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Origin of Freemasonry and other questions(for masons)

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posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 10:16 PM
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Okay i have been dying to ask/post these questions about freemasonry for a lonnnnnnngggg time, so im finally going to do it. I would much prefer it if freemasons themselves(such as masonic light, whose posts i see the most
would answer these questions. I'm not looking for mindless contradictions from conspiracy theorists who seem to think that every secret society around is evil, satanic and attached to the NWO, even if they have nothing to support their theory's/claims. All though later on, i'd like to welcome all opinions on freemasonry from nonmasons also, just to start an interesting debate lol, since i don't believe masons are much gunna be bothered by the exercise of freewill. I can't think of every question at the same time, i'd like to use this post to keep popping up questions, instead of starting a new thread. Many thanks in advance!!!


1) What date did the order of freemasonry actually start, and who started it? I've heard that St. Germain did, but that was from merely one source.

2) How often do masons in your local areas, or lodges have meetings or w/e. and what is it that you discuss? (if your alowd to tell me lol)

3) In your lodges, or when you become a mason are taught things? Such as it's secrets, or secrets not necessarily about freemasonry itself, but perhaps about world mysteries also, such as the great pyrimids?

4) Do you have any code of honor, or oath?

5) Under the aspect of spirituality does freemasonry stand in any one place as a whole? I often hear that some masons are christian, others are hindu even, or Buddhist, or wiccan maybe. However do you all have one certain belief about God itself? Since the most oftenly heard religions mentioned on ATS by masons seem to only involve one Main God, including hinduism. If that's a confusing question skip it and ill try a better definitive way of asking.

6) How many freemasons could you name, or at least number, that are in high orders of the government right now in america.(or britain too)

7) In another thread, called "DNA activation", under the paranormal studies forums. I posted something very long about Kundalini energy when someone whom agreed with my post also posted info. on kundalini eneryg/DNA activation, and said that raising this serpent fire(kundalini) is one of many great masonic traditions. To be exact this was posted by Flangegasket, i asked him about this however he hasn't replyed so i thought i might as well ask in this post. Heres a link to the thread i am talking about. www.abovetopsecret.com...

I can't remember alot of my questions now lol, ill think of them some more tommorow perhaps, but this will do for now, thankyou!
Best wishes,
Dani

[edit on 2-2-2005 by Vesuvius 13]




posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13


1) What date did the order of freemasonry actually start, and who started it? I've heard that St. Germain did, but that was from merely one source.


The date that is officially given is 1717 which is when the Grand Lodge of England was formed. But we think that Freemasonry was around in some form before as there are documents such as the Regius manuscript. This dates to around 1390. It was certainly in existence in the 1600s. Beyond that, we can only speculate.


2) How often do masons in your local areas, or lodges have meetings or w/e. and what is it that you discuss? (if your alowd to tell me lol)


My Lodge meets once a month. But there is normally another Lodge meeting in the area so if I want, I can get out and visit on near enough any day of the week. Discussions vary from Masonic theory to charity, to just a good plain old chat at the bar with a pint.


3) In your lodges, or when you become a mason are taught things? Such as it's secrets, or secrets not necessarily about freemasonry itself, but perhaps about world mysteries also, such as the great pyrimids?


Not really. Freemasonry uses things symbolically so any interpretation is up to the individual.There's no "the keys to Atlantis are hidden down the back of the sofa" type of thing.


4) Do you have any code of honor, or oath?


We do have a code of honour. It is to be as morally just and as faithful to the world in which we live as we can. We are told that we should also always strive to better ourselves in this department. We do take an obligation, but a lot of it is symbolic and it specifically states that our duties are to our gods, family, friends, careers and laws before Freemasonry.


5) Under the aspect of spirituality does freemasonry stand in any one place as a whole? I often hear that some masons are christian, others are hindu even, or Buddhist, or wiccan maybe. However do you all have one certain belief about God itself? Since the most oftenly heard religions mentioned on ATS by masons seem to only involve one Main God, including hinduism. If that's a confusing question skip it and ill try a better definitive way of asking.


It's not a confusing question unless you are asking it with the idea that Freemasonry is a religion. It is not. You heard correctly that Freemasonry accepts men of all Faiths. It actively encourages them to strengthen those faiths by studying his book of religion and never interferes with a man's belief in his God. Notice the use of the plural for "gods" in my previous answer? That's because there is no masonic God other than the one that the man who joins Masonry brings with him. Freemasonry doesn't dictate to any of it's members who or what they should worship.


6) How many freemasons could you name, or at least number, that are in high orders of the government right now in america.(or britain too)


In the UK, very, very few. The government that we are under at the moment has sometimes used Freemasonry as a scapegoat to take the public's eyes off it's own failings. They have a "we screwed up, let's blame the Masons" attitude. They have attempted to bring in the same laws that were used by the Nazis to identify Jews and had to be fought in the European Court of Human Rights. Certainly, the people that sit in government now can be easily construed as anti-Freemasonry. It's also a fallacy that Freemasonry makes up the bulk of the judiciary. I believe at last count the total percentage of Freemasons in law was 5%. The people in the judiciary were amongst the first to be required by law to state that they were members of Freemasonry.


I hope this answers some of your questions.



[edit on 3-2-2005 by Leveller]



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
1) What date did the order of freemasonry actually start, and who started it? I've heard that St. Germain did, but that was from merely one source.

Thats a new one. The masonry text that I have has the old masons themselves attributing their 'craft' the biblical times, to the masons assigned to the building of the first great jewish temple in jerusalem, and specifically a man named 'Hiram Abif'. Interestingly, this would infact give them an origin outside the judaeo-christian religion, insofar as the builders of the temple, in the bible anyways, are not jews, but a different group of semites who were pagans. c.f. Phonecians infact. Of course, this is a story that, from what I understand, is told within masonry, especially back in slightly less than modern times.



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
1) What date did the order of freemasonry actually start, and who started it? I've heard that St. Germain did, but that was from merely one source.


As Leveller mentioned, the modern Grand Lodge system came into existence in London in 1717, when four Lodges previously chartered by the Masons Company of London held a joint meeting and resolved to form a Grand Lodge. Prior to this, Freemasonry first existed in the middle ages as a stonemasons' guild and later, probably beginning in the 16th century, began to take on the characteristics of a gentleman's club.


2) How often do masons in your local areas, or lodges have meetings or w/e. and what is it that you discuss? (if your alowd to tell me lol)


Most Lodges meet once per month to conduct business. This usually consists of first the Secretary reading the minutes of the previous meeting for confirmation, receiving and referring petitions of potential candidates who wish to join, voting on petitions, unfinished business, then finally new business. Masonic meetings follow the protocols of Robert's Rules of Order.


3) In your lodges, or when you become a mason are taught things? Such as it's secrets, or secrets not necessarily about freemasonry itself, but perhaps about world mysteries also, such as the great pyrimids?


Each degree has its own secrets which are given to the candidate as part of the initiation ritual. These secrets consist of signs, passwords, handshakes, etc., and concern only Freemasonry. There are teachings in the degrees aside from these things, but these teachings concern ethics and philosophy, and are not secret.


4) Do you have any code of honor, or oath?


Masons must willingly adopt a code of honor in order to join, which is formalized in assuming the various obligations of the degrees, where he vows to obey the Moral Law and to pass Freemasonry on to posterity in its purity.


5) Under the aspect of spirituality does freemasonry stand in any one place as a whole? I often hear that some masons are christian, others are hindu even, or Buddhist, or wiccan maybe. However do you all have one certain belief about God itself? Since the most oftenly heard religions mentioned on ATS by masons seem to only involve one Main God, including hinduism. If that's a confusing question skip it and ill try a better definitive way of asking.


Masonry unites men of all religious beliefs and political persuasions into a vast fraternal association of friends and brothers. This is why we say that Masonry is universal, i.e., it's teachings can be accepted by any good man regardless of his religion or politics.


6) How many freemasons could you name, or at least number, that are in high orders of the government right now in america.(or britain too)


There are a couple of Senators who are Masons, and a few members of the U.S. House. I know that one of the Democratic Congressmen from Fla. is a Mason, but I don't remember his name. In the Senate, Trent Lott is a Mason. U.S. Senator Fritz Hollings (D- SC) is a Mason, but he retired last week, and was replaced by a Republican non-Mason.



[edit on 3-2-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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Okay, thankyou very much for the replies so far!


First of all, this is intended towards the reply by Nygdan.
THe information you presented sounded more like the masons your reference was refferrring to as, were probably REAL masons. Real masons meaning, like the builder type masons, not the brotherhood of masons type guys.

About my question towards freemasonry's origin, it loks alot like the Knights Templar may have in some way been atrributed to the beginning of freemasonry, what do you all think? Although mainly connected to the priory of Sion of course, the knights Templar were mavericks, much like most of the masons through out history.
No one seems to have been able to answer my 7th question, but oh well.

And here are some more questions id like to ask, thankyou again in advance for your help.

8)I notice quite a few metaphysical and new age books published by masons it seems. Such as one i believe i found the other day at barnes n' Noble, called The Sirius Mystery: new evidence to support something somethin, i forget, but it's about extraterrestrial visits from the ancient times and such. At the rear of this authors book, he had a chapter, specifically intitled "a not about freemasonry", i was checking it out and obviously i believe this guy was a mason. The book also looked very excellent, and i can't wait to read it, lol.
So the question here is do freemasons often publish books on subjects similar to this one on the market, even when they don't reveil their masonry? Could you maybe point out some other books similar to the Sirius mystery too, on similar subjects lol, i'd enjoy them, thankyou.

9) This question is directed towards Masonic light, im wondering what your signature says lol, would u please tell me, it obviously looks latin to me.

10) Are the like alot of different sects of freemasonry today, similar to how their are alot of different sects of christianity(when their SHOULDN'T be! Simply b/c its a religion). Sorry had to let that out...lol

11) What are the other freemasons views on other secret societies? Such as the Illuminati for example. I'm always hearing that the illuminati infiltrates everybody and oooh all that dramatic suspensful power feeling stuff. Do you believe they do also? And if so do you really even care?

12) Is their like ONE big dog Grandmaster of the freemasons? If so, is he publically known to the world also, like not as a mason of course, but like someone nobody suspects maybe.
Thats all for now thankyou
Dani



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 10:17 PM
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Well, I'm not a Mason but I think I can answer some of your questions. I'll leave those I don't know or directed at others for them.


Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
THe information you presented sounded more like the masons your reference was refferrring to as, were probably REAL masons. Real masons meaning, like the builder type masons, not the brotherhood of masons type guys.


The modern day speculative Masons did in fact come from the old stonemasons guilds. See in the Middle Ages alot of the workforce were serfs, or bound to the owners of the land the lived and worked on. The guilds were groups of operative Masons, who were free to go to foreign countries and work as stonemasons. Well in those times they had secret words and handshakes and other signs to show that they were Master Stonemasons, apprentices or journeymen or whatever. Anyways so as the lodges of Stnemasons grew it started attracting people who really didn't work in stone, called "Speculative Masons" and the lodges kind of started changing from a workman's guild to more of a gentlemen's club of sorts. Before long you had the "Speculative Masons" outnumbering the "Operative Masons" and in 1717 (I think) the main 4 Lodges in England joined together to form the first Grands Lodge of England, and that is when many say modersn Freemasonry was born. There are documents that place the "Speculative" part starting earlier than that but I think 1717 is the generally accepted date.


About my question towards freemasonry's origin, it loks alot like the Knights Templar may have in some way been atrributed to the beginning of freemasonry, what do you all think? Although mainly connected to the priory of Sion of course, the knights Templar were mavericks, much like most of the masons through out history.


The Templars weren'tmavericks, they were a Monastic Military Order who was under direct control of the Pope. They answered to no king, only the Church. Their history is really fascinating for me, and it's true that Masonry in some area does use the Templar story as an allegory to teach a lesson. The final degree of the York Rite is Knight Templar, and we have a couple at least on this board. ML is one, Senrak is another. They both know alot more than me so I'll leave them to the details. Here's a couple of links to get you started though.

www.masonicinfo.com...



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 08:09 AM
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OK so it's been brought to my attention that I may be in error concerning the stonemasons guilds in England, maybe one of you that are more informed can set me straight, I don't want to be telling people wrong. I was going from memory, I think my info there may be a little flawed.

Thanks guys.



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
THe information you presented sounded more like the masons your reference was refferrring to as, were probably REAL masons. Real masons meaning, like the builder type masons, not the brotherhood of masons type guys.

From what I understand thats indeed what it refers to, and modern masonry (called 'speculative freemasonry) is supposed to have its origins in the actual 'guilds' (something like modern trade unions), and that these guilds practiced 'operative freemasonry', ie, their members were medeval stonemasons, they cut and shaped stone that was to be used for cathedrals/castles what have you. This 'Operative Freemasonry' developed rituals, practices and structure, and these were retained and 'highly ritualized', made 'speculative' in 'modern' freemasonry, where you don't have to be an stone cutter or engineer or anything to join. For example, the 'apron' many masons wear would be a hold over from the old days when an actual mason would wear an apron and maybe keep his level or compass or whatever in its pockets, or just as an apron to keep his clothes clean, maybe having a design or something to indicate who he was, or whatever. 'Speculative' freemasonry comes in an turns the pragmatic apron into a ritual and symbol, it doesn' tjust 'keep yer clothes clean', it 'like, it keeps your clothes cleaaaan man, clean get it'.

Of course thats a paroday but i think it illustrates the concept. Similarly a 'Master Mason' was, well, a 'master' of the craft of cutting and carving stone, but is now a 'Master of The Craft'.

Anyway, thats my outsiders understanding of it, perhaps the masons here would criticize where its inaccurate.



posted on Feb, 4 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13


About my question towards freemasonry's origin, it loks alot like the Knights Templar may have in some way been atrributed to the beginning of freemasonry, what do you all think?


The Templar/Masonic legend probably derived from a speech made to a French Lodge by the Chevalier Michael Andrew Ramsay in 1724. Ramsay did not mention the Templars per se, but he introduced the theory that modern Masonry had chivalric origins dating from the middle ages.

This seems to have been more or less a product of French culture. In England, the Craft had always been patronized by common men; but when it was exported to France, Masonry there became the darling of the aristocracy. It has been theorized by some Masonic historians that although the French aristocracy enjoyed Masonry, they found it indignant to be associated with a society founded by, and based upon, a craftsmen trade, and therefore they invented a chivalric history for the fraternity.



No one seems to have been able to answer my 7th question, but oh well.


Kundalini Yoga is, I would say, more of the work of the Occultist than the Mason. However, there have been many Masons interested in such things, and many Masonic writers have written about Kundalini, most notably J.D. Buck, Albert Pike, and Paul Foster Case.

Actual Kundalini work is not mentioned in Masonry, at least not expressly, but all three of the above writers believed it was transmitted in Masonic symbolism. Indeed, they believed that the "raising" of a Candidate to the degree of Master Mason was symbolic of the Kundalini being raised.



8)I notice quite a few metaphysical and new age books published by masons it seems. Such as one i believe i found the other day at barnes n' Noble, called The Sirius Mystery: new evidence to support something somethin, i forget, but it's about extraterrestrial visits from the ancient times and such. At the rear of this authors book, he had a chapter, specifically intitled "a not about freemasonry", i was checking it out and obviously i believe this guy was a mason. The book also looked very excellent, and i can't wait to read it, lol.
So the question here is do freemasons often publish books on subjects similar to this one on the market, even when they don't reveil their masonry? Could you maybe point out some other books similar to the Sirius mystery too, on similar subjects lol, i'd enjoy them, thankyou.


I've heard of that book, but haven't read it. I don't know if the author is a Mason.

There are a great many books that have been written by Masons, but several are rather far out in left field; just because the author was a Mason doesn't necessarily mean that his interpretation of Masonry is correct. For example, Brother Foster Bailey had written a few Masonic books which, in my opinion, were just plain silly. He was very strongly influenced by his wife, Alice Bailey, who founded a neo-Theosophical Society called Lucis Trust. It appears that Foster simply took his wife's ideas and applied them to Masonry, rather than actually deriving them from Masonry.

Same thing with books like "The Hiram Key", "Holy Blood. Holy Grail", and "Born In Blood". These books are very popular, but do not hold the test of serious research, and have been discredited by historians, both Masonic and non-Masonic ones.

If you're interested in the history and philosophy of Masonry, I'd recommend "The Builders" by Dr. Joseph Fort Newton and "A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" by Henry Wilson Coil. These books are well-researched and provide accurate information.


9) This question is directed towards Masonic light, im wondering what your signature says lol, would u please tell me, it obviously looks latin to me.


Yes, it is Latin, and is a motto of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Masonry. It means: "What virtue hath united, death cannot separate."


10) Are the like alot of different sects of freemasonry today, similar to how their are alot of different sects of christianity(when their SHOULDN'T be! Simply b/c its a religion). Sorry had to let that out...lol


Freemasonry is divided into Rites, but the different Rites should not be considered analogous to different religious sects. All regular Masonry teaches the same sort of things (unlike the different religious sects). The only difference is that the different Rites vary in history and ritual. It is very common to find Masons who belong to more than one Rite.


11) What are the other freemasons views on other secret societies? Such as the Illuminati for example. I'm always hearing that the illuminati infiltrates everybody and oooh all that dramatic suspensful power feeling stuff. Do you believe they do also? And if so do you really even care?


It is known that the Illuminati's founder, Adam Weishaupt, joined a Masonic Lodge for apparently the sole purpose of recruiting Masons to join the Illuminati. This met with some success: many illustrious Bavarian Masons did in fact join the Illuminati, including Goethe, Mozart, Comte de St. Germaine, and possibly even Frederick the Great (although he was Prussian, not Bavarian).

But the real Illuminati was much different than the "Illuminati" of the conspiracy theorists. The real Illuminati was, in fact, quite harmless. They were indeed an underground political society, and their members lived under a very harsh religious dictatorship. They simply wanted their freedom, and were willing to fight for it. It was the Church who demonized them through a monstrous propaganda campaign, and it is easy to see why they would do this. They were able to spread disinformation about the Illuminati in order to make people fear them who would have otherwise supported them.

This is a common technique among conspiracy theorists, and used even today, often against the Masons.


12) Is their like ONE big dog Grandmaster of the freemasons? If so, is he publically known to the world also, like not as a mason of course, but like someone nobody suspects maybe.


Every Jurisdiction has its own Grand Lodge, and the Grand Master is the presiding officer of the Grand Lodge. In the USA, every state, plus the District of Columbia, has its own Grand Lodge; therefore, in the US, there are 51 Grand Masters.

Most Grand Lodges meet once per year to conduct regular business. At this meeting the Grand Officers, including the Grand Master, are elected by the representatives of the individual Lodges. The term of Grand Master lasts for one year in my Jurisdiction, but it is common for him to be elected to a second term if he has served the Fraternity well in that role.

In my Jurisdiction, any Master Mason in good standing who has served a Lodge in the Jurisdiction at least 12 months as an elected Worshipful Master is eligible to run for the office of Grand Master.


[edit on 4-2-2005 by Masonic Light]



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
This met with some success: many illustrious Bavarian Masons did in fact join the Illuminati, including Goethe, Mozart, Comte de St. Germaine, and possibly even Frederick the Great (although he was Prussian, not Bavarian

Wha? If the Illuminati included the Kaiser then why did the establishment surpress it? Even if there was a building hysteria about them?



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Wha? If the Illuminati included the Kaiser then why did the establishment surpress it? Even if there was a building hysteria about them?


The Bavarian government suppressed them, not the Prussian government. Frederick was a very active Freemason, and was not a Catholic. Several members of the Illuminati fled to Prussia after the crackdown in Bavaria, where they were granted asylum.

This, of course, does not prove that Frederick ever became a member of the Illuminati, but he was probably at the very least, sympathetic to their cause.



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
The Bavarian government suppressed them, not the Prussian government.

Ah yes, I forget how de-centralized germany was in the old days


Is anything known about any attempts to reconstitute the group in prussia? I mean, seems like it would be rather strange to just give it up after that, even if in exile. What happens to the members that escape bavaria?



posted on Feb, 5 2005 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Is anything known about any attempts to reconstitute the group in prussia?


Probably not. Only a few years later, after a disinformation campaign launched by the Jesuits against the Illuminati (which still exists, even on this very forum), Weishaupt published all the formerly secret documents of the fraternity in order to prove that the Illuminati's accusers were nothing more than slanderers.

The Order was officially disbanded, and Weishaupt eventually tempered his anti-Catholicism.


I mean, seems like it would be rather strange to just give it up after that, even if in exile. What happens to the members that escape bavaria?


Mozart died under mysterious circumstances. Although most historians believe it was due to typhoid, Mozart himself believed that he was being poisoned. He was buried in a pauper's grave very quickly after his death by Jesuit priests, being denied a proper Masonic burial. Also, interestingly, his final opera, "The Magic Flute", had just been performed for the first time; it was dedicated to both Masonry and the Illuminati, and was strongly anti-Catholic, or at least, anti-Church political power. One conspiracy theory that may possibly be true is that he was murdered by Church agents because his opera, but of course, we'll never know for sure.

Von Knigge, Goethe, and Weishaupt lived the rest of their lives in exile, mostly in Prussia. As for St. Germaine, some say he's still around.



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 02:10 AM
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Masonic Light, I really enjoy your ability to cut through to the point and how informative your answers are. I've read quite a few different things about Masons, both positive and negative, but your posts are pretty refreshing.
I'm learning alot and reading more about Masonry. I've been interested in it for many years and have encountered alot of disinformation about it and also a lot of good stuff too. Think I'll keep lurking!!


Vesuvius 13, Keep asking questions, I'm learning alot!!!


[edit on 6-2-2005 by sharkman]



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 12:09 PM
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Is there any publication of weishaupts perfectabalists documents then? An editorialized collection perhaps? Did they have 'rites' like with the Masons and OTO and others?



posted on Feb, 6 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Is there any publication of weishaupts perfectabalists documents then? An editorialized collection perhaps? Did they have 'rites' like with the Masons and OTO and others?


Weishaupt published the Illuminati's documents along with his personal memoires in a book called "In Defence of Illuminism".

The Illuminati had 9 regular degrees, with an honorary 10th degree. The 4th, 5th, and 6th degrees of the Illuminati were actually only the first three degrees of Masonry. Weishaupt wrote a couple of more degrees himself, but they were never fully completed or worked. The only actual rituals that the Illuminati performed were the three degrees of Masonry. Their higher degrees, in practice, only consisted of an oath of secrecy, along with a promise to engage in anti-Jesuit and pro-democracy propaganda at the universities.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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Hello,
I apologize for that i have not been on/replyed the past few days, busy life, lol.

About the death of Mozart, what do you think about the play "Amadeus"? Where, whats his name, another famous composer of that time, was claiming guilt for Mozarts death, and his guilt was driving himself insane, b/c of what he had done. Does anybody know when this particular play was written, i have just seen the movie production, it was very good.

About the illuminati, i've often heard that the illuminati did indeed start out as a peacfull society, hince the name, illuminati which is similar to saying the enlightened. However the original illuminati died down, and then however was taken up again, by men whom cared not for good, and were using the name illuminati as a means for decieving people. I too am just going by memory on this, and have no idea how accurate this is even close to being. I guess that's why they call some of them secret societies....lol

Thankyou for the book recommendations masonic, ill have to check them out soon. After i finish the 6 to 7 books im reading currently right now, lol.

I can't remember any questions at the moment ill post again later, thankyou.
BEst wishes,
Dani

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Vesuvius 13]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by Vesuvius 13
About the illuminati, i've often heard that the illuminati did indeed start out as a peacfull society, hince the name, illuminati which is similar to saying the enlightened. However the original illuminati died down, and then however was taken up again, by men whom cared not for good, and were using the name illuminati as a means for decieving people. I too am just going by memory on this, and have no idea how accurate this is even close to being.


If you agree that you don't know how accurate this is, then why do you state it as fact?



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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I never said it was fact, fyi, but anywho...



posted on Feb, 9 2005 @ 11:16 PM
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Phreemasonry's roots seem a lot more ancient than they are being given credit for.

It is only when we expect to see it in the SAME form through all the ages that we find it to have begun rather recently (1717).



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