), or develop latent talent through conditioning.
3) Can he be exhibited right under people's noses, and be made famous (make him highly visible)
4) Can he, in fact, be the first Mind Controlled Icon.

If you believe a poor family had a piano they didn't need, and as a baby Mozart just wouldn't stop plonking on those keys, then dream on, I won't bother your slumber.

This might sound cruel, but I don't believe Mozart got something for nothing, in his musical ability. Unfortunately, what he got, was probably quite a shock to him
.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 05:24 AM
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Originally posted by akilles
You make it sound like Mozart was famous, and they recruited him. You have to understand, in their eyes, he was a nobody (a Baby, after all), and they made him a prodigy, they made him famous.




Yet again - false.
Mozart didn't meet Mesmer until he was 12.
When he was 6, he and his older sister, Maria Anna, embarked on a series of concert tours to Europe's courts and major cities. When he was 8, he was playing at the Royal Court in Vienna. When he was 9, he was playing at the Royal Court in Versailles.

Hardly a nobody.

Yet again we have a subject you know nothing about, yet you fill in the gaps with ignorance.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 08:34 AM
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Originally posted by akilles
Actually, he's now believed to be Father of Hypnotism.

So Leveller, you have separated Electricity and Magnetism, huh?

Electricity and magnetism are united as the 'electro-magnetic forces'. Move a metal in a magnetic field and you generate an electric current and vice veras. But they are somewhat different in application, as should be obvious.


And the 'fact' that Ben Franklin said Mesmer's work had no scientific basis, do I even need to explain the conspiracy here?

Yes, you do, since you've said that both were part of the same evil masonic conspiracy.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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OK, I will make it clear.

Franklin said that Electricity has no effect on the human body's health, don't worry!

Magnetism and brain, thats hogwash!

And yet he himself had seen what Mesmer was privately capable of. Mesmer RAISED Mozart, you have nothing to suggest they met up at age 12 other than the hope that things are not as they seem.

Why would Frankin say, "Yes, it can be quite effective to shock people and make them disassociative personalities. Alternately, using the magnetic field in combination with drugs, at specific frequencies we have been able to produce states of suggestibility and trance."

This was a secret shared by Mesmer, Franklin and some others. How am I implying that ALL Freemasons have this knowledge? Of course it has been kept from you as well, yet if you look into history (or any Kabalist-studying Grimm brothers fairy tale) there it is time and again, the secret of controlling another human being (spellbound, hypnotized, brain washed, mind controlled).



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
And yet he himself had seen what Mesmer was privately capable of. Mesmer RAISED Mozart, you have nothing to suggest they met up at age 12 other than the hope that things are not as they seem.




On the contrary. Everything suggests that Mesmer met Mozart at that age.
And even so, Mozart would not have become a Mason until he was 18 - well after that time. So, once again, your argument is illogical.
As for Mesmer "raising" Mozart? Show your proof.
Try to avoid this site - illuminati-news.com....
I reckon that might cause you problems though as you have plagiarised everything that you have written in this thread from there.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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"He was known as the most kissed boy in Europe."
"Mozart was ill a lot and many people wandered how much longer he would live." (as a child)
"Several early members of the family were master masons"
"Leopold Mozart saw nothing improper in exhibiting, or in exploiting, his son's God-given genius for music"
"Of the seven children Anna Maria Mozart had, Wolfgang was one of the only two that survived beyond infancy. The other baby that survived was Mozart's sister, Maria Anna, who was five years older than he. She was also a child prodigy in music,"

"He was known to be very talkative, easily manipulated, undisciplined, and immature."
And then many sites speak of how badly developed he was as an adult,
"He had no friends his own age to play with, he was always around adults, his education was neglected, and he was over praised. He grew up dependent upon his father."

And yet, you think all this happened by accident? I am saying, at the least, his father MADE SURE he learnt how to play an instrument, the rest you can flat out deny, but to me all of the comments above show that his Father made money from more than just his music (Royals hanging out with the most kissed boy in Europe, not a good recipe).

The fact that his sister was considered 'a lesser prodigy' showed that his father knew at the least 'a technique' force Mozart's musical ability to develop. And his early ancestors were Master Masons in the literal (architectural) sense.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
And yet, you think all this happened by accident? I am saying, at the least, his father MADE SURE he learnt how to play an instrument, the rest you can flat out deny, but to me all of the comments above show that his Father made money from more than just his music (Royals hanging out with the most kissed boy in Europe, not a good recipe).

The fact that his sister was considered 'a lesser prodigy' showed that his father knew at the least 'a technique' force Mozart's musical ability to develop. And his early ancestors were Master Masons in the literal (architectural) sense.


WOW As neither a Mason or an anti-Mason, this is the most convoluted reasoning I have read here. Does it take you 2 hours to pick between a PB&J or a ham sandwich because a Mason somewhere MAY own a peanut farm or a pork slaughterhouse? Jeez.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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Waiting #2 akilles.



posted on Feb, 18 2005 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by akilles
"He was known as the most kissed boy in Europe."


That's because he was one of the most well travelled boys in Europe.


"Mozart was ill a lot and many people wandered how much longer he would live." (as a child)


We are talking about Europe in the 18th century Infant mortality and infant illness was commonplace.


"Several early members of the family were master masons"


Several? Proof please.


"Leopold Mozart saw nothing improper in exhibiting, or in exploiting, his son's God-given genius for music"


Is that really so unusual?


"Of the seven children Anna Maria Mozart had, Wolfgang was one of the only two that survived beyond infancy. The other baby that survived was Mozart's sister, Maria Anna, who was five years older than he. She was also a child prodigy in music,"


See my referral to infant mortality. As for Maria Anna being musical? You reckon that they could have been Illuminati forerunners of The Jacksons?


"He was known to be very talkative, easily manipulated, undisciplined, and immature."


Aren't most kids? Jeez. I'd say that the infant Mozart exhibited exactly the same negative characteristics that you do.



And then many sites speak of how badly developed he was as an adult,
"He had no friends his own age to play with, he was always around adults, his education was neglected, and he was over praised. He grew up dependent upon his father."


A lot of geniuses are "tortured geniuses". Or do you deny this reality also?


And yet, you think all this happened by accident? I am saying, at the least, his father MADE SURE he learnt how to play an instrument,


Do parents in your world not encourage their children?


the rest you can flat out deny, but to me all of the comments above show that his Father made money from more than just his music (Royals hanging out with the most kissed boy in Europe, not a good recipe).


Of course his father made money. Mozart was a paid performer. He was a professional musician. Are you telling me that it's unusual for the parents of child performers to make money from their progeny's talent?
"His father made money from more than just his music?" Would you like to elaborate on that statement? From the "most kissed boy in Europe" statement, I would guess that you're pointnig out some sort of pedophilia incident. Hmmm. Where's your evidence? One has to wonder what sort of mind can conjur pedophilia out of a non-existant conspiracy. Maybe you need to see a doctor?


The fact that his sister was considered 'a lesser prodigy' showed that his father knew at the least 'a technique' force Mozart's musical ability to develop.


Well, if his father had this great "technique", why didn't he use it on the sister also? He would have doubled his money.


Yet again you talk crap. The amazing thing is that your comments don't actually have any relevance to this subject. To make matters worse, some of them are just plain wrong.



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