A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

originally posted by: surfer_soul

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: surfer_soul


I’ve a question oh great knowledgable ones. How does intelligence, and indeed life itself evolve out of inanimate matter?

Further why would it? What’s the point?

Posted a link about that a couple pages back. But as usual, direct answers are ignored in favor of attacking straw men and one upping each other.

I didn’t see it, I’ve looked and still can’t find your link either. Is it so hard to re-post it again? I’m not trying to one up anyone BTW just looking for answers to what must be the greatest mystery of them all.

Not sure what the greatest mystery is exactly, but I am almost positive this isnt it. Trying to puzzle out where this universe came from and how life happened, just to prop up our ego and shoehorn some grandiose purpose into the frame of our reality. Thats not mysterious at all.

Also, relevant link for abiogenesis on the previous page, last post. Fairly easy to look up on google.

a reply to: Phantom423

Thank you for the detailed reply. I have no problem with evolution though, nor have I confused it with the origin of life. It seems to me however that life had the ability to evolve right from the start.

The definition of life is the ability to reproduce. But no one can say with absolute certainty how life arose on this planet.

That is as I thought. The definition of life is also the mystery of life to my mind. The ability or even the need to reproduce. Some life forms are able to repair themselves indefinitely it seems if they wished to do so. Most are programmed to self destruct, but only after at least attempting to reproduce first for the most part.
If we examine the universe we can see that everything is in a state of entropy, everything except life itself, which has somehow found a way to assemble the chemistry around it and reproduce itself in almost countless forms and fill every niche it can cling onto. If I’m not mistaken certain spores can even survive in the vacuum of space..

Then we have it’s remarkable ability to adapt and evolve itself until it becomes self aware, and is able to communicate with a similar life form in real time across the planet. Questioning what it is, and how it came to be here in the first place.

This I find fascinating.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Thanks for posting the link you referenced again. From your link it says this.

How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Nonetheless, several types of experiments provide important evidence bearing on some steps of the process.

I’m sure the experiments do indeed reveal important steps in the process of how life got going. But just how it emerged in the first place is still a matter of speculation.

Who can say if life has any purpose? But without one what’s the point? And if there’s no point, what’s it doing? Seems mysterious enough to me.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: TzarChasm

Thanks for posting the link you referenced again. From your link it says this.

How life originated and how the first cell came into being are matters of speculation, since these events cannot be reproduced in the laboratory. Nonetheless, several types of experiments provide important evidence bearing on some steps of the process.

I’m sure the experiments do indeed reveal important steps in the process of how life got going. But just how it emerged in the first place is still a matter of speculation.

Who can say if life has any purpose? But without one what’s the point? And if there’s no point, what’s it doing? Seems mysterious enough to me.

Are you familiar with the significance of 42? In programming jargon it was a "wild card". It is daunting to be told you must pen your own contemporarily relevant fate and legacy, but it is the most probable method any of us can hope for. Existence is futile, but that is only painful if you dont check your ego. Accept what you have and devise the most graceful expiration you can muster. The alternative is letting accident and happenstance determine your legacy. How life happened and where the universe came from are irrelevant questions, better suited for minds that arent insecure over their relatively infinitesimal nature.

a reply to: craterman

Still waiting on those answers you said you had. It's as if you can't provide them...

a reply to: Phantom423

Pretty much. Typical creationist who ignore any actual evidence and builds a man of straw .... Till something huffs and it puffs.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Excellent article. Going to post it to the ATS Library. Actually, I think it should be a sticky because the article has very detailed explanations for questions that are often asked on this board. I'll make a separate post. Thanks for posting it.

a reply to: Phantom423

It's nice to see people learning something around here. Makes the whole pissing contest kind of worthwhile.

a reply to: surfer_soul

If we examine the universe we can see that everything is in a state of entropy, everything except life itself, which has somehow found a way to assemble the chemistry around it and reproduce itself in almost countless forms and fill every niche it can cling onto. If I’m not mistaken certain spores can even survive in the vacuum of space..

I think I understand your point, but just to clarify what entropy is, everything in the universe, including us, has the thermodynamic property of entropy. Entropy is always positive, or always increases, and is never negative. The energy in the human body is transformed from one state to another. As the body builds and uses energy, it is balanced by energy given off as heat. If an object or a body is at zero entropy, it's at equilibrium with its environment. Another way to think of entropy is energy that's not available to us for work.

This cute little guy can live anywhere including space. So indeed, life has an amazing ability to survive. I would bet that life is ubiquitous throughout the universe. Just a matter of finding it.



Facts About Tardigrades

Tardigrades, often called water bears or moss piglets, are near-microscopic animals with long, plump bodies and scrunched-up heads. They have eight legs, and hands with four to eight claws on each. While strangely cute, these tiny animals are almost indestructible and can even survive in outer space.

www.livescience.com...

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Phantom423

It's nice to see people learning something around here. Makes the whole pissing contest kind of worthwhile.

I agree. And you never know who's reading the posts and opening the links. I hope it does inspire a few to learn the real science.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: surfer_soul

If we examine the universe we can see that everything is in a state of entropy, everything except life itself, which has somehow found a way to assemble the chemistry around it and reproduce itself in almost countless forms and fill every niche it can cling onto. If I’m not mistaken certain spores can even survive in the vacuum of space..

I think I understand your point, but just to clarify what entropy is, everything in the universe, including us, has the thermodynamic property of entropy. Entropy is always positive, or always increases, and is never negative. The energy in the human body is transformed from one state to another. As the body builds and uses energy, it is balanced by energy given off as heat. If an object or a body is at zero entropy, it's at equilibrium with its environment. Another way to think of entropy is energy that's not available to us for work.

This cute little guy can live anywhere including space. So indeed, life has an amazing ability to survive. I would bet that life is ubiquitous throughout the universe. Just a matter of finding it.

Facts About Tardigrades

Tardigrades, often called water bears or moss piglets, are near-microscopic animals with long, plump bodies and scrunched-up heads. They have eight legs, and hands with four to eight claws on each. While strangely cute, these tiny animals are almost indestructible and can even survive in outer space.

www.livescience.com...

What a conundrum!

Entropy is always positive, or always increases, and is never negative.

!

If this is the case and it is per the laws of thermodynamics - where or what then is the source?

It can't be "something" with a beginning for that which has a beginning feeds from the source with no beginning.

hence the finite emanates from the infinite.

back to the question.

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

a reply to: edmc^2

It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: edmc^2

It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

must be related to Bill Clinton, eh?

So where does entropy feeding from to prevent equilibrium?

originally posted by: edmc^2
So where does entropy feeding from to prevent equilibrium?

Did you mean "So where 'is' entropy feeding from to prevent equilibrium?" If so, then the above might apply.

Honestly, I had to look up entropy to try and google fu what you are talking about. First thing I saw was that it applies to closed systems. Wiki offered:

The difference between an isolated system and closed system is that heat may not flow to and from an isolated system, but heat flow to and from a closed system is possible.

Do we even know if the universe is open, closed or isolated? That might be the reason the question can't be answered.

The big bang-big crunch theory says that the beginning of this cycle was a big bang. It doesn't say that it is "the beginning".

back to the question.

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

I'm going to say no. Now what?

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: surfer_soul

If we examine the universe we can see that everything is in a state of entropy, everything except life itself, which has somehow found a way to assemble the chemistry around it and reproduce itself in almost countless forms and fill every niche it can cling onto. If I’m not mistaken certain spores can even survive in the vacuum of space..

I think I understand your point, but just to clarify what entropy is, everything in the universe, including us, has the thermodynamic property of entropy. Entropy is always positive, or always increases, and is never negative. The energy in the human body is transformed from one state to another. As the body builds and uses energy, it is balanced by energy given off as heat. If an object or a body is at zero entropy, it's at equilibrium with its environment. Another way to think of entropy is energy that's not available to us for work.

This cute little guy can live anywhere including space. So indeed, life has an amazing ability to survive. I would bet that life is ubiquitous throughout the universe. Just a matter of finding it.

Facts About Tardigrades

Tardigrades, often called water bears or moss piglets, are near-microscopic animals with long, plump bodies and scrunched-up heads. They have eight legs, and hands with four to eight claws on each. While strangely cute, these tiny animals are almost indestructible and can even survive in outer space.

www.livescience.com...

What a conundrum!

Entropy is always positive, or always increases, and is never negative.

!

If this is the case and it is per the laws of thermodynamics - where or what then is the source?

It can't be "something" with a beginning for that which has a beginning feeds from the source with no beginning.

hence the finite emanates from the infinite.

back to the question.

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

how about you answer your own question and we fact check? that sound cool?

a reply to: edmc^2

I think I gave you my answer way back at the beginning of your thread. If something has no cause, then it has no beginning, it has no end - it's infinity.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Are you familiar with the significance of 42? In programming jargon it was a "wild card"

I’m only familiar with it as referenced in hitch hikers guide to the galaxy. Where 42 was the answer to everything. I’m sure it was meant as a joke though.

It is daunting to be told you must pen your own contemporarily relevant fate and legacy, but it is the most probable method any of us can hope for.

What’s daunting about exercising ones free will? Many would consider it liberating.The most probable method of what exactly? Leaving behind some legacy?

Existence is futile

What can any of us hope for if the above statement is true? Do you not see the contradiction here?

but that is only painful if you dont check your ego. Accept what you have and devise the most graceful expiration you can muster.

I won’t be devising my own expiration graceful or otherwise thank you. There are plenty of things out there capable of doing it for me, including my own body clock eventually. The ego will perish along with the body. But I am not entirely my ego.

The alternative is letting accident and happenstance determine your legacy.

Accident and happenstance make up a great deal of determining anyone’s legacy right from the get go. There is only so much control anyone can have in their life, the rest is down to accident and happenstance.

How life happened and where the universe came from are irrelevant questions, better suited for minds that arent insecure over their relatively infinitesimal nature.

Irrelevant you say? Irrelevant or impossible to answer? Better suited for who’s minds exactly? You seem to think I’m insecure over my infinitesimal nature. But I am not, I am fully aware of my near absolute insignificance in the grand scheme of things.
That doesn’t mean I can’t question things, or apply reason and logic to arrive at answers to those questions. It is the very nature of humans to ask and answer questions of our reality, to discover the otherwise unknown. To explore and try to comprehend as much of our existence as we can.

Chance a living cell just created itself from nature about 1:1x10^40,000. Estimated number of subatomic particles in universe about 1x10^256.

Second law of thermodynamics says a closed system will increase in entropy. How did life come about if that is true?

You may say there is an outside force. And I would agree.


a reply to: Noinden

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Idreamofme
a reply to: edmc^2

See what I mean? You say chicken, other dude says egg. You both sound smart. And no one knows.

That's why I gave you a "HINT" which was also a slyly phrased answer. No one knows

Of course if you believe that.

I don't. To me, there's always an ultimate answer otherwise I'll be like you - unsure.

oh please.....you are as unsure as the rest of humanity......if you had been there in person when the big bang happened, I would give you the benefit, otherwise your as much in the dark as everyone else.

Here's a simple question that has stumped theists and deists alike.

Where did god come from? How does he just randomly happen to exist? Why can god exist eternally just randomly out of nowhere, but the universe can't?

I've never heard a theist or deist answer this question without major deflection and changing the subject.