NEWS: Former "Crips" Founder and Nobel Prize Nominee Cleared For Death Penalty

1. the justice system is flawed

2. no 2 gang in any neighborhood (even if they are of the same ilk, bloods, crips, etc..) are intertwined. think of it as a licensed franchise. these groups of individuals take on a moniker to pursue whatever intentions they have.

3. from all the attention and possible corruption from the trial, why hasn't this man gotten a retrial?


this man should be allowed a retrial and have all new evidence brought forward. heck, 2/3 of capital punishment cases are overturned when re-examined. why are they so scared to let this man live? a man who has found a calling from prison and who is focusing on trying to keep people out of prison?

god forbid that happened.

after he leaves his body he will have to account for what he has done. so if he has changed then the light shall take that into account.
love abydos

Originally posted by cantfoolme
do you honestly think it is right to kill this man? forget the law and look at just as one human to another.

No, I don't think it's right for the state to kill this, or any other, person. I'm firmly opposed to capital punishment, simply because the fundamental idea behind it is that killing a person is a completely unacceptable and unforgivable crime. If that is indeed the case (as I feel it is), then it remains so that killing a person is a completely unacceptable and unforgivable crime-- even, or some might argue, especially when the state does it.

However, my opinion on capital punishment, and even my (or anyone else's) opinion of Tookie Williams and his nominal reformation is entirely moot. That's the point I've been trying to make all along.

The law MUST apply to all people equally. That's my entire point. There are thousands of people who have already been executed for similar crimes, and there are thousands more sitting on death row right now. I'd bet anything anyone might desire that there are at least a few who have "reformed" at least to the degree that Williams have, if not with as much publicity. I feel that it's a horrible miscarriage of justice to spare this one man simply because he's become a cause celebre while condemning thousands of others, many of whom no doubt committed lesser crimes, and many of whom are no doubt at least as reformed as he is.

I would have it that none of them were executed, but if others are to be executed for similar crimes, and despite similar reformation, then it's patently unjust that he be spared and they not be.

Either all who have been charged, convicted and sentenced as he has should be executed, or none of them should. To pick and choose and say, officially, that this person deserves to live while that person does not is not only unjust and arguably evil, but a terrifying power to grant to any state.

Bob
If you want the justice system to treat everyone equally, then you really ought to be fighting to free the man, not kill him.

Rich murderers go free. Poor murderers die.

The death penalty must indeed apply to everyone, or not. Since this country is bursting at the seams with corporate criminals who are responsible for millions of injuries and death, and NOT ONE of them has ever been put to death, can we please stop scapegoating those criminals living below the poverty line?

Spliff
I don't think you understand the situation fully. First, his guilt is disputed, though you seem sure of it without knowing anything about the case (which, in and of itself, should be a sign to observers just how the system gets away with all it does). Second, our justice system is slow and ponderous because it's tasked with the execution of accused criminals, and they have to be given every oppurtunity to prove their innocence.

I'm sure you'd love to see criminals taken out back and shot, after one trial. I'm also sure you'd want a chance to prove your innocence if you were falsely accused. If you want it for yourself, and not for others, what does that say about you, and your opinion?

People are eager to find easy outlets for their anger. Minorities have traditionally filled that role.

I don't think it's at all out of line to suggest that until justice works equally across lines of race and class, it should not be supported in its persecution of the poor.

Bottom line -

He's guilty. He was found guilty in a court of law.

TV news reports that while in prison he delighted
to recount how the incident sounded as the people
he murdered died.

This isn't a race thing. It's a murder thing.

WHY does he still go by his gang name if he has
forsaken all gang violence??

The families of his victims (remember them??) do
not wish his sentence commuted to life.

Hollywood has called this murderer a 'treasure'.
They should talk to the relatives of the people
he murdered and feel the pain that this 'treasure' created.

I am against the death penalty, but folks, you can't say
it's a black thing, or it's a poor thing, or that he's an
innocent man behind bars. He's guilty. He has only
himself to blame for where he is.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Bob
If you want the justice system to treat everyone equally, then you really ought to be fighting to free the man, not kill him.

Rich murderers go free. Poor murderers die.

The death penalty must indeed apply to everyone, or not. Since this country is bursting at the seams with corporate criminals who are responsible for millions of injuries and death, and NOT ONE of them has ever been put to death, can we please stop scapegoating those criminals living below the poverty line?

*sigh*

Yes, the wealthy and politically connected in this (or any other) nation are rarely, if ever, punished as they should be for the crimes they commit. There's no debating that.

I still will not fight to free this man, and will continue to fight against those who, their reason subverted to their emotions, do.

The law should be equally applied-- not equally ignored. Your logic is that if one man can kill with impunity, then all should be able to kill with impunity. You've got it backwards. The proper solution is to fight NOT to save Williams from the consequences of his actions, but to force the political/economic elite to face the consequences of theirs.


I've been aware of this apparent flaw in my point all along, and am honestly sort of surprised that it took this long for someone to mention it. Yes-- the law is already applied unequally. However, the solution is not to expand the rolls of those to whom it is NOT applied-- that just breaks the system down even further.

And to be perfectly honest-- as a cynical minarchist, I have no particular issue with the system breaking down. Or more accurately, I recognize that it absolutely and inevitably will, and I believe that sooner is better. Maybe I should just sit back and watch as people make bad decisions for purely visceral reasons and hasten the coming collapse, but I just can't quite do that. Illogic stands out to me like a spot on a tablecloth, and I just can't help but pick at it...

I have no particular problem with Williams' sentence being commuted, at least so long as it's accomplished by existing legal means. I have no desire to see this or any other person put to death. I simply can't sit back and watch flatly illogical arguments presented in an attempt to secure his commutation.

Of course there's some issue as to his guilt-- that's why guilt is determined by a jury rather than an individual, and why they are charged to do so "beyond a reasonable doubt." Twelve people, so charged, found him guilty. That still doesn't mean that he certainly is-- only that, within human limitations, he has been found to be. That's the best we, or any society, can do. He HAS had appeals, so he's had opportunities to demonstrate that the original judgment was in error, but he has failed to do so. He is now to be executed. That's the way the system works. Is the system flawless? Certainly not. People, even if they're not corrupt, are still flawed, and no system designed by people, even if scrupulously fair (which ours is not), could ever be perfect. However, if he did indeed kill these people, as it appears he at least probably did, and of which, more importantly, he has already been found guilty, then he really should face the consequences of that act. Has he suffered remorse and potentially reformed? I have no reason to doubt it, although virtually every criminal in virtually every prison will tell you that he too has suffered remorse and has reformed, and that he isn't guilty to begin with anyway, so there's no particular reason to believe it either.

The bottom line is simply that it's grossly illogical to state that the system is flawed, and should therefore be subverted. It's flawed insofar as it already can be and is subverted. The entire purpose of a legal system is to attempt to impose order on chaos, and if the system in question is to ever work, it must be actually applied. If it works poorly, then it needs to be improved, but arguing that, since it works poorly, it should be ignored is to, in the extremely old cliche, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And honestly, I really don't care, on a personal level, if the baby is thrown out with the bathwater. My sense of logic simply won't allow me to sit idly by and watch as people apply spurious logic in order to make believe that that's NOT what they're doing.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Bob
If you want the justice system to treat everyone equally, then you really ought to be fighting to free the man, not kill him.



Spliff
I don't think you understand the situation fully. First, his guilt is disputed, though you seem sure of it without knowing anything about the case (which, in and of itself, should be a sign to observers just how the system gets away with all it does). Second, our justice system is slow and ponderous because it's tasked with the execution of accused criminals, and they have to be given every oppurtunity to prove their innocence.

I'm sure you'd love to see criminals taken out back and shot, after one trial. I'm also sure you'd want a chance to prove your innocence if you were falsely accused. If you want it for yourself, and not for others, what does that say about you, and your opinion?

Wrong...I do know about the case. And yes...ok...give em appeals. But guess what? Every other guy in prison thinks HIS guilt is disputed as well. Its bull#. The only reason this guy has ANY supporters is because he's black, and as THEY say "we gotta stick together". It doesnt matter right or wrong to them, its black or white. Hard to hear, but its true.

Instead of worrying about HIM, why not worry about the 4 dead people. Hell, they're dead. Worry about their kids, and spouses. Nope. Nothing for them. Just "sympathy" for this douche bag who executed them, and BRAGGED about it fo the last 20 years or so.

I could care less if he's "reformed" Is he going to "reform" the lives he took? Hes a murderer and a criminal. He made his choices, now he MUST live by them. Simple as that.

I think people should quit supporting every black man whos in jail. Open your eyes. Is it racism that put them there, or are they there because, oh I dont know, they COMMITED THE CRIME?

If the stats say that 7 out of 10 black men will wind up in prison, is it because 7 out of 10 of them commit the crime, or is it because a group of old, evil white men, plotted to put them there? Hmm.... Captain Obvious to the rescue....



[edit on 3-12-2005 by spliff4020]

Spliff

The only reason this guy has ANY supporters is because he's black, and as THEY say "we gotta stick together".

What an unlovable racist you are spliff. No matter how many times people try to steer you towards civilized discussion you can't stop yourself from resorting to emotional outbursts and tired stereotypes.

Tookie's supporters are not all black. In fact, a great deal of them are white.

It doesnt matter right or wrong to them, its black or white. Hard to hear, but its true.

There're folks like that on both sides of the racial hatred issue. You REALLY think all black people support black murderers? You REALLY think all of Tookie's supporters are on his side simply because he's black?

Instead of worrying about HIM, why not worry about the 4 dead people.

Great idea Spliff, let's worry more about dead folks than the living ones. Are you a Christian by chance?

Hell, they're dead.

Yeah dude, they're dead. Killing Tookie won't bring them back. Leaving him alive might prevent the same thing from happening in the future.

If he has an effect on one kid, that would be a positive result. If he dies, nothing is solved, no lives are saved. You've just passed the grudge over to the other side. That doesn't make any sense.

Worry about their kids, and spouses. Nope. Nothing for them. Just "sympathy" for this douche bag who executed them, and BRAGGED about it fo the last 20 years or so.

I sympathize with the families of the victims as well, but since they're not scheduled to be murdered by the government that demands my support, Tookie has priority in this discusion.

If the families of the victims were scheduled to be murdered, they'd be on my mind a lot more. They're not though. They have their freedom, they have their lives. They can't gain anything by seeing Tookie die. Society CAN gain something by keeping him alive.

I think people should quit supporting every black man whos in jail. Open your eyes. Is it racism that put them there, or are they there because, oh I dont know, they COMMITED THE CRIME?

If black men in jail had any support at all in this country, there wouldn't be nearly so many of them in there in the first place.

If the stats say that 7 out of 10 black men will wind up in prison, is it because 7 out of 10 of them commit the crime, or is it because a group of old, evil white men, plotted to put them there? Hmm.... Captain Obvious to the rescue....

Did a black fella beat you up or steal your woman or something? Damn man...Capt. Obvious should quit while he's ahead.

What an unlovable racist you are spliff. No matter how many times people try to steer you towards civilized discussion you can't stop yourself from resorting to emotional outbursts and tired stereotypes.

Again, WRONG. Is it only racism when someone calls them out on their BS? If so, then yes, I'm racist.

Tookie's supporters are not all black. In fact, a great deal of them are white.

Like who?

There're folks like that on both sides of the racial hatred issue. You REALLY think all black people support black murderers? You REALLY think all of Tookie's supporters are on his side simply because he's black?

Nope, but I DO think that all blacks will stand behind their "brothers" no matter what. And yes, I do think that they are behind him because he is black, or has Snoop now become politcal. I know that this hard to swallow, because of the brain-washing that has been endured. What was once "resisting arrest" has now become "police brutality".

Great idea Spliff, let's worry more about dead folks than the living ones. Are you a Christian by chance?

Catholic...not that, that has anything to do with this. In the bible it does say "eye for an eye".

Yeah dude, they're dead. Killing Tookie won't bring them back. Leaving him alive might prevent the same thing from happening in the future.

Really? How so?

If he has an effect on one kid, that would be a positive result. If he dies, nothing is solved, no lives are saved. You've just passed the grudge over to the other side. That doesn't make any sense.

lolololol..... Ya, some 7 year old is out there thinkin, "man, I wanna cap some fools, but Tookie says it aint cool". Take "tookie" out and make an example of him. More good that way. Fear breeds respect. The black race doesnt know fear. They know how to manipulate the system to their benefit.

I sympathize with the families of the victims as well, but since they're not scheduled to be murdered by the government that demands my support, Tookie has priority in this discusion.

You're right. They were scheduled to die by tookie, cuz he needed some money. Their family was executed by him as well. Just not with the bullets. Just by mom not being there for any more christmases, or dads paycheck to pay the bills. How much of Tookies book money goes to them? Tookie has NO priority.

If the families of the victims were scheduled to be murdered, they'd be on my mind a lot more. They're not though. They have their freedom, they have their lives. They can't gain anything by seeing Tookie die. Society CAN gain something by keeping him alive.

Quite possibly the most cowardice statement Ive heard in a long time. They have their freedom? To do what? Put flowers on moms grave? I know that I would gain a great deal from seeing the guy who SHOT MY MOTHER TO DEATH, killed. Maybe not you. Perhaps they should meet him in prison and shake his hand. Thank him for the "freedom" he gave them.

If black men in jail had any support at all in this country, there wouldn't be nearly so many of them in there in the first place.

Bull. Its because they are they welfare state that they are there. The concept of working and EARNING the things you have is foreign to them. Its all "gimme gimme gimme" and if you dont "gimme" they "takie". Again, the simple truth is that it was THEM who put THEMSELVES in there.

Did a black fella beat you up or steal your woman or something? Damn man...Capt. Obvious should quit while he's ahead.

Again, pathetic. Your obviously naive when it comes to this. I live 1 mile outside of Gary Indiana. It was the murder capital for 3 years straight. It has the HIGHEST crime rate in the entire state and it is all black. Facts are facts, but in todays politically correct society, we arent suppose to say that.

We're suppose to find blame any and everywhere else except right where it needs to be. On the individual. White people who sit there and make excuses for them are no better. But when they get together and rally around every piece of walking human excrement, based soley on the color of their skin, its down right sickening. Only fools fall for that crap.

Could this be a way to remove gangs?

Before jumping to conclusions hear me out. Recently there has been talk of letting the military help out in emergency situations. (Giving the military more power). From what I have been reading lately it seems that a riot is EXPECTED to break out after he is executed.

Now we have a situation that will convince the people to let the government get involved. In an emergency hearing the military will be given the power of law enforcement.

The gangs will be brought down, but at what cost... We will have given the government policing policy over the people. I know this may sound silly, but think about it. This is a situation that may be more dire then we tend to think.

_____________________________________________________________
Be Cool
K_OS

Originally posted by spliff4020

Tookie's supporters are not all black. In fact, a great deal of them are white.

Like who?

Hollywierd. Those ultra-rich, hyper reality movie actors who want
publicity at any cost and so they can get their movie tickets sold.
Betchya' none of them have bothered to ask the families of the
victims what they think should be done.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
All the celebrities coming forward for this man's life reminds me of Jack Henry Abbot who was released from prison based largely on the recommedation of Norman Mailer who had a lengthy correspondence with the murderer while he was working on a book about Gary Gilmore.

Isn't this the same guy who ended up back in prison, because he stabbed a busboy to death behind a restaurant. (The busboy was taking out the trash, and startled Abbot, who was "relieving himself" next to the dumpster.)

[edit on 7-12-2005 by Toelint]

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Bob
If you want the justice system to treat everyone equally, then you really ought to be fighting to free the man, not kill him.

Rich murderers go free. Poor murderers die.

The death penalty must indeed apply to everyone, or not. Since this country is bursting at the seams with corporate criminals who are responsible for millions of injuries and death, and NOT ONE of them has ever been put to death, can we please stop scapegoating those criminals living below the poverty line?

I couldn't agree more, except for one thing. I'm sure if a Ford, or a Hilton, or a Forbes or a Kennedy went on a shotgun shooting spree, they'd get very little sympathy, if any. You're arguing in symantics, blaming industry-related deaths on the white collars. Well, go ahead...everyone else does. (And rumour has it that heads will literally roll for that Benzene spill in China.)

For Tookie's first robbery-murder, he netted a whole whopping $120.00. This is the story about a guy killing because he needed chump change, and knew that's all he would get, robbing a Stop-N-Go, and a flea-bag Motel.

Yes, kill him.



[edit on 7-12-2005 by Toelint]

"Tookie" killed four people, period. He should be put to death.

-- Boat