A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

a reply to: surfer_soul

Why do people like you presume everyone who believes in a god also believe in religion

People like me eh...

Guess what Bud... Im not an Atheist

Pretty much as far as you can get from it as a matter of fact...

Check yourself before ye talk to someone you don't know

a reply to: Akragon

Well I don’t work for the NSA and haven’t seen where you’ve stated your thoughts on the matter previously. So going off what you said in the last few posts I wrongly assumed you were an atheist. Which is the point I was trying to make, when many atheists reject the notion of god they point to fallacies in religion. As if religion were sole authority on the matter.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
My point is many people who identify as Atheist reject religion and in turn the concept of god as if religion is the only authority on the subject. When it is not. Nobody can truly comprehend god, just as nobody can truly comprehend the infinite. Yet there we have it, the infinite is ultimately what we are dealing with when we contemplate the universe.

Actually there are religious atheists out there. Atheism is lack of belief in god, not religion, I think it's the other way around. They reject god, and therefor reject most religions as a result. It doesn't mean an atheist can't believe other things. Buddhist's for example, do not believe in god, but follow their religion. There are many other atheistic religions as well. To me, most people simply don't grasp what atheism actually is. All it is, is the lack of one particular belief. It doesn't define who a person is.

Most atheists reference the lack of supporting evidence for god, not just fallacies in religion. Theists very often present these fallacious arguments to us, so can you really blame the atheist for arguing against it? I'm not against theism or deism, per se, I just think the arguments people use to support such things are illogical and contradictory to evidence most of the time.

a reply to: Barcs

Indeed there are. E#ver hear of "cultural Christians". Sadly those are (White) identicists (ugh) but yes its a thing. There are a number of non-thesistic pagans (using my own frame of reference) and humanists too.

a reply to: Barcs

Thanks for explaining that, I’m still a bit confused about the Atheists position though. If Atheists believe in some things do they not require supporting evidence for those beliefs too then? And if so does that not make those same beliefs facts rather than beliefs? Or are there things the Atheist believes that can’t be proven?

Science can neither prove or disprove God, and I realise as the proposer the burden of proof is on me. But if I can’t use science to provide supporting evidence how else can I prove it? Moreover if there is no proof either way why not take the Agnostic position and remain neutral? It seems to me that Atheists have jumped to a conclusion with no supporting evidence either actually.

I used to be an Atheist myself, but in my case as with most of my friends at the time, this was because of a rejection of the concept of God the way Christianity presented it. I changed my mind later though on discovering different religions and philosophical thought. Namely Yogic philosophy and teachings which apparently originate from the Vedas. I’ve also had a personal experience, though relatively brief, completely life altering...Or was it mind altering..

a reply to: surfer_soul

what sort of question is god supposed to be the answer to? and how is that question relevant to who we are and what we are doing in this tiny little corner of the cosmos?

a reply to: TzarChasm

The question of the mystery of life and what we call reality, where it came from, and what it is, not as we perceive it, but as it really is. Though science is great for that too. As is reason and critical thinking as well as a healthy dose of scepticism.

I would also say it is different for everyone and that is how it is relevant to us on a personal level. Or irrelevant as the case may be.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: Barcs

Thanks for explaining that, I’m still a bit confused about the Atheists position though. If Atheists believe in some things do they not require supporting evidence for those beliefs too then? And if so does that not make those same beliefs facts rather than beliefs? Or are there things the Atheist believes that can’t be proven?

what do you think atheists believe? We simply don’t accept the claim that gods exist because there is no good reason to accept it. It is not atheists who say that god can’t be proven. It is the believers who claim that god must be outside of time and space. This clearly doesn’t make sense to rational people

Science can neither prove or disprove God, and I realise as the proposer the burden of proof is on me. But if I can’t use science to provide supporting evidence how else can I prove it?

why would you believe in a claim that makes no sense from a scientific pov? If i make a claim that can’t be proven, how do i convince you of it? The answer is, you shouldn’t accept it.

Moreover if there is no proof either way why not take the Agnostic position and remain neutral? It seems to me that Atheists have jumped to a conclusion with no supporting evidence either actually.

if i make an unproveable claim about invisible fairies in my garden, would you be agnostic about it? Or would you simply not accept my claim? Do you need supporting evidence that there are no fairies in my garden? Could there maybe be fairies in my garden?

I used to be an Atheist myself, but in my case as with most of my friends at the time, this was because of a rejection of the concept of God the way Christianity presented it. I changed my mind later though on discovering different religions and philosophical thought. Namely Yogic philosophy and teachings which apparently originate from the Vedas. I’ve also had a personal experience, though relatively brief, completely life altering...Or was it mind altering..

People have experiences that aren’t real all the time. That is a simple fact. Do you believe every claim that everybody makes? If i say i have faith that god doesn’t exist, is that any more compelling than someone else’s claim? Claims are a dime a dozen. The question is why do you believe? Is there compelling evidence? Or does it just make you feel better? That is an honest question you need to ask yourself?

a reply to: Akragon

What do you believe per se? I'm curious if you don't mind answering.

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
a reply to: Akragon

What do you believe per se? I'm curious if you don't mind answering.

Sure...

mine is not a belief, but much more then belief... I know God exists, but i will not go into detail about it

I do believe much of the information in the gospels are truth, but not as Christianity believes.

Though i do have a slight gnostic leaning... meaning that i don't believe for a second the OT God is the Father

Love me some Jesus though.... he was THE MAN

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
a reply to: Akragon

What do you believe per se? I'm curious if you don't mind answering.

Sure...

mine is not a belief, but much more then belief... I know God exists, but i will not go into detail about it

I do believe much of the information in the gospels are truth, but not as Christianity believes.

Though i do have a slight gnostic leaning... meaning that i don't believe for a second the OT God is the Father

Love me some Jesus though.... he was THE MAN

You don’t know. Just because you had an experience, doesn’t mean that experience was real.

Do you agree that not all experiences are real? Some people have experiences that aren’t real. Right?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
a reply to: Akragon

What do you believe per se? I'm curious if you don't mind answering.

Sure...

mine is not a belief, but much more then belief... I know God exists, but i will not go into detail about it

I do believe much of the information in the gospels are truth, but not as Christianity believes.

Though i do have a slight gnostic leaning... meaning that i don't believe for a second the OT God is the Father

Love me some Jesus though.... he was THE MAN

You don’t know. Just because you had an experience, doesn’t mean that experience was real.

Do you agree that not all experiences are real? Some people have experiences that aren’t real. Right?

absolutely...

Though this is also why i don't go into detail about why and how i know...

I put myself in the cross hairs of every person who disagrees... And i prefer to be the shooter

so to speak

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: MonarchofBooks1611
a reply to: Akragon

What do you believe per se? I'm curious if you don't mind answering.

Sure...

mine is not a belief, but much more then belief... I know God exists, but i will not go into detail about it

I do believe much of the information in the gospels are truth, but not as Christianity believes.

Though i do have a slight gnostic leaning... meaning that i don't believe for a second the OT God is the Father

Love me some Jesus though.... he was THE MAN

You don’t know. Just because you had an experience, doesn’t mean that experience was real.

Do you agree that not all experiences are real? Some people have experiences that aren’t real. Right?

absolutely...

Though this is also why i don't go into detail about why and how i know...

I put myself in the cross hairs of every person who disagrees... And i prefer to be the shooter

so to speak

Sounds like an unbelievable story. Why do you believe it?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Its not just a story... happens all the time actually...

God tends to wink at us a lot of the time... most don't notice though

Along with quite a few experiences... theres just no other answer

In any case this thread isn't about me

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Woodcarver

Its not just a story... happens all the time actually...

God tends to wink at us a lot of the time... most don't notice though

Along with quite a few experiences... theres just no other answer

In any case this thread isn't about me

But there is another answer. That the universe is a seemingly infinite amount of natural chemical reactions that have been going on for nearly 14 billion years. At least, that’s what it looks like when we look at it. I don’t see any gods. I see a lot of people who say they have experiences that sound unbelievable. I met a guy who thought he was Robert Redford. Should i believe him? I met a guy who believes in Brahma, should i believe him?

Why should i believe you? What good are your beliefs in the face of anyone else’s? What harm could be caused for believing in things that make no sense or even making room for and tolerating everybody's unprovable beliefs? Do you follow? Should everybody's beliefs be equally valid and above reproach? Or can we think of some kind of standard for how we come to our beliefs?

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Why should i believe you? What good are your beliefs in the face of anyone else’s?

He is not asking you to believe him.

They are no good and that is why he isn't going into it.

I'm the same way. I'm an atheist but have had many OBEs and those shaped what I believe. I can't prove anything so there is little point in trying to offer it as proof of anything.

a reply to: Woodcarver

That the universe is a seemingly infinite amount of natural chemical reactions that have been going on for nearly 14 billion years. At least, that’s what it looks like when we look at it. I don’t see any gods.

i agree... and unfortunately i don't "see" any gods either...

I don't see spirits... never talked to a ghost or angel IF they even exist... perhaps i wasn't blessed with such abilities, whereas some people are... perhaps they're delusional? Or maybe they actually see these things... i really don't know

Some of my residents have full conversations with people that arn't there... a lot of them as they are in their last few hours or days of life... what i do know is that life is far more then what we can see

I see a lot of people who say they have experiences that sound unbelievable. I met a guy who thought he was Robert Redford. Should i believe him? I met a guy who believes in Brahma, should i believe him?

I don't know... should you?

Why should i believe you? What good are your beliefs in the face of anyone else’s?

You shouldn't believe me... i am no one

And in the face of everyone else's beliefs, i really couldn't care less what they believe... though i do enjoy a good debate about beliefs of others

my beliefs are my own... and the fact is no one can prove God to anyone else

a reply to: Woodcarver

What harm could be caused for believing in things that make no sense or even making room for and tolerating everybody's unprovable beliefs? Do you follow?

Im sure great harm can be caused by believing in things that make no sense... or even believing in religion in general as most of us clearly know...

My beliefs cause no harm... in fact that is one of my major beliefs

Should everybody's beliefs be equally valid and above reproach? Or can we think of some kind of standard for how we come to our beliefs?

Everyone is welcome to whatever they believe... there is no standard...

a reply to: Akragon

I know a couple of psyche nurses who talk to trees because they believe that spirits live in them. I know it seems like no problem, and no one is getting hurt, but, they are both starting families. Those kids are going to be taught this stuff.


I know there is no way to enforce rational thinking on people, and i wouldn’t want to if i could. I would rather talk about what standards could be used to come to rational beliefs and see if their beliefs meet their own standards for what they would accept from another person.

The line always seems to be when one person’s beliefs physically effect another person’s body or their property. But what about mental harm? Couldn’t it be a good thing if people were taught to be more rational in their beliefs? Could there actions become more rational as a result? What if people weren’t mindless sheep who believed in fairy tales and superstitions? Maybe they wouldn’t be so easily lead? Idk. Just a thought.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You have a problem with others spiritual practices? What you described is a form of animism, and pantheism. Speaking as a Pagan, I have no issue with them believing that any more than a Christian believing in their deity. Oh and I'm a Scientist by trade.