The latest Feminist deflection

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Like I said before, I haven't watched the documentary, so can't comment on it specifically, but the article did mention that it discusses the higher rates of suicide with men. I was reading an article on that very subject recently written by a psychologist who said it was because men were less likely to ask for help - they just hold it in until they can't stand it anymore. This, along with men not wanting to admit that a woman physically abused them tells me that men have a problem admitting weakness. That could very well be a symptom of patriarchy, where men are supposed to be considered the stronger sex.

Systemic issues of patriarchy: men don't cry; men don't ask for help; men don't admit weakness.

How about men don't cry because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't ask for help because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't admit weakness because if they do they will be laughed at by feminists.

And why don't men make documentaries about issues facing them that society refuses to recognise as a serious issue worthy of addressing? Because when they do, feminists moan so loud that they are anti-feminist, anti-women, misogynistic hateful idiots who need to be shut down before the rights of women are set back 50 years, and use their privilege to have the documentary shut down so the issue can never be discussed. Yeah, maybe THAT's why.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

You are now even more my friend than I had thought before. Thank you for telling me what I needed to hear. Not what you wanted me to hear.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

My moral of the story: What happened to him is heartbreaking, I wouldn't want that to happen to me ever. I believe we should publicise this story as a way of showing that drinking so much that your vision becomes blurred is not a good idea because it makes you more vulnerable to danger and less likely to be able to defend yourself.

How can you not see that your moral involves the victim having to change his behavior?

YOUR current moral of the story: The man that performed the robbery is an evil degenerate idiot. There is NOTHING the victim could have done, NOTHING that would have stopped him from cracking his head, passing out and having his posessions taklen by this poor excuse for a human being. I believe we should publicise the story as way of showing that people ought not steal from others just because they are passed out on a street. NEVER is it there fault. NEVER are they to blame.

No. My moral of your story is that we need to do things to stop thieves and predators, such as public cameras, more law enforcement officers around, etc. and let the innocent victims alone to live their life as they choose.

Ok, let's be clear here before you start to become hysterical. I asked you a question earlier to clarify YOUR position on whether YOU think getting drunk to the point of your eyes going blurry increases, makes no difference, or decreases your chance of being able to defend yourself.

I know my argument and I am VERY confident I understand exactly what I said and what I meant when saying it.

Why don't we eliminate any confusion for you, me or anybody else reading: what is your answer to that question?

I think you already know my answer.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

You know kaylaluv, for a person that is as physically beautiful as you, and a person who can as frequently demonstrate that she is a kind and compassionate, and reasonable person on many topics, it REALLY is a shame you can allow yourself to be so consumed by such a terribly ugly ideology that all those qualities I mentioned before start to pale in comparison.

What I look like has nothing to do with this discussion. Who I am personally and how I live my life has nothing to do with this discussion.

I don't know what ugly ideology you are referring to. That victims shouldn't have to change their behavior if they aren't hurting anyone? That I feel bad that men can be victims of a patriarchy that makes it harder for them to show any kind of weakness or admit being dominated by a woman?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Ah well, I come from a different generation than you, so maybe that's why I see it differently. Men of my generation were taught as children that boys aren't supposed to cry. Men of my generation tend not to stop and ask for directions. Men of my generation would have a very hard time admitting that they were raped or beaten up by a girl. Men of my generation may have a hard time with a woman paying for everything on a date. I'm not a hundred years old either, so it's not like the issues of the "men are supposed to be stronger" patriarchy is something only seen in history books. It still exists for a lot of men today.

I think it's mostly that men do not want to cry. It's a vulnerability that might have gotten us killed in another epoch.

Yeah, a patriarchal epoch that has remnants still existing today.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
How can you not see that your moral involves the victim having to change his behavior?

You mean his behaviour to get so drunk that his vision was blurred and then he refused the restraint and pleas of his friends to not go outside alone without a trusted friend when he is in such a condition? You mean THAT behaviour? Yes, I WOULD expect him to change his behaviour from that point onward. He cannot go back into the past and change what he has now learned. The ONLY good that can come from his terrible ordeal is to warn everyone he knows (and the public at large) not to get so drunk that his vision is blurred and leave the company of trusted friends (not trust somebody he has never met before is cool because they are from the same "community" as him). What else do you suggest will benefit everyone who was harmed in his experience?

No. My moral of your story is that we need to do things to stop thieves and predators, such as public cameras, more law enforcement officers around, etc. and let the innocent victims alone to live their life as they choose.

Well then your moral is an unrealistic one, unless you are willing to legalise the arrest of somebody based on thought crimes. We already have all those measures in place, except that fact that not EVERYONE is a victim, there ARE perpetrators out there that we cannot judge so on their appearance alone.

I think you already know my answer.

I'll be honest, I do know your answer. YOU know your answer. Every other person who is reading this thread does as well (even the ones who are trying in vain to support you.) But you won't answer it will you? You won't admit that on this one occasion you might be wrong. You might have to admit that I do have a valid point. That what I am saying is NOT driven by hatred of women or trying to blame/shame victims and excuse the perpetrators.

Keeping that in mind, I'll ask you this: do you want to answer the question? That is the real question that has become significant, for YOU, at this point and is now more important than the original question I asked.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

How about men don't cry because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't ask for help because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't admit weakness because if they do they will be laughed at by feminists.

No, it's because they are laughed at by other men. Or bullied and beaten up by other boys at school.

And why don't men make documentaries about issues facing them that society refuses to recognise as a serious issue worthy of addressing? Because when they do, feminists moan so loud that they are anti-feminist, anti-women, misogynistic hateful idiots who need to be shut down before the rights of women are set back 50 years, and use their privilege to have the documentary shut down so the issue can never be discussed. Yeah, maybe THAT's why.

I personally would like to see a documentary that focuses on men as victims of a patriarch society, because I believe that they are victims. For example, a patriarch society has always said that women are to be the caregivers of children. This has turned around to bite men on the ass, because a court will most often give custody of the children to the woman even if she isn't the best one to care for the children.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
How about men don't cry because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't ask for help because when they do they are laughed at by feminists. How about men don't admit weakness because if they do they will be laughed at by feminists.

It isn't feminists who do these things. It's the macho alpha males and the types who want to push alpha male society that do these things. I've never met a self-described feminist who would laugh at a man for crying, asking for help or admitting weakness. In fact, all the ones I know encourage these behaviors in men.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
What I look like has nothing to do with this discussion. Who I am personally and how I live my life has nothing to do with this discussion.

Somebody who views a sincere, genuine compliment as an irrelevant insult...makes you wonder.

I don't know what ugly ideology you are referring to. That victims shouldn't have to change their behavior if they aren't hurting anyone? That I feel bad that men can be victims of a patriarchy that makes it harder for them to show any kind of weakness or admit being dominated by a woman?

Feminism in its current form. That is the ugly ideology I am referring to. Not how it began, not what it has achieved for women. Not what its adherents claims it does. But what it actually does and is doing right now. It is UGLY. TERRIBLY ugly.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I'm not an MRA, but if they have arguments they should be heard. At least they have stated their grievances.

Most feminists I believe are just whining. They have equal rights, they have equal pay, they win the majority of custody battles, get shorter prison sentences, and the list goes on and on.

I figure right about the time women did become equal in the eyes of the law is when feminists realized they had to figure out some new, less important things to bitch about.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Yeah, a patriarchal epoch that has remnants still existing today.

You have now referred to both "the patriarchy" and "a patriarchal epoch" in different replies. Are you referring to the same thing? If so, can you please define what each means or if it pretty much the same, what it does mean?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: kaylaluv
How can you not see that your moral involves the victim having to change his behavior?

You mean his behaviour to get so drunk that his vision was blurred and then he refused the restraint and pleas of his friends to not go outside alone without a trusted friend when he is in such a condition? You mean THAT behaviour? Yes, I WOULD expect him to change his behaviour from that point onward. He cannot go back into the past and change what he has now learned. The ONLY good that can come from his terrible ordeal is to warn everyone he knows (and the public at large) not to get so drunk that his vision is blurred and leave the company of trusted friends (not trust somebody he has never met before is cool because they are from the same "community" as him). What else do you suggest will benefit everyone who was harmed in his experience?

So at least you admit that I am not misrepresenting your argument that the victim needs to change their behavior.

Well then your moral is an unrealistic one, unless you are willing to legalise the arrest of somebody based on thought crimes. We already have all those measures in place, except that fact that not EVERYONE is a victim, there ARE perpetrators out there that we cannot judge so on their appearance alone.

No, I don't think we have all those measures in place. I don't think there were any cameras or law enforcement officers around when the 17-year-old girl was getting gang raped.

I think you already know my answer.

Keeping that in mind, I'll ask you this: do you want to answer the question? That is the real question that has become, for YOU, more important than the original question I asked.

I will answer it again. It is irrelevant whether someone decides to drink too much. What is relevant is that someone (or a group) committed a crime that should be addressed. The crime should be addressed - not what the victim did.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
It isn't feminists who do these things. It's the macho alpha males and the types who want to push alpha male society that do these things. I've never met a self-described feminist who would laugh at a man for crying, asking for help or admitting weakness. In fact, all the ones I know encourage these behaviors in men.

I bet you've never "met" a self-described feminist who supports the genocide of the male sex? Or one that believes 10% of the male population should be kept alive and the rest kept segregated away from the rest of society? Or the one who believes men cannot never use violence against a woman (even in 100% self-defence when his life is in imminent danger)? Or a feminist who agrees with half of the issues I have raised in my opening post alone?

Met any of those types recently? Think I am blatantly lying about all the above just to make a point? Go do your research. Think I am an alpha male who wants to push an alpha male society into existence? You would be wrong.

Wake the hell up.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost
Feminism in its current form. That is the ugly ideology I am referring to. Not how it began, not what it has achieved for women. Not what its adherents claims it does. But what it actually does and is doing right now. It is UGLY. TERRIBLY ugly.

Feminism is the same as it has always been. Men have always hated feminists since they came about; funnily enough the modern versions of these haters acknowledge the gains of previous feminists but refuse to budge on their remaining traditions for further gains for feminists and women in general.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I don't view a compliment as an insult - it just has nothing to do with this discussion, and I'm not sure why you brought it up here. Maybe I should just say off topic?

I'm not obsessed or in favor of anything that is unfair to men in general.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

I must leave to take my daughter to the doctor. I will be happy to respond when I return.

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
It isn't feminists who do these things. It's the macho alpha males and the types who want to push alpha male society that do these things. I've never met a self-described feminist who would laugh at a man for crying, asking for help or admitting weakness. In fact, all the ones I know encourage these behaviors in men.

I bet you've never "met" a self-described feminist who supports the genocide of the male sex? Or one that believes 10% of the male population should be kept alive and the rest kept segregated away from the rest of society? Or the one who believes men cannot never use violence against a woman (even in 100% self-defence when his life is in imminent danger)? Or a feminist who agrees with half of the issues I have raised in my opening post alone?

Met any of those types recently? Think I am blatantly lying about all the above just to make a point? Go do your research. Think I am an alpha male who wants to push an alpha male society into existence? You would be wrong.

Wake the hell up.

Have YOU met any of these people? If so, how many? I'd wager that your exposure to them is 95 to 100% reading about them on the internet.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
So at least you admit that I am not misrepresenting your argument that the victim needs to change their behavior.

Are you implying that in reference to the article linked in the OP, that I would offer the women the same advice about not getting blind drunk and then going outside her home without a trusted friend with her to make sure she is ok? Yes, I would advise her on that. Why wouldn't I? Why are you trying SO hard to make this about rape and urging me at every turn to blame the victim, as though that is going to help anyone except your sense of pride? It won't. My position has been clear and consistent since the opening post.

Can you say the same?

No, I don't think we have all those measures in place. I don't think there were any cameras or law enforcement officers around when the 17-year-old girl was getting gang raped.

So we need law enforcement everywhere any time a female is out in public because she might be at risk? Would the cameras have stopped the rape from happening? The only thing it could have done was make them easier to identify after the crime, but it would not have prevented the rape.

I will answer it again. It is irrelevant whether someone decides to drink too much. What is relevant is that someone (or a group) committed a crime that should be addressed. The crime should be addressed - not what the victim did.

Ok, so you refuse to answer the question. I guess that is good for your pride, but what else?

I made it reasonably clear that the question was important and that I was asking it for an important reason. I even gave you the option of saying "it wouldn't make a difference" but you have chosen instead to label it as irrelevant and not address it. You have decided saving your pride is more important than admitting you were wrong and learning something.

Hmm, you know those nice traits of yours that I mentioned earlier...oh wait, never mind.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Feminism is the same as it has always been. Men have always hated feminists since they came about; funnily enough the modern versions of these haters acknowledge the gains of previous feminists but refuse to budge on their remaining traditions for further gains for feminists and women in general.

That is blatantly false. I even demonstrated so in a recent thread of mine which goes into detail about why most people (not just men) are avoiding the label of feminist and the feminist ideology.

What remaining traditions or privileges do you speak of? What legal or political right do men have that women do not?

originally posted by: Dark Ghost

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Feminism is the same as it has always been. Men have always hated feminists since they came about; funnily enough the modern versions of these haters acknowledge the gains of previous feminists but refuse to budge on their remaining traditions for further gains for feminists and women in general.

That is blatantly false. I even demonstrated so in a recent thread of mine which goes into detail about why most people (not just men) are avoiding the label of feminist and the feminist ideology.

What remaining traditions or privileges do you speak of? What legal or political right do men have that women do not?

I'm sure women would love to be paid the same as men. I'm sure that they'd love for men to stop deciding their reproductive rights too.