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A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

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posted on Feb, 18 2018 @ 01:52 AM
link   

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.




posted on Feb, 18 2018 @ 01:55 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


So you can't actually say it's a real thing? I guess you just kinda feel it in your gut, like an instinct or the butterflies when you know she's the one? I'm just saying, you got this down to a science, so show us the actual science.
edit on 18-2-2018 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2018 @ 09:34 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


You do realize that if you could measure infinity, it would no longer be infinity, right?



posted on Feb, 18 2018 @ 11:55 PM
link   

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


You do realize that if you could measure infinity, it would no longer be infinity, right?


Glad that you got my point.



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 12:51 AM
link   
 


off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 06:20 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


You do realize that if you could measure infinity, it would no longer be infinity, right?


Glad that you got my point.


If you can't measure or test infinity, that makes it useless as supporting evidence for the hypothesis of intelligent design. Since no one can confirm it.
edit on 19-2-2018 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 09:11 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: JAY1980
a reply to: edmc^2
Yes.
Everything has a beginning regardless of cause. Just like everything has an end.


Then it's a conundrum.

What was there before the beginning?

Here's a simulation of the birth of the Universe. Now tell me, do you think the "empty - black - space - dark space" surrounding the universe had a beginning too?







It would be wrong to think of empty space as "nothingness", a complete absence of anything. Space is a "fabric" that has energy and gives rise to virtual particles. Our universe (which may be just one of many) might have been born out of an area of false vacuum which spontaneously decayed to a lower energy state.


This brings us to another question.
If as you stated:




. Space is a "fabric" that has energy and gives rise to virtual particles.


What kind of force (in a vacuum_energy) will have the Power to transform energy into matter?

Is the 'Vaccum_Energy" static or dynamic?

It can't be zero else it will be static.




E = mc squared tells you that - at any point in the universe where energy exists, there's a potential to create matter.

The vacuum energy is called "Zero point energy", but it's actually fluctuations in the lowest energy state of a system. A state of "nothingness" doesn't exist in our universe (as far as I know). The mass-density of the universe is the Cosmological Constant which is arbitrary (I think) because the universe is expanding. From there, it gets complicated - currently above my pay grade, but still studying.



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 09:15 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.
edit on 19-2-2018 by Phantom423 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 11:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


You do realize that if you could measure infinity, it would no longer be infinity, right?


Glad that you got my point.


If you can't measure or test infinity, that makes it useless as supporting evidence for the hypothesis of intelligent design. Since no one can confirm it.


Now you're going on a tangent again. Now if you can answer this simple question, you'll see my point.

Can "something" like the concept of infinity - something limitless, without beginning or end be a part of the of the "medium" we call space?

Just because we can't measure something (from our limited understanding) doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist.



posted on Feb, 19 2018 @ 11:43 PM
link   

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.


The question has nothing to do with mathematics but with existence.

That is since infinity can't be measured - as the work clearly imply - does it exist?



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 06:43 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.


The question has nothing to do with mathematics but with existence.

That is since infinity can't be measured - as the work clearly imply - does it exist?





Since it can't be tested in any meaningful sense, it's more hypothesis than theory. Infinity isn't nearly as evident as gravity or the big bang or evolution. Infinity would be easily a thousand times the size of the observable universe and we simply don't have that scope in our reach. Infinity is only useful for defending similarly hypothetical concepts, much like using little green men to promote the loch ness monster. It's a moot point, as there is no way to confirm or deny, hence the appeal to ignorance on either side of the debate that ends in an obnoxious cycle of "well you don't know either, so there!" as of this moment in the forum, neither side wins unless we do something productive and cosmically irrelevant that would most likely take place offline with no regard for virtual debate. Quite the opposite of what is happening here.
edit on 20-2-2018 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 07:10 AM
link   
a reply to: edmc^2

i absolutely get your question.

and its a good one, its more of an existential question than anything else.

we mustn't assume for something to exist it must have a purpose or cause.
every scientist, gone or alive will never make a claim they have an answer, its always theories. even the most compelling ones, are simply that, theories.

what we know as reality, for all we know may not be reality.
or what if, all of this we know today, what if it actually is what 'nothingness' is. we could be what nothing is, since the human mind can conceptualize everything Except 'nothingness' .

we can't think of nothing without involving a color or absence of light, or sound. all we understand is based upon our ability to conceptualize what our external senses can perceive.
so your question may not have an answer. and here lies the problem, the human mind cannot accept such a proposal ; the proposal of a question without an answer.

the brain fundamentally cannot fathom something that doesn't exist. so asking the ultimate question will only lead to the creation of answers which our brain can accept ; and these answers are not the truth. they are just to pacify the yearning of everything must have an answer, or a 'beginning' in this case.

all we know is what exists, not one scientist or man will be able to have an answer, ever. our brains and mind cannot fathom or imagine non-existence.

forget all the chicken and egg mumbo jumbo.
edit on 20-2-2018 by odzeandennz because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 07:28 AM
link   

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.


The question has nothing to do with mathematics but with existence.

That is since infinity can't be measured - as the work clearly imply - does it exist?





Einstein's theory of general relativity says that an expanding universe started at a time in the infinite past when the density was infinite. Also, if you fall into a black hole you might encounter an infinity. To say it actually exists means you would need hard evidence - like everything else in science. If that's the criteria, then I guess we can't say with absolute certainty that infinity exists. Remember - you're talking about a cosmological infinity (I presume). There are different types of infinity in math and physics. But I know what you're driving at - the reality of infinity and does it exist. It becomes more of a philosophical question at this point.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 07:40 AM
link   
a reply to: odzeandennz




what we know as reality, for all we know may not be reality. or what if, all of this we know today, what if it actually is what 'nothingness' is. we could be what nothing is, since the human mind can conceptualize everything Except 'nothingness' .


That's very true. We're limited in our understanding of reality. Our reality is our reality. It's not necessarily the only reality. In fact, it may not be reality at all, that is if we knew the true definition of reality which we don't.

Our vision is limited so we develop telescopes and microscopes. Maybe someone will come up with a way to detect infinity. Anything is possible.

I like your response though - it's to the point.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 07:48 AM
link   

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.


The question has nothing to do with mathematics but with existence.

That is since infinity can't be measured - as the work clearly imply - does it exist?





Since it can't be tested in any meaningful sense, it's more hypothesis than theory. Infinity isn't nearly as evident as gravity or the big bang or evolution. Infinity would be easily a thousand times the size of the observable universe and we simply don't have that scope in our reach. Infinity is only useful for defending similarly hypothetical concepts, much like using little green men to promote the loch ness monster. It's a moot point, as there is no way to confirm or deny, hence the appeal to ignorance on either side of the debate that ends in an obnoxious cycle of "well you don't know either, so there!" as of this moment in the forum, neither side wins unless we do something productive and cosmically irrelevant that would most likely take place offline with no regard for virtual debate. Quite the opposite of what is happening here.


How do we know that infinity isn't on the head of a pin - the only requirement is that it must be unbounded. I don't think it's a moot point. It's always worthwhile thinking about unsolvable problems. As humans, it's the most frustrating thing imaginable - an unsolvable problem.



posted on Feb, 20 2018 @ 08:20 AM
link   
Quite simply, not a human alive is able to deduce the correct answer to the question.

...but I do think it's important for us to occasionally try.



posted on Feb, 21 2018 @ 02:21 PM
link   

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Phantom423

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.



Infinity is an abstraction. There's non objective reality to infinity. If it can be measured, then it's not infinite. Simple calculation: 6 + infinity = infinity and 6 - infinity = infinity and 6/infinity and 6*infinity = infinity. For any calculation which includes infinity, the outcome is always the same.
That's why mathematics and physics has developed accommodations to deal with infinite numbers so that they're useful in the every day world.


The question has nothing to do with mathematics but with existence.

That is since infinity can't be measured - as the work clearly imply - does it exist?





Since it can't be tested in any meaningful sense, it's more hypothesis than theory. Infinity isn't nearly as evident as gravity or the big bang or evolution. Infinity would be easily a thousand times the size of the observable universe and we simply don't have that scope in our reach. Infinity is only useful for defending similarly hypothetical concepts, much like using little green men to promote the loch ness monster. It's a moot point, as there is no way to confirm or deny, hence the appeal to ignorance on either side of the debate that ends in an obnoxious cycle of "well you don't know either, so there!" as of this moment in the forum, neither side wins unless we do something productive and cosmically irrelevant that would most likely take place offline with no regard for virtual debate. Quite the opposite of what is happening here.


How do we know that infinity isn't on the head of a pin - the only requirement is that it must be unbounded. I don't think it's a moot point. It's always worthwhile thinking about unsolvable problems. As humans, it's the most frustrating thing imaginable - an unsolvable problem.


it is the reason we are trying to solve it that frustrates me. finishing an incomplete equation for the theory of everything or neatly wrapping up the god problem purely for the sake of ego seems to me like inventing the cure for cancer because it tastes good on toast, or maybe it makes good fertilizer for plants.



posted on Feb, 23 2018 @ 10:53 AM
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originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

...there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.


Like I said, there's no mystery, only misunderstanding, and you plainly show how much you both misconceive concepts and misunderstand them.

Firstly, you are treating infinity as if it were a real existence, it isn't, it is merely an abstract. Equally, space itself is an abstract, made quantifiable (to a limited degree) by the content inside it, i.e, all the the galaxies, all the stars, and the planets and all the debris. It is all these things by which we are able to experience and comprehend the notion of space.

You can equally apply this to the room in which you sit. Firstly it is bounded by walls and a ceiling, so the space inside your room you know is definitely finite. Yet also, there is content in your room, yourself, a bed perhaps, a table, a chair, etc. By these thing you are able to comprehend the spatiality of the space in your room.

If there were no boundaries and no content, you would be unable to have any notion or experience of space and spatiality. However, the only real non-abstract elements in the space of the universe, or the space in your room, is the content in them.


So what's outside the "boundaries" (of the walls/ceilings) then if infinite space doesn't exist? i.e. what's outside the "boundary / boundaries" of the universe?



show us what is outside the boundaries of the universe then. show us measurements, pictures, something other than speculation and hypotheticals.


give me a tool to measure infinity and I'll show ya.


You do realize that if you could measure infinity, it would no longer be infinity, right?


Glad that you got my point.


Yep, that's what I was trying to say. Whether "infinity" exists or not, we will never know. That renders any statements about a possible infinity or evidence for it completely pointless.

I personally don't think anything is infinite in size, however things could be eternal or timeless, or be "infinite" in the sense that if you travel far enough you will end up back where you started, so more of a "loop". That's absolute speculation based on my own limited mind, so take that with a grain of salt.
edit on 2 23 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



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