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A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

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posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: craterman
That's my point. There has to be an eternal. And that alone overwhelms the human mind. Materialistically, as we know and understand it, that makes no sense whatsoever. This is where the atheist says 'oh, but all the laws of physics breakdown at the point of compression or expansion' and they unwittingly admit that all those laws of physics and chemistry really don't mean anything in that aspect. At least I guess we can all agree on that.
Not directed to Barcs, just in general:

Say the big bang did occur. Something may have caused it. What? I don't know is really the only answer any of us have. I say God. You say you don't know. But somehow I am wrong?

a reply to: Barcs



Thats because your using the argument from ignorance fallacy. Eg 'I dont know so ill make something up and go with that cause it appeals to me.'

This is a fallacy.

Coomba98




posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: craterman
That explanation completely ignores two things. A spirit is not a material thing and things that apply to the material world do not have to apply to the spiritual and the spirit can be eternal.

a reply to: TzarChasm




Spirit, something else our tools and methods can't detect or measure but is assumed to have a very particular set of properties that can't be confirmed in any useful manner. Please do elaborate on how spirit solves the "uncaused cause" conundrum. Feel free to show your math and provide visual aids if available. We'd love to see that.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: surfer_soul

I see what you are saying, but the fact remains that if god exists eternally, then he just happened to randomly exist. That means he didn't come from anything, which is the same as coming from nothing. That doesn't mean he poofed himself into existence, it means he has no origin or explanation. He's just there (or the universe is just there). The causality problem still exists with god or the universe being eternal because how did one or the other come to exist in the first place?

Either way something has to be eternal, but how could something eternal just happen to exist? I feel it's far more complicated than simply god or nothing. What we see as the physical known universe, is probably like .0000000000000000001% of what's actually out there.



Sorry Barcs, but I can't stop giggling about this statement:




if god exists eternally, then he just happened to randomly exist.


One can't "randomly exist" if one "exists eternally".

It's one way or the other - not both.







Existing eternally with no cause seems pretty random. "lacking pattern or predictability" fits quite neatly with "God works in mysterious ways, including not following the rules that define his existence". Unless you are easily persuaded by ontological arguments. Eternity is an idea expressing that which cannot be measured and therefore defies all methods of testing or recording. What a convenient property to possess. So how about this?

I'm God. I created existence and devised the mechanics of reality before incarnating as an ignorant human. Now prove me wrong.

edit on 22-1-2018 by TzarChasm because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 05:07 PM
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edmc^2:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?


No! Is the plain and simple answer, because you are describing non-existence! All forms of existence have a cause to their existence. Your question is like asking where does a circle begin once it has been drawn? It's start is irrelevant, but its existence is not.

There is no mystery, only a lack of understanding.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:22 PM
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Again, you keep asking for material evidence for a spiritual world. Why would there have to be any? Is there any evidence for what caused the big bang? Then it didn't happen? Your approach doesn't make any sense. Is this universe eternal? You have no idea, and if you can admit that fact, then you surly have no idea if there is a God. You keep asking for equations. Sad existence it must be.

a reply to: TzarChasm



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:23 PM
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Prove it.

a reply to: coomba98



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:24 PM
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We can only believe. God requires no math and you don't have the math for a better answer. Maybe you believe the same as me and hadn't realized it yet.

a reply to: daskakik



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:24 PM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
edmc^2:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?


No! Is the plain and simple answer, because you are describing non-existence! All forms of existence have a cause to their existence. Your question is like asking where does a circle begin once it has been drawn? It's start is irrelevant, but its existence is not.

There is no mystery, only a lack of understanding.


Sure! There's no mystery if you put it that way.

That is, "All forms of existence have a cause to their existence."

True - IF that is ALWAYS the case. But it's not. Fact is, there is such "thing" as infinity - as in infinite space.

So tell me, does space have a beginning or end, for that matter?

What was there before the creation of the physical universe?

Nothing? or "Something" infinite?

Does an infinite (invisible) space have a form?

Is space a form?

What's your understanding?



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:27 PM
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a reply to: craterman

You’re entirely ignoring the fact that if your version of god can interact with the material world, then there would be evidence of this occurring. None will not can any be demonstrated. You’re grasping so hard to your strawman argument that you can’t see how much you contradict yourself by employing logical fallacies to prop up and support the way you want things to be instead of how they actually are.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:27 PM
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originally posted by: craterman
Too much presumption there to even respond. You have no idea what happened 13 billion years ago and only want to diminish the probability of a God.


No, you guys are the ones projecting that he exists using flawed logic and fallacy. Last I checked, nobody knows what caused the big bang. If you believe in god that's fine, but stop acting like it's the only possibility. You don't know any better than I do about 13 billion years ago.


That's my point. There has to be an eternal.

If an eternal aspect exists, it doesn't have to be god. That's MY point.


Say the big bang did occur. Something may have caused it. What? I don't know is really the only answer any of us have. I say God. You say you don't know. But somehow I am wrong?


You aren't necessarily wrong, you are just using poor logic. Atheists aren't the ones out there preaching propaganda and screaming to the high heavens that god doesn't exist. They are merely calling out illogical claims. I say "I don't know" because I actually don't know. You insert god as the explanation based on faith alone and project it as fact.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that there are tons of possibilities. To suggest yours is any more likely than mine is absurd. Nobody knows the answer, but I can tell you one thing. There is no mathematical theory of god.


Again, you keep asking for material evidence for a spiritual world. Why would there have to be any?


Because you are the one claiming it exists and using it as an argument in favor of god's existence. It's illogical to use subjective concepts as evidence for something.
edit on 1 22 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 07:43 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2
One can't "randomly exist" if one "exists eternally".


Last I checked, it doesn't get more random than, "he just happens to be there."


edit on 1 22 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:00 PM
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originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: edmc^2
One can't "randomly exist" if one "exists eternally".


Last I checked, it doesn't get more random than, "he just happens to be there."



sure - like randomly happened by chance.

tehee



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:06 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2
sure - like randomly happened by chance.

That is the point, you don't know either so why even bother trying to pass off "One can't "randomly exist" if one "exists eternally", as some kind of valid argument.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:45 PM
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originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: edmc^2
sure - like randomly happened by chance.

That is the point, you don't know either so why even bother trying to pass off "One can't "randomly exist" if one "exists eternally", as some kind of valid argument.


you still don't see it, do you?

there's no need for something to randomly exist if it ALWAYS existed.

it's an oxymoron to say otherwise.



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:46 PM
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originally posted by: craterman
Prove it.

a reply to: coomba98



Prove what?

I do not understand your question.

Coomba98



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: edmc^2

That is a nice gnosis you have their friend. You are not trying to pass that idea off as something verifiable are you?



posted on Jan, 22 2018 @ 09:00 PM
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a reply to: edmc^2

But you can't prove "the" creator has always existed so your argument, while seemingly logical, is still invalid.



edit on 22-1-2018 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2018 @ 06:29 AM
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Thats because your using the argument from ignorance fallacy. Eg 'I dont know so ill make something up and go with that cause it appeals to me.'

This is a fallacy.

Coomba98

You seem certain that I am wrong. Prove it. I could be exactly correct. You don't know, you only believe.

a reply to: coomba98



posted on Jan, 23 2018 @ 06:43 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?


Back at you: if God exists, it must have had a beginning. What caused God, and if God had a cause, wouldn't that mean God is not the creator?

As for the answer to your "unanswerable" question: causality is a mental construct.



posted on Jan, 23 2018 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: edmc^2
sure - like randomly happened by chance.


Yes, exactly. If god just happens to exist, then that's just the way it is and god is just there by random chance with no logical explanation. He just happens to be the only thing that exists and the default state of the universe. It doesn't get more random and lucky than that. At least with things like evolution and abiogenesis, we can see what actually causes such things, they don't just randomly happen to exist like your magical creator.


there's no need for something to randomly exist if it ALWAYS existed.


You are having great difficulty understanding this, likely because you don't want to. If god just happens to always exists, it is random that he's even there in the first place because there is no explanation of how he got there or where he came from. He literally just happens to be there. Talk about luck and random chance lol.


edit on 1 23 18 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



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