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A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

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posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: SeekAnswers
When multiverse is mentioned, does that mean other universes similar to this one or copies of this one like on tv shows?
I think there are probably other universes besides this, but not ones that have the same people living another life.
And simple math shows us infinity exists, numbers never stop. Space outside the universe goes on forever. There will always be another side to a barrier.


I think that you are mixing up the Multiverse theory with the Many Worlds theory. Many Worlds is the one that is based on there being an incredible LARGE (or some say "infinite") versions of our universe where every single choice or possibility is happening simultaneously and every new choice creates a new one. Multiverse is about there being multiple different physical universes in a giant system of them.

Nobody actually knows if "space" goes on forever, or even it even exists outside of our universe. We don't know if it's a barrier or not, as no barrier has ever been observed.




posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 11:25 AM
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originally posted by: SeekAnswers
When multiverse is mentioned, does that mean other universes similar to this one or copies of this one like on tv shows?
I think there are probably other universes besides this, but not ones that have the same people living another life.

To add to what Barcs said above, other universes that may exist within the hypothetical multiverse might be places that formed so differently than ours that the laws of physics manifested themselves in different ways.

Perhaps there is another universe in the multiverse in which the subatomic particles that make up the matter and energy in our universe (e.g., quarks, photons, etc) could not form, and what that universe has instead are some other weirds particles that create stuff that is so unlike our matter and energy that we can't really even call it matter and energy.

A hypothetical universe like that would have a space-time fabric (even if time existed in that universe) that is s unlike ours that we could possibly never visit there (because our matter could not exist under the physical properties of that universe), nor even be able to grasp what "there" even is.



And simple math shows us infinity exists, numbers never stop. Space outside the universe goes on forever. There will always be another side to a barrier.

Maybe our universe (or a hypothetical multiverse) is in fact infinite -- or not, but the fact that numbers are infinite is not a good reason to claim that the universe is infinite. Infinite numbers are a mental concept; the universe is a tangible physical object. Mental concepts exist only in thought and don't need physically tangible place to exist; objects do need a place to exist.

By the way, infinite numbers is still just a concept. What I mean is you can say "think of the largest number and I can make it larger by adding 1 to it" -- and that concept is true. However, can your brain actually imagine the set of infinite numbers -- the actual numbers themselves, not the concept of just adding 1 to get a larger number? The answer is no.


Someone mentioned a fractal Mandelbrot Set in an earlier post. It is true that the Mandelbrot Set in concept is infinite. However, show me an actual representation of Mandelbrot Set that is infinite. One could argue that given infinite time, the Mandelbrot Set would run infinitely. However, that requires time, and it requires that time to be infinite.

Time is possibly a pyproduct of our universe, and not vice-verse (i.e., NOT an outside eternal force that drives the workings of the universe), and was possibly only created by the inner-workings of our universe. If that is the case, as the fabric of space-time expands, it could eventaully rip itself apart in a way that time itself no longer exists.

...and that Mandelbrot set would stop.


edit on 5/3/2018 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: Barcs





Again, there is no evidence that anything is infinite either.


So you agree that there are no multiverses. And you also state that; infinite dont exist as well....since you state that there are no evidence that anything is infinite...... Are you sure???

How would you argue that nothing is infinite Barcs? I know you cant prove it, but how would you argue Your claime so that your claime would make sense and have merits? You state that nothing is infinite, you must have a very good argument to have that kind of knowledge......

You dont have that kind of knowledge Barcs. There are more logical reasons to reason the existance of infinite i assure you. You know it exists but you cant define it.....because as i have stated before, Your knwoledge is only Limited to Our observable universe. You cant use Our observable universe to argue infinite. Because Our observable universe is not infinite. That is also why you made the claim i quoted from you abowe.





edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 11:57 AM
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a reply to: spy66


I think you are confused about what people mean when they say the phrase:

"There is no evidence for _____ ."

When people say there is no evidence for something (let's call that something "X"), they simply mean that the evidence does not necessarily support that "X" is in fact real. However, that does not mean they are saying that "X" is not possibly true.

There could could be no evidence for something, but that something could still be possible. There was once no evidence that other galaxies existed, but Edwin Hubble later discovered that they do. There is no good evidence that the universe is made of sub-atomic stings (String Theory), but that does not mean that String Theory is not possibly true.

There is no good evidence that says that the universe is infinite; however, that's not the same as saying that it can't possibly be infinite.

There is no good evidence that a multiverse exists; however, that's not the same as saying that it is impossible for there to be a multiverse.


People can have beliefs and opinions about something in the absence of good evidence (even strong beliefs and opinions, sometimes based on limited/incomplete evidence), but only a closed mind would treat the absence of evidence as a 100% definitive evidence of absence.



edit on 5/3/2018 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


I understand what you are trying to say. But you know that these People are asking for facts and evidence to have their claim's challanged....right. They are asking for evidence and facts to a claim they them selves are puting forth that are not backed up by any evidence or facts themselves..... I dont know if you see the problem?


There are no evidence or facts that support the existance of any mulitverses.... It's a fictional claim... But still these People who claim this are asking for evidence and facts when they are being challenged about their fiction.....


Sure there could be other universes...... I dont know, because there are no indications from Our observable information that there are.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: spy66


I think the issue here is that the language you have been using in some of your posts makes it sound as if you are saying that the infinite universe is a "fact" and that all ideas that say otherwise are automatically wrong.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People



Then they cant read. Because i have not stated that Our universe is infinite.....never have..... Our universe is not infinite but there is a void of Space that is,.... that is what i have been trying to say. Space and Our universe are are two different Things when it comes to finite and infinite.


There is a void of Space that is infinite and there is a void of Space that is finite. These two voids of space would have totally different physical Properties. They cant both be infinite......one must be finite.....


edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 12:56 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
So you agree that there are no multiverses. And you also state that; infinite dont exist as well....since you state that there are no evidence that anything is infinite...... Are you sure???


No offense, but is English your second language or something? I've explained this 3 or 4 times now and you simply are not understanding my words. I said there is no evidence, not that either idea is absolutely wrong. I clarified this twice now.


How would you argue that nothing is infinite Barcs? I know you cant prove it, but how would you argue Your claime so that your claime would make sense and have merits? You state that nothing is infinite, you must have a very good argument to have that kind of knowledge.....


I didn't make any claims about any of that. Stop putting words in my mouth. You are the one making absolute claims that you can't back up. I said MANY TIMES now that they are POSSIBILITIES.



I understand what you are trying to say. But you know that these People are asking for facts and evidence to have their claim's challanged....right. They are asking for evidence and facts to a claim they them selves are puting forth that are not backed up by any evidence or facts themselves..... I dont know if you see the problem?


I have not once asked for facts or evidence to support infinity. All I said is that it is currently unknown and not even possible to know, but you keep repeating that you KNOW it exists. That's the issue. You should be saying, "I believe infinite exists".


Our universe is not infinite but there is a void of Space that is,


And again, this lacks evidence. You are stating this as fact when you do not know this. You are rejecting the idea of multiverses because there is no evidence, yet blindly believe this as fact with no evidence. It is a double standard of logic and if you don't see that, then you really need to learn the English language so you don't keep using the wrong terms. KNOW means you have knowledge.
edit on 3 5 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: Barcs



Okay.... does this mean that we are on the same terms then? Does this mean we understand each other?


Just to clarify....English is my second Language. I am from a non English speaking society. I am from Norway.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Barcs



Okay.... does this mean that we are on the same terms then? Does this mean we understand each other?


Just to clarify....English is my second Language. I am from a non English speaking society. I am from Norway.



Well that probably explains it then. KNOW means that you have knowledge on something. You said you KNOW the infinite exists when nobody actually knows this. The reason I am arguing with you is because you are claiming knowledge and using double standards in your logic by saying that multiverses are wrong, yet an infinite void is right. Both are possible explanations, but neither is KNOWN. I hope this makes sense to you.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 01:26 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People



Then they cant read. Because i have not stated that Our universe is infinite.....never have..... Our universe is not infinite but there is a void of Space that is,.... that is what i have been trying to say. Space and Our universe are are two different Things when it comes to finite and infinite.


There is a void of Space that is infinite and there is a void of Space that is finite. These two voids of space would have totally different physical Properties. They cant both be infinite......one must be finite.....



Well, not to beat that horse, but it still sounds as if you are saying it is a fact that there is an infinite void in which our universe exists.

It may be true that the universe exists in an infinite void, but there is no good evidence by which you could say it is a fact. Other possibilities exist.

Our universe (the fabric of our space-time) might exist in something that is an infinite void, as you propose -- or maybe it exists in a type of "space" that itself exists in other dimensions outside of our own space-time, and the idea of "finite or infinite" may have no meaning in that dimension -- or at least not have the same meaning we assign to the concept.

Again, considering the lack of any good evidence one way or the other concerning an infinite universe, infinite voids, and multiverses, I don't understand how you can be so closed-minded to other possibilities and only consider your own beliefs (which have no good evidence corroborating them) to be the only possible answer.



edit on 5/3/2018 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 01:56 PM
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a reply to: Soylent Green Is People





but it still sounds as if you are saying it is a fact that there is an infinite void in which our universe exists.


Yes. How would you argue it any differntly?

- By definition there is a differance between finite and infinite. Finite is not infinite..... so what is finite, and what is infinite.... what is the relation here? Do the two have anything in common?

If they dont have anything in common how can Our universe and infinite be ralated? How can they share the same Properties if they are different...?






edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 02:33 PM
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a reply to: spy66

There is no evidence that they do not. Again until you know what you are testing for, you can't really discount it. I return to gravitational waves (and ultimately gravitons) or perchance the Higgs Boson. There was no proof of those either, untill there were. In the case of Gravitational waves it took the ability to detect very fine changes in the universe.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that the Multiverses MUST exist. I've no skin in that game, I'm a chemist, no a Physicist. However you still can't discount the idea if there is some level of hypothesis that points towards it.

What are "you people"? Go on. You best not say I am an atheist. I'm at least as deeply religious as most of the creationist crowd. My faith just happens to not be scared of science. An fhirinne in aghaidh an tsaoil and all that jazz.

So why did I not ask for facts? I replied to you first, and you had a dirty liver. I know the hypotheses involved being a professional scientist, I may not specialize in that stuff, I do know some quantum theory however (yes its in Chemistry too bub). I've read the papers, and followed along with quite a bit of it. Have you? OR do you need your pastor to tell you the pop up book version? OR perhaps "God forbade it?"



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: Noinden





There is no evidence that they do not.


Correct, but they dont have any evidence that their claime bears any merits either. But i gues we both knew that right


I am not sayning multiveres dont exist. It is just that there are no observable evidence they do exist. Its a fictional claim... That is my point to you.




However you still can't discount the idea if there is some level of hypothesis that points towards it.


All i can say is that i dont know. There are no evidence........ to make such claimes. I will digress when the observation is made.





What are "you people"? Go on. You best not say I am an atheist.


I have not really labeled you as anything. All i indicated is that Your team is on very thin ice.... supporting claimes that are not backed up by any observable evidence or facts.




My faith just happens to not be scared of science. An fhirinne in aghaidh an tsaoil and all that jazz.


A good thing if you ask me.....





So why did I not ask for facts? I replied to you first, and you had a dirty liver. I know the hypotheses involved being a professional scientist, I may not specialize in that stuff, I do know some quantum theory however (yes its in Chemistry too bub). I've read the papers, and followed along with quite a bit of it. Have you? OR do you need your pastor to tell you the pop up book version? OR perhaps "God forbade it?"


You did. And i answered accordingly...... Since there are no evidence or facts that multiverses exist i dont really have to prove that they don't exist. The evidence and facts speak for themselves. There are no evidence or facts to Counter argue.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 03:45 PM
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a reply to: spy66

You don't seem to understaand that if it is a scientific hypothesis. Then you can't discount it, until such time as the evidence does. thanks to Quantum mechanics, String theory etc, it requires a lot more effort to detect these things.

I again am awaiting what "you people" is.



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 04:04 PM
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a reply to: Noinden





You don't seem to understaand that if it is a scientific hypothesis. Then you can't discount it, until such time as the evidence does.


I can actually think what i like With such a hypothesis. Just like People do when it comes to the claim that infinite dont exist or God for that matter. As long as there are no evidence or facts we can have Our personal thoughts and opinons about the hypothesis.... You did...



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 04:16 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People



but it still sounds as if you are saying it is a fact that there is an infinite void in which our universe exists.


Yes. How would you argue it any differntly?


By saying that we don't know. You keep stating this infinite void as fact, when it's not. It's just your opinion based on NO evidence, just like somebody else's opinion of the multiverse. Nobody really KNOWS the answer to any of that. There are mathematical theories on many of them, but nothing empirical. You seem to think we are arguing based on extremes and absolutes, when the only person doing that is you. I accept infinite void as a possibility, just like I accept multiverse as a possibility. I don't claim to know if either one is true or false, and you shouldn't either. For all you know there could be a HUGE void, but not an infinite one. There is no way to determine such a thing. That's all I'm trying to say.

edit on 3 5 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: Barcs





By saying that we don't know. You keep stating this infinite void as fact, when it's not.


Well i dont agree because finite and infnite must have different Properties, they can not have the same Properties and still be different. And that must be a fact per defintion. Finite cant be infinite.

Then my question to you is: What is finite and what is infinite? Do any of them exist?




edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Barcs



By saying that we don't know. You keep stating this infinite void as fact, when it's not.


Well i dont agree because finite and infnite must have different Properties, they can not have the same Properties and still be different. And that must be a fact per defintion. Finite cant be infinite.


Ok, yes, we understand that those 2 words have opposite meanings. Yes, it's a fact that they are different concepts. That doesn't make one more plausible than another when talking about a theoretical void, nor does it mean that finite things can't exist within something that is infinite. Maybe nothing is infinite, it's all just humongous (or we are just very small).


Then my question to you is: What is finite and what is infinite? Do any of them exist?


Yes, they exist as concepts. We know that finite things exist because we observe them, however we cannot observe infinity or anything infinite, so it's simply impossible to know if a void in space qualifies as infinite. You are welcome to guess on this if you want, but if you are suggesting it's a known fact, you should double check that position.
edit on 3 5 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 5 2018 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: spy66

You sure can. However you are doing so from the point of ignorance.

I am still waiting for what you mean by "you people"




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