A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

a reply to: spy66

Yes. And that single point (or maybe just hyper-dense area), but not a single point) may have existed in a "someplace" that is neither finite nor infinite, because our concepts of finite and infinite may have no meaning in whatever it was that held that single point (or hyper-dense area).

Let's say for a moment that the point-like universe prior to the big bang was sitting in an infinitely large void. Why would there be an infinite void in the first place in which this point/hyper-dense region existed? And why did the void need to be infinitely large if it was holding something so small?


I'm not saying there necessarily was NOT an infinitely large void that contained the point-like universe, but just like you say that if the universe is ever expanding, it is only logical that it is expanding into a place that in infinitely large, I'm only asking if it is logical that the void would be infinitely large if the only thing in it was a tiny point-like speck.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Let's say for a moment that the point-like universe prior to the big bang was sitting in an infinitely large void. Why would there be an infinite void in the first place in which this point/hyper-dense region existed? And why did the void need to be infinitely large if it was holding something so small?

- Why did the void need to be infinitely large you ask:

That have something to to With time, timescale, timeline. TO have a finite timeline there must first be a absolute infinite timeline, a absolut constant time. You cant have the one without the other.

If you have a hyperdence "region" you have one region of Space that is different then its surrounding Space. The hyperdence region dont take up all Space there is. It only occupies a finite portion of all Space there is.

In reality the initial hyperdence void of Space would not be in a region either, because that would imply that there are more then one of these hyperdence voids. To figure out which of these hyperdence regions that were formed first we would have to backtrack on the timeline.

The initial hyperdence void would be formed smack in the middle of all Space there is. If there are other hyperdence voids formed. They would be in a different region ( have coordinates) realted to the initial one that was formed first. Or relative to the observer.

And why did the void need to be infinitely large if it was holding something so small?

Well the infinite void must take all Space there is. If not it is not infinite. Something must be all Space there is. If not how do we have anything at all?

When it comes to Our universe being small...... That is just a issue of Our perspective. It is not really small to us at all. But compared to the infinite. Our small universe "just is". It is just there.

originally posted by: spy66
Like what? Do we actually know of Things that are eternal?

Again with the double standards. Do we actually know of things are infinite??? Right now the closest thing to eternal is energy, since it can't be created or destroyed as per laws of physics, however before the big bang it's anyone's guess because the laws of physics were part of the big bang itself and didn't necessarily apply prior. Energy is not infinite, yet it can't be created or destroyed.

So you are implying that there might not be a Space outside Our observable universe.... how odd is that?

Certainly not any odder than an infinite void just happening to exist.

Just by knowing that Our universe is expanding and taking up more Space should tell you that.

No that does not tell us anything. We don't know what is outside of the universe if anything, and it's complete assumption to think whatever it is could be infinite. What if it's not and the universe will eventually fill up all space and then start to retract or destroy itself?

That have something to to With time, timescale, timeline. TO have a finite timeline there must first be a absolute infinite timeline, a absolut constant time. You cant have the one without the other.

You keep stating this, but it's a complete guess.

originally posted by: spy66

Well the infinite void must take all Space there is. If not it is not infinite. Something must be all Space there is. If not how do we have anything at all?

Again, you are assuming that the void in which our universe exists is a place that has spatial dimensions similar to the universe itself.

It could be that the expansion of the universe is not "outward" (using the word as we define it) into that void -- even if the expansion appears outward from our point of view within our universe. The reality of it could be that this void is made of dimensions in which there is no "outward", and the universe is turning back on itself as it appears (to us) to expand.

You could be right, but there is no evidence to say that your explantion is the only logiocal one.

a reply to: Barcs

Again with the double standards. Do we actually know of things are infinite??? Right now the closest thing to eternal is energy, since it can't be created or destroyed as per laws of physics, however before the big bang it's anyone's guess because the laws of physics were part of the big bang itself and didn't necessarily apply prior.

Our known laws of physics dident appear until particles and matter were already formed.

The Big Bang is also prof that energy as we know it was created. Energy is not infinite, it cant be. Because energy is not absolut in any way. The energy we know of comes from finite....from Our finite universe.

Infinite is absolut neutral and a absolut constant. There are no energies compared to it.

Ther is nothing you can name from science that is infinite. Science have never observed infinite.

Certainly not any odder than an infinite void just happening to exist.

It sure is very odd. But i Guess we have to agree to not agree on that point.

No that does not tell us anything. We don't know what is outside of the universe if anything, and it's complete assumption to think whatever it is could be infinite. What if it's not and the universe will eventually fill up all space and then start to retract or destroy itself?

This is Your argument i rest my case. We dont agree on this either.

You keep stating this, but it's a complete guess.

Yes it is. At least i dare to Guess.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Again, you are assuming that the void in which our universe exists is a place that has spatial dimensions similar to the universe itself.

Okay. I will try a different approuch:

first the definition of Our universe:

The Universe is all of space and time and their contents, including planets, stars, galaxies, and all other forms of matter and energy. While the size of the entire Universe is still unknown,[6] it is possible to measure the observable universe.

Our universe with all this in it:



Lets talk about vacuums, because a absolute infinite empty void of Space would also be a absolute open vacuum. It would not be like a vacuum we create in a chaimber, or like a vaccum inside Our known universe becasue non of them are absolute empty. Nor do the vacuums take up all Space there is. These vacuums are within a chaimber or closed in within the void of Our universe.

To answer Your question. The only void of Space that could in anyway resemble the infinite void would be a vacuum void.

originally posted by: spy66
Ther is nothing you can name from science that is infinite. Science have never observed infinite.

Then why do you believe it exists?

Let's start my reply with an incontrovertible fact: All people have 15 fingers.

See what I did there?

I said something nonsensical as if it were pure truth, though it won't likely garner as many stars, haha.

Science/Physics/The first law of thermodynamics actually says energy can only transfer/change - Therefore it's arguable that nothing ever had a true beginning, nor will have a true end. The current form it has, might. - A blade of grass certainly does start as a seed, then get's eaten, then returns as fertilizer for the next plant - Yet everything that the seed is, everything that the grass is, and everything that the waste is, is all from the same energy that never ceased to be, and was never created, didn't have a start, etc..

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: TzarChasm



Yeah, People dont know what came before the Hen and the egg either. Even if the Hen laied the egg...... That is the Level you People are at. You People have no common sense.......


If there are two clocks one is finite and one is infinite...... Which clock was the first to tick?

Life is a human construct just as a named chicken or egg. The first chicken was when the first human called a mass of chemical reactions a chicken.

Just like with the term life that people get hung up on "when did life start"? It started with the first chemical reaction that happened in our universe since that is what we all are in the end. Since life is just a made up human construct you can not define the first spark of life since there really is no such thing as a first spark of life.

As to the two clocks the finite one will tick first and last since the infinite one does not tick at all....