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First evidence for higher state of consciousness found

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posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Bedlam

Ahh playing fast and loose with the relevance of meditation and higher consciousness...



Playing fast and loose with the topic so that you can't be pinned down. I'm sure if you rove about the entire #ing topic of psychology, you can find something with 'brainscan' in that isn't relevant at all.

Really, man, come back to earth. The topic is - do hallucinogens create 'higher levels of consciousness'.


So a similar brainscan, from studies having to do with consciousness have no relevance to the topic at hand.

Got it
Maybe your not as good at debate as you are at believing your own ideas.
edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:17 AM
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Normal 'baseline' consciousness correlates to a global neuronal net activity firing frequency of between 12 to 38 HZ designated Beta waves. When we tire and start to fall asleep, a number of neuronal areas in the cortex and deep inside the brain are dampened and reduce the global neuronal net activity firing down to 3 to 8 HZ .

Hallucinogens such as '___' are molecularly similar to the chemical serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter inside the neuron cell. It is especially found in the brain stem, and which from there connects to many regions of the brain. Because of its similarity to serotonin, '___' affects the serotonin in the neurons and interferes with the synaptic cleft.

(As an aside, what neurobiologists need to be deciphering is the language neurons use to communicate with each other. Energy levels and densities, firing frequencies and wavelengths, they just need a biological equivalence to the 'Rosetta Stone', so that they can understand how it all becomes our ordinary daily experience?)

Hallucinogens affect the firing rates and patterns of the neurons, but the hallucinogen perturbation does not affect the actual transcoding into experience, as the transcoding is a stage down the line. Hallucinogens warp the neuronal language by allowing the firing of neurons that are normally dampened (moderated) and dampening neurons that are normally fired. So what we have is both normal and warped functioning of neurons simultaneously, which is why the affects of hallucinogens meld with normal everyday experience.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:31 AM
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a reply to: elysiumfire

That makes a lot of sense and supports bedlams position..

I guess its similar in effect (probably not literally) as hypnogognic (sp) hallucinations whete the brains half asleep half awake and seeing its dreams mixed with the real environment around it.

Whats the mechanism and process behind that type of hallucination?



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:39 AM
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BASSPLYR :

...supports bedlams position.


Yes it does. Bedlam simply needs to clarify his position so that others cannot reinterpret what he is saying. However, the others are right to a degree, because even when we sleep, we are still conscious, but it is a lower level of consciousness, a more internalised (like the hallucinogenic experience) consciousness.

I would have preferred the study to have used the word 'hyper' rather than the word 'higher' state of consciousness, but we have to admit that sleep consciousness and wakeful consciousness are different levels of the same state.



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:46 AM
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BASSPLYR:

Whats the mechanism and process behind that type of hallucination?


I could hazard a guess, but I could be wrong. I would suspect that in the between state of sleep and wakefulness, the chemicals that dampen the motor circuits and the cortex are mixing with the chemicals for ordinary wakeful consciousness within the neurons?



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 10:53 AM
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a reply to: elysiumfire

I think the issue is there is already an abundance of research which provides clinical tests around the world with psychiatrists guiding patients in "altered" consciousness.

If they are able to access information, a healing method, or quantifiable mood improvement we are talking semantics here. It's hard to argue that a drug your given in sessions with a Dr guiding you through your psychosis, and the patient no longer needing treatment after ward in the form of psychotropic drugs they were taking, or barbiturates, that we aren't talking about higher conscious.

People can call me a paper tiger but at least I am not afraid to define consciousness.

Ps. The research this is built off is not from this single study.
These are all topics currently debated and researched. Including the neurology of consciousness.


edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: elysiumfire

That makes sense as a teen i had a few sleep paralysis experiences. No aliens. But i did see a gangbanger staring at me next to my bed. My best friend at the time was sleeping on the floor next to me and was like. Who are you talking to theres nobody there. I cpuld see my friend too so i knew it wasnt him standing over my bed.

Another time i woke up suddenly. Looked at the wall which was wavy and covered in green moss. Then i looked at the floor and it leapt up at me in a bout of vertigo.

The scariest was when i woke suddenly with sleep paralysis during a 5. Earthquake.

Each time my motor functions were just completly shut off except for my eyes. And i was indeed hallucinating.

Now i often get the wake up suddenly and see a giant shadow spider scurry away. If i stare at it for a few seconds it dissolves as my brain functions come back on line. A lot of people universally hallucinate shadow spiders in a very nearly identical manner. I wonder what wiring is responsible for that. Ancient fear of spiders? Id say it evolved into our psychi in a pavlovian sense except that spiders really are no legit danger to humans in a truly life threatening way. Ive been bitten a few times by black and the now more common and invasive to southern california brown widows. Got a scar on my left calf from a recluse that made it into my sleeping bag one camping trip. Basically if its not a funnel web or brazillian wandering spider spiders arent particularly dangerous. Why arent we seeing tigers and things that actually do hunt and kill humans instead.

Beats me.

Have you ever read a book called why god wont go away. They studied the brain activity of monks and religeous folk while meditating or experiencing rapture and satori. Turns out the part of the brain responsible for proprioception shuts off leading to sense of oneness with the universe since the brain cant determin where the body stops and the rest of the universe begins.
edit on 20-4-2017 by BASSPLYR because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 11:16 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit



When someone refers to a higher state of consciousness, one must be certain that what one means by that, is a state of consciousness where greater neurological resources than normal are available to the user in a useful fashion, not simply that there is more activity in general.


Agreed. You cant do better than an A+ in math, you can't finish a marathon higher than first place. There is a conscious or there is not, simple as that.

Yes their can be altered states of conscious, but not higher ones. Look at Stephen King, some of his best work came after he gave away the mirrors and razor blades, Under the Dome being a good example and it proves that altered states of mind i.e stoned out of your brain does not stifle creativity.

But one can't deny that some of the best artistic work was achieved by artists that were utterly wasted. I'm sure there is a link to altered consciousness and creativity, when Jimmy Hendrix clumsily blasts out the star spangled banner he enters godhood, but when i play the star wars theme on guitar after two beers i suck because all four listeners were too busy getting high and remembering how great Hendrix was at woodstock despite the fact they were never at woodstock and refuse to acknowledge how crap that song sounded.

But I digress...


edit on 20-4-2017 by Thecakeisalie because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-4-2017 by Thecakeisalie because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 11:17 AM
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originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: elysiumfire

That makes sense as a teen i had a few sleep paralysis experiences. No aliens. But i did see a gangbanger staring at me next to my bed. My best friend at the time was sleeping on the floor next to me and was like. Who are you talking to theres nobody there. I cpuld see my friend too so i knew it wasnt him standing over my bed.

Another time i woke up suddenly. Looked at the wall which was wavy and covered in green moss. Then i looked at the floor and it leapt up at me in a bout of vertigo.

The scariest was when i woke suddenly with sleep paralysis during a 5. Earthquake.

Each time my motor functions were just completly shut off except for my eyes. And i was indeed hallucinating.

Now i often get the wake up suddenly and see a giant shadow spider scurry away. If i stare at it for a few seconds it dissolves as my brain functions come back on line. A lot of people universally hallucinate shadow spiders in a very nearly identical manner. I wonder what wiring is responsible for that. Ancient fear of spiders? Id say it evolved into our psychi in a pavlovian sense except that spiders really are no legit danger to humans in a truly life threatening way. Ive been bitten a few times by black and the now more common and invasive to southern california brown widows. Got a scar on my left calf from a recluse that made it into my sleeping bag one camping trip. Basically if its not a funnel web or brazillian wandering spider spiders arent particularly dangerous. Why arent we seeing tigers and things that actually do hunt and kill humans instead.

Beats me.

Have you ever read a book called why god wont go away. They studied the brain activity of monks and religeous folk while meditating or experiencing rapture and satori. Turns out the part of the brain responsible for proprioception shuts off leading to sense of oneness with the universe since the brain cant determin where the body stops and the rest of the universe begins.


Prime examples of consciousness levels. At every point your the observer and this is your mind.

That is the base of consciousness. Whether your observing reality or not isnt the only interest in understanding the mind and in particular sensory type psychosis.

I think some of the issue is what people expect consciouness to be, and then don't realize the profound indications when it seems so simple.

Like the attitude oh its just an in between sleep and wakefulness state.

The problem is grasping the purpose of the different states of consciousness and how they effect the psyche as a whole. That is why this type of study is absolutely needed.

If you read the references there are literally over 50 other scientific works, as well as the funding from all the universities.

It's not for nothing.

edit on 20-4-2017 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
Normal 'baseline' consciousness correlates to a global neuronal net activity firing frequency of between 12 to 38 HZ designated Beta waves. When we tire and start to fall asleep, a number of neuronal areas in the cortex and deep inside the brain are dampened and reduce the global neuronal net activity firing down to 3 to 8 HZ .

Hallucinogens such as '___' are molecularly similar to the chemical serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter inside the neuron cell. It is especially found in the brain stem, and which from there connects to many regions of the brain. Because of its similarity to serotonin, '___' affects the serotonin in the neurons and interferes with the synaptic cleft.

(As an aside, what neurobiologists need to be deciphering is the language neurons use to communicate with each other. Energy levels and densities, firing frequencies and wavelengths, they just need a biological equivalence to the 'Rosetta Stone', so that they can understand how it all becomes our ordinary daily experience?)

Hallucinogens affect the firing rates and patterns of the neurons, but the hallucinogen perturbation does not affect the actual transcoding into experience, as the transcoding is a stage down the line. Hallucinogens warp the neuronal language by allowing the firing of neurons that are normally dampened (moderated) and dampening neurons that are normally fired. So what we have is both normal and warped functioning of neurons simultaneously, which is why the affects of hallucinogens meld with normal everyday experience.


Is consciousness only defined by the Beta Wave frequency a person happens to be in? Would this also mean that any random persons, if they each have the same frequencies at any given moment then they must have 'the same' level of consciousness?

Is there some documented data that psychedelics dont alter said frequencies? Do note there are hundreds of different active compounds (that we already know about). And (the one you types) is far from the most profound, etc.

Is there a frequency shift between REM dreaming and the other stages of sleep? Expecting there are, that's what happens when (the one our brains release when we dream) is released into an 'unconscious' brain. Now imagine what would happen if you gave a power dose to a fully 'conscious' brain.

That's all besides the point, I say. The 'its all about the frequencies' logic doesn't compute here: Since energy drinks can increase beta wave frequency, this would mean they provide "higher states of consciousness". They are nootropic (increase alertness, etc). But nootropics are completely different than psychedelics.

In this discussion by "higher states of consciousness" I refer to the enhanced states of perception, creativity, understanding, insight, and so on that come with all psychedelics.

Hardly a "meld with normal everyday experience":

This Brain Map Shows Why People On Shrooms See Sounds And Hear Colors
A new study finds that tripping on (illegal) magic mushrooms may change the mind by quieting traditional brain activity and jumpstarting new connections between areas of the brain that previously didn't communicate with one another.

Psilocybin, the main psychoactive ingredient in magic mushrooms, sprouts new links across previously disconnected brain regions, the study found, temporarily altering the brain's entire organizational framework.

The data visualization below (b) shows how these new connections among separate regions of the brain in people dosed with psilocybin; the one on the left (a) represents the conventional connections in the brains of people not on the drug. You can see how much more connected the trippers brains are:

rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org...
edit on 20-4-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 09:13 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: luthier

Oh my. Seriously.

Now you don't understand control references?


Sure I do. You don't understand that they're blatantly stating that PCI is related to "level of consciousness" here? But without any ability to prove that PCI is relevant in people being dosed with hallucinogens?

Their entire paper is based on this crappy assumption that hallucinogens = sort of an anti-propofol.

Do you even have the foggiest notion of what a control is? This certainly isn't relevant to a control reference in any way.

PCI *may* be relevant to normal mentation. It's the maguffin here. They're handwaving that it's applicable to measuring "higher than baseline consciousness levels". That's not at all proven.


PCI?


Faced with an unresponsive patient, clinicians do their best to determine whether the person is conscious. Through sound, touch, and other stimuli, they try to provoke verbal responses, slight finger movements, or just a shifting gaze. Yet some conscious patients simply can’t move or speak; an estimated 40 percent of those initially judged to be completely unaware are later found to have some level of consciousness.
...
That’s just what Massimini and his colleagues have tried to do with the perturbational complexity index (PCI), which they describe online today in Science Translational Medicine. PCI looks at the brain’s response to transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), where a magnetic coil is held up to the surface of the skull, generating a pulse to stimulate the neurons beneath and provoke a response that radiates through the brain.

Massimini and his colleagues record the brain’s “echo” with electroencephalography, a measure of electrical activity, and then turn that data into a numerical score between 0 and 1. Their calculations award higher scores to information-rich responses: those that are distributed across the brain, but also individualized. If two distant groups of neurons are active, but their activity is synchronized, the PCI equation compresses them, meaning they contribute less to the overall score. “The less we can compress the pattern, the more information is in it,” Massimini explains. www.wired.com...


Neato.

Okay sir, will you finally define what consciousness is, and describe for us what a "higher state of consciousness" would or would not be?

The way you're arguing from ignorance across this thread, its as if you're insisting that a higher state of consciousness from one person to the next isn't even possible.

If that be the case, and you think you've already reached the highest possible state: you haven't. And as long as you'd insist that viewpoint: you never will.
edit on 20-4-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 09:19 PM
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originally posted by: Talorc

Good video BTW, do you have any more like that?



www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 09:38 PM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

Show me how hallucinogens improve processing. I am still waiting. And so far all I've gotten is the rock music and 'you can't understand'.


Define "improve" in our context herein!

Note that we're not just talking about intelligence here, so 'improved intelligence processing' is the entirely wrong approach.

Perspective, now that's one that would apply here.

I showed you a study (pasted in again above) in this light and you decried it as "not objective".

Note they didn't use 'mere' PCI.
rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org...

And no, if you've never experienced at least one of them for yourself you simply have no perspective to even begin to take such hardliner positions like you're doing. Note I provided 3 separate examples that, well words couldn't possibly show you, but my examples were to put into perspective of how you just cant know. You're basically trying to understand the universe (outer space stuff) by looking at the night sky with a naked eye.
edit on 20-4-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2017 @ 09:46 PM
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originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: vinifalou

No one has ever said that taking mind altering drugs derived from plants, does nothing to the brain.

Doctors have known that this is the case for DECADES, longer even than that. But what has not been shown, even now, is that those effects are an improvement over what is considered the normal state of mind, only that these things create a DIFFERENCE in brain activity.


There are "mind altering drugs", and then there are "mind expanding drugs". All mind expanding drugs are mind altering drugs, but few exceptions outside of psychedelics are mind expanding drugs. Note, nootropics aren't "mind expanding". Neither is beer. Or the other stuff people get addicted to and all that.



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 01:22 AM
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originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: namelesss
...when the human genome became known to him, winning him said prize.


Actually, the prize was for discovering the molecular structure of DNA, quite a different thing.

Corrected, although the point remains valid.


It would be more a matter of looking at the x-ray crystallographic data and having an intuitive leap that you could get that pattern from a double helix structure.

I do think that it is that intuitive leap that is what we are talking about.
There are certain conditions supportive of such Zen/genius/intuitive leaps!


I'm actually partial to the opinion that hallucinogenics turn down the threshold on your pattern-matching functions sort of the way a schizophrenic's miswiring does. So you see 'connections' that may not be there, but occasionally you can see some you were ignoring. Among a lot of other less useful side effects.

I find that I can tentatively agree with you that entheogens inhibit our 'pattern matching function'.
By 'pattern matching function' (something any monkey can excel at), I am hearing the common mundane day to day 'Consciousness' of the average ape, uh.. person. All religious practices, such as 'incessant prayer/chanting, meditation, fasting, self flagellation, whatever... is all the average folk had to use to decrease the O2 and increase the CO2 in their brains (what the entheogens do Now!; entheogens were used, but mostly by mystics).
The 'brain' is primarily a 'reducing' apparatus, limiting input to the immediately 'pragmatic', the common day to day (primitive) 'pattern matching function'; only 'pre-programed patterns' matter. Too many 'new patterns' might well leave you teetering on the Abyss!
To inhibit that 'reducing valve' function might make you a bit less pragmatic, at the moment, but there is more input, perhaps, more context for that Zennish leap of intuition/Knowing that will cure the cancer (seems 'pragmatic' to me, ultimately...), or paint a Mona Lisa, or leave you Enlightened, in the transcendental state of unconditional Love!

We cannot ever perceive that which does not exist!
Everything exists! *__-






edit on 21-4-2017 by namelesss because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-4-2017 by namelesss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 02:25 AM
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a reply to: vinifalou

High on DRUGS so don't expect it to prove anything other than a msssive short circuit. Looking at some posts I think people are getting a little ahead of that this may actually mean .



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 04:38 AM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

I understand the difference between these things well enough, but to call them mind expanding may well be a terminological fallacy. There is no scientific evidence that the mind is expanded in terms of function, only that there is more activity. Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that the minds functionality has been expanded by these things, only that it has been changed by these things, and again, UNTIL proof positive comes about that the effect is expansive, rather than merely transformative, it will not be appropriate to use the term "mind expanding" when referring to these substances.



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 06:30 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

Like with Bedlam, from the first post of yours I read, and on across the thread, it all screams to me you have no personal experience with this. Check out my other posts to see how hopelessly asinine it is for you to speak with a sort of authoritative stance herein as such.

The title: "...higher states of consciousness", wouldn't the right kind(s) of "more activity", especially with the extremely profound nature of most psychedelics, wouldn't that be a 'higher state of consciousness'.

I dont get why you're jumping from the acute experience effects, to long lasting effects.
But that is part of the greater discussion I suppose...

Where are your studies that demonstrate that they do not enhance s), as you're talking about?

What would such a test even look like????

On that note, you really ought to read my other posts in the thread, beside that response I sent to you.

An IQ test wouldn't come close to settling the subject.

Here's a couple things I know for a fact, as does anyone with a decent amount of experience: Psychedelics enhance creativity, perspective, the ability make connections (in ters of perception), to name a few.

Is there a standardized test for any of those?

Check out the article with the fancy image I posted above, and the paper itself. See all those connections? What I've been arguing for years, since long before that paper came out, is that they enhance neuronal plasticity. Neuronal plasticity is important with stuff like like creativity (I believe), and stuff like how people grow increasingly hardwired as they age. Look at all the partisansnip, and how partisans (of any type/ideology/religion/etc) are hopelessly addicted to not being able to change their positions / beliefs / party affiliations / etc. And look what's its doing to the world. We face extinction this century because of Emerging Technologies, for starters, on this front that's about certainly the outcome to expect because of this 'hardwired' stuff.

Is there a standardized test for all that paragraph?

So lets see: creativity, open mindedness, perspective, insight, empathy, connectedness, etc all most possibly can be 'enhanced'. Is that not 'mind expansion'?

This idea that simple truths aren't real or worthy of consideration because 'square' scientists haven't figured out how to "prove" "it", in a world gone mad where even the one your brain produces that causes your dreams is a felony to possess (even though your brain produces it every single night), get out of town!



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 06:43 AM
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a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

With respect, an objective and unaffected observer would be more able to make accurate and factual assessments about the effects of substances such as those to which you refer, because his or her observations would be uncoloured by neurochemical inconsistencies caused by consumption of the substance concerned.

Its like faith. If you have it, then you are not in a position to comment on its legitimacy as a mode of thought, because you already bought into it and are unable therefore to maintain an objective position on the topic.

Figuring out ways to read the mind with technological means, in such a way as would prove the effect you are describing to actually exist in the way you describe it, will be necessary if you ever want to have your position verified as a matter of fact, rather than a matter of your own assumptions based on a subjective experience you had.



posted on Apr, 21 2017 @ 07:07 AM
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a reply to: TrueBrit

DUDE!

Science on consciousness isn't anywhere near being sorted out, hell, none of the mind / brain related sciences are. I guess that means in a sense that consciousness doesn't exist, and we shouldn't even bother talking about it?

I know, we can do brain scans now at 'observe' it in individuals. Let me know when scientists, er outside 'objective' observers can 'look at' people and know better than the subjects do how they think / feel / etc in any given instance.

I wont be holding my breath.

A better example would be Creativity. Since we can't exactly 'measure' it, hey its like faith if you believe its a 'real thing'.

While we're at it, the intense empathy that ravers get from their preferred chem, well we can't exactly wholeheartedly 'measure' empathy, so nope, if they say it makes them more empathetic (or any of its other primary/secondary/side effects) well they're just talking subjective jibberish. Right?? They should just shut about it until scientists get around to 'proving' it, which will be never since the stuff is super banned and an ridiculous ordeal to try to get properly legally for any would be studies.

Seriously, your approach to ending the discussion strikes me as being a total copout of the WTF variety. Like why did you even enter the arena if that's all your willing to entertain? Seriously, check out my other posts herein (button under my avatar panel), unless you're just here to be a pest about something which you clearly know about nothing about:
www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Note that I posted a serious science paper that explored the 'higher states of consciousness' sort of concept. And across this thread there are tons of examples / arguments / etc that makes the ignoramous naysayer viewpoint sound silly.

Therefore, if anyone has blind faith in here its the people who have no personal experience in the field yet are taking this strong stance that there's nothing to see here.

Who is better than anyone else at 'objectively' telling them how profound / etc an experience / etc was for a person? How could they even begin to do it? Of course, one experience isn't more profound than any other experience, because we dont have a way to measure it, and if you believe that with all of your experiences your whole life, that they were all each their own level of profound/meh, well that's means your not unlike a religious wacko with all the blind faith about what each of your experiences meant to you.
edit on 21-4-2017 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



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