The latest Feminist deflection

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Yes and there are inconsistencies just like this in every movement. Plus, feminism itself is a very broad label that encompasses and uses a lot of different beliefs. This AGAIN speaks to how pointing out anecdotes of the extremists doesn't help your case. It just shows lazy researching on your part, especially since even you are admitting that feminists have wildly different beliefs between each other.

Inconsistencies in regard to two or more core beliefs? In the other thread I linked before, which I doubt you looked at for more than 1 minute, it goes over what you are objecting to. It's in the opening paragraph. Go read it if you dare.

If feminists have "wildly different beliefs" between them, would you be so kind as to give us a definition of feminism? Or at least point to more than one core belief that is shared by over 90% of the movement? If you can't do either of those, then why call them feminists?

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Dude. I'm not going to read your thread history. For one, I really don't care about your opinions when used as evidence. I care about ACTUAL evidence used as evidence. So I just looked at it briefly then closed the window as more of the same as this thread. Anything said there can be resaid here. It's not like you presented any evidence or did any tests that have to be repeated or anything.

If feminists have "wildly different beliefs" between them, would you be so kind as to give us a definition of feminism? Or at least point to more than one core belief that is shared by over 90% of the movement? If you can't do either of those, then why call them feminists?

Feminism - Definition

Definition of feminism

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Yeah assholeish arrogance is TOTALLY going to convince people of your argument.

Other people are free to decide whether my posting is worthy of being considered "assholeish arrogance". They are free to do so and I won't hold it against them. That does not, however, make what I am saying untrue or implausible.

I am starting to sense a shift here, Krazysh0t, you don't normally resort to ad hominems so easily. What is going on? Do you see me as a threat to your views? Am I striking a nerve? Could what I am arguing actually have some truth to it?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Could what I am arguing actually have some truth to it?

What exactly are you arguing or trying to say???

I've read this whole thread and I am still sort of lost as to what point you're trying to make other than just simply not liking feminists.

Can you restate your position???

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Could what I am arguing actually have some truth to it?

What exactly are you arguing or trying to say???

I've read this whole thread and I am still sort of lost as to what point you're trying to make other than just simply not liking feminists.

Can you restate your position???

I think you just did restate his position. I don't really think there is much more to it.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Sounds about right to me.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Dude. I'm not going to read your thread history. For one, I really don't care about your opinions when used as evidence. I care about ACTUAL evidence used as evidence. So I just looked at it briefly then closed the window as more of the same as this thread. Anything said there can be resaid here. It's not like you presented any evidence or did any tests that have to be repeated or anything.

Then don't. If you believe everything I am saying is just my opinion and has no basis in fact or reason at all, then simply stop replying and head to a thread where the OP does do those to a standard you are happy with.

Feminism - Definition

Definition of feminism

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

1) the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. (Google)

2) Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define and advance political, economic, personal, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. (Wikipedia)

3) the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. (Dictionary.com)

4) The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. (Oxford Dictionary)

5) A social theory or political movement which argues that legal and social restrictions on women must be removed in order to bring about equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life. (Wiktionary.com)

Which definition would you like to use, your one of the other 5 I have mentioned?

If I am missing something which clearly shows they are all the same just said in different words, please be so kind as to help me see what I am missing.

originally posted by: mOjOm
What exactly are you arguing or trying to say???

I've read this whole thread and I am still sort of lost as to what point you're trying to make other than just simply not liking feminists.

Can you restate your position???

The thread has strayed from the particular opening post, which you can go back and check on if you are confused. But since every subsequent reply that didn't relate to that case in particular does relate to the bigger picture of the nature of feminism, I do not feel it is off-topic.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Those definitions are all basically the same. They are all talking about equality between the sexes. Some just point out more specific areas where equality needs work.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'm not saying anyone is off topic, I just don't know what the argument is at this point.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Dude. I'm not going to read your thread history. For one, I really don't care about your opinions when used as evidence. I care about ACTUAL evidence used as evidence. So I just looked at it briefly then closed the window as more of the same as this thread. Anything said there can be resaid here. It's not like you presented any evidence or did any tests that have to be repeated or anything.

Then don't. If you believe everything I am saying is just my opinion and has no basis in fact or reason at all, then simply stop replying and head to a thread where the OP does do those to a standard you are happy with.

Feminism - Definition

Definition of feminism

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

1) the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. (Google)

2) Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define and advance political, economic, personal, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. (Wikipedia)

3) the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men. (Dictionary.com)

4) The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

(Oxford Dictionary)

5) A social theory or political movement which argues that legal and social restrictions on women must be removed in order to bring about equality of both sexes in all aspects of public and private life. (Wiktionary.com)

Which definition would you like to use, your one of the other 5 I have mentioned?

If I am missing something which clearly shows they are all the same just said in different words, please be so kind as to help me see what I am missing.


Yes they are pretty much the same but dependent on context.

If you look up the dictionary definition of almost any word you will find multiple definitions. Often helpful divided into verb/noun or other useful sections. It's​ pretty much how dictionaries work.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
I'm aware you're from Australia. However, the majority of the users on this site are American. So it stands to reason that most of the Men's Rights Activists on this site are also American. If what I typed doesn't apply to you (obviously other than country of origin) than I think it's clear you were not one of the people I was talking about. However, the aggressiveness in your response seems to be quite telling.

I am not a Men's Rights Activist. I do not belong to any group that identifies as such. I do agree with many of their views, but not enough to warrant even being labelled as one.

Did my "aggressive" arguments offend you? Sorry if they did. Come to think of it, what I wrote was pretty harsh, true, but harsh. Maybe I do deserve some harshness back, but at least try and use a reasonable argument when doing so. Otherwise it makes you look insecure about your own beliefs.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Then don't. If you believe everything I am saying is just my opinion and has no basis in fact or reason at all, then simply stop replying and head to a thread where the OP does do those to a standard you are happy with.

Sorry guy, your thread history isn't part of this thread. I'll read whats in this thread, but I'm not getting your life history about your beliefs just so I can understand your position on feminism. I don't care enough about you to do that, no offense. If you think it is important enough to your position, then you should have no problem retyping it out for this thread.

If I am missing something which clearly shows they are all the same just said in different words, please be so kind as to help me see what I am missing.

I thought it would be obvious that the descriptions used are vague and can encompass a WIDE range of beliefs and ideologies while still adhering to those vague descriptions. But hey, I'm happy to point it out to you since you can't see it.

Here's Merrim-Webster's definition I posted again:

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

First off, those two definitions aren't the same thing. The first definition talks about equality of the sexes, plural. And the second definition talks about furthering women's rights. There is overlap there since women largely want to be equal with men, but as you pointed out the crazy misandrists exist too. The misandrists would be covered under definition 2, but not definition 1. Though there is an overarching idea to working towards improving women's position in society. Even definition 1 accounts for this since women are definitely still less equal than men in society. So working towards equality of the sexes would be the same thing, in this instance, as improving women's rights; but that only lasts until women are equal and things start pushing past equality.

Can someone tell me what rights some men feel they've lost on account of feminists???

What rights to men's rights activists think were taken away from them???

Is it really about men's rights or men's privileges that we're talking about??

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Sorry guy, your thread history isn't part of this thread. I'll read whats in this thread, but I'm not getting your life history about your beliefs just so I can understand your position on feminism. I don't care enough about you to do that, no offense. If you think it is important enough to your position, then you should have no problem retyping it out for this thread.

Am I the one complaining about your lack of evidence when reading your replies? Am I the one who barged into YOUR thread and chose to get involved in a discussion I was completely unprepared for? Thinking YOUR OP was completely fabricated nonsense or based on YOUR own opinions exclusively? My position has been consistent and reasonable from the opening post up until this very reply. I have no obligation to retype the same thing over and over again because you don't want to even consider what I am saying is true. I'm not sure who you think you are, but no you do not have the power to demand such things at present.

I thought it would be obvious that the descriptions used are vague and can encompass a WIDE range of beliefs and ideologies while still adhering to those vague descriptions. But hey, I'm happy to point it out to you since you can't see it.

You know, Socialism has a rather nice broad definition. Would you like to discuss the definition of Socialism? Would that give us a good grasp on what exactly the whole system involves? Would we be privy to the negative consequences of implementing it after just reading the definition?

Here's Merrim-Webster's definition I posted again:

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

What does equality refer to in your definition? A law? If not a law, how can we regulate whether the right can be honoured? Please name one political, economic or "social right" a man has that a woman does not.

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

First off, those two definitions aren't the same thing. The first definition talks about equality of the sexes, plural. And the second definition talks about furthering women's rights. There is overlap there since women largely want to be equal with men, but as you pointed out the crazy misandrists exist too. The misandrists would be covered under definition 2, but not definition 1. Though there is an overarching idea to working towards improving women's position in society. Even definition 1 accounts for this since women are definitely still less equal than men in society. So working towards equality of the sexes would be the same thing, in this instance, as improving women's rights; but that only lasts until women are equal and things start pushing past equality.

1) How are women less equal than men in society?
2) If "things start pushing past equality" (even if it is so that they can "last") then you are not speaking about equality. You are speaking about special rights.

You have just contradicted at least one of the definitions you gave before. Which one do you want to focus on so that doesn't happen again?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
I'm always confused by the term Men's Rights Activists. What rights have we lost that justify attacking womanhood as a whole?

None. It exists because traditionalists view rights as some sort of zero-sum game where a group gets new rights that must mean another group has lost them.

What rights do men have that women don't have today?

originally posted by: rockintitz
What rights do men have that women don't have today?

It's ironic, isn't it? Making the claim that "women just want the same rights as men" and just expecting your opponent to agree without providing any reasoning. As though it's a self-evident fact that kinda needs you to be a hater of women to even consider before accepting it as fact.

But ask for them to specify which rights men have that women don't and all of a sudden evidence, reasoning, studies etc. become critical to them even considering what you have said.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Right?

If they just came out and said they want the right to never feel uncomfortable or offended about anything I would at least give them credit for being honest.

Still batsh# crazy, but honest.

originally posted by: mOjOm
Can someone tell me what rights some men feel they've lost on account of feminists???

Here's one of several important ones: Equal opportunity in the legal system in regard to divorce settlements and custody hearings which tend to favour women by a large margin. No, not 50-60%. Try more like 85-95%.

How about another: men can be legally discriminated against on the basis of their sex alone when it comes to hiring a new applicant, whereas women can not.

Another: women can legally oblige a man to pay child support for 18 years regardless of whether he supported her decision to keep the baby. Women can legally have an abortion even if the man wants the baby and offers to support the baby for 18 years.

Want me to go on?

What rights to men's rights activists think were taken away from them???

Here's one that is self-evident from reading the opening post ALONE: a female feminist director cannot release a documentary she made because it has been endorsed and promoted by MRA groups which are assumed to be anti-women. Therefore feminist groups have pressured cinemas that were going to screen the documentary to cave in. Not just on one occasion.

Is it really about men's rights or men's privileges that we're talking about??

The most ironic thing about your post is you don't realise the implication you are making against the legitimacy of MRAs is the exact same argument that CAN be used against feminism. Feminists are afraid to give up the privileges they have reaped since the pendulum swung in their favour.

originally posted by: rockintitz
Right?

If they just came out and said they want the right to never feel uncomfortable or offended about anything I would at least give them credit for being honest.

Still batsh# crazy, but honest.

It is insane. It really is. How can they not realise what is happening after participating in this thread? How is it possible that most of the main proponents of feminism in this thread can be so logical and reasonable in other threads, but NOT on this topic?