A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If something exists, it had a beginning.

If something exists, there was a time that it did not exist.

Infinity is an impossibility.

You would have to first prove there is a finite number of things. Until that is proven you could never assume there was ever a time prior to a thing.

No.

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

I don't have to prove infinity just because I was proofing the logic of your statement.

What you said requires proof of a finite number of things. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm pointing out that your logic didn't prove your premise.

You do though. Asking me to prove the universe is finite would require an amount of data that the entire human race hasn't amassed yet.

So I'm asking you to make this easy, and give me any example of where infinity is an observable reality.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: ancientthunder
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

There is no/thing that has no cause, therefore no/thing has no beginning.

When you say "no/thing" do you mean the emptiness, the void - absolute no/thing?

The human mind cannot fathom the concept of nothing. No matter what you tell yourself.

Of course. How can you fathom nothing if there's nothing to fathom?

But was there really 'no/thing' to begin with?

I notice your quote is from Albert Einstein.

He admitted that the biggest blunder of his life was introducing the cosmological constant into the theory of relativity.

He had a hard time believing the universe wasn't static.

Realizing that everything in our universe had a beginning was troubling. To a lot of people.

Yup. I agree with you there my friend. Einstein's theory on relativity is questionable based on new findings and understanding.

Hence, math based theories are always suspect until proven to be true.

No. Prove that. Einstein was Not disproven year!

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: rockintitz
And I say that's no different than invoking God, or a creator.

We can't know.

There is a difference in whether there is intelligent design or not. Suggesting God means something beyond infinity since God would be the creator of that too...

No, we're suggesting something beyond our understanding. Both are unknowable. Both are therefore equal as theories.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: edmc^2
...But first let me please state this scientific and incontrovertible fact:

What you have just said, is that you know little to nothing about 'science', and that you have some 'belief' that you need to feed/propagate.
Science does not deal in 'facts', it deals in 'tentative theories'.
Note the difference;

"New study of the brain shows that facts and beliefs are processed in exactly the same way."

www.newsweek.com...

Everything that has a beginning has a cause. If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

What say you?

First, I see no 'facts' offered, simply a syllogism.
Your premise that
"Everything that has a beginning has a cause."
must be accepted, whether true or not. (a problem with 'formal logic')
But it makes sense to me, I'm willing to tentatively equate the two.

Upon that 'valid statement, the next follows/asks;
"If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?"
Which would obviously be 'no', since 'cause' is equated with 'beginning', no one equal no other.

A is a function of B, no B = no A.

Causality is a refuted theory, as is 'beginnings' and ends', ultimately.
As is 'motion'.
As is 'time'... *__-

Nameless one, you're going deep on me here. I'm just stating the simple fact and the obvious.

Understood.
I'm just stating that the 'simple fact', and the 'obvious', isn't necessarily; that mirages are features of 'reality', but do not exist 'out there', for instance, as our senses proclaim.

a reply to: edmc^2

I don't see whats complicated about this question...

Without a cause there isn't a beginning to anything

what is the issue?

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: edmc^2
There's a question that had been asked around. But somehow, it's baffling why smart thinking people are unable to give a straight answer.
They go round and round explaining how stuffs work and how science work but never giving an answer. Sometimes they say the question doesn't make sense. Some say we don't know the answer. But some protest that it's a leading question. But really, are they being honest as to what they know or is it that they don't want to admit the obvious?

Well let's see where you stand.

But first let me please state this scientific and incontrovertible fact:

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.

So, what's the answer to this simple question:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

What say you?

You might call me an atheist and evolutionist, and I am not stumped at all. The question might seem very simple to you, but it's not.

Classically the universe looks deterministic. But when you try to look closer there is the uncertainty principle that gets in your way. So from my understanding no one knows.

Now to get back to your mockery of atheism and science. As an atheist I have no problems to admit that there are things that I don't know or understand. But in contrast to believers I don't make up deities to fill these gaps of knowledge.

I get your point, and I'm not mocking atheism and science, I'm merely asking a simple Q.

What say you?

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

How many decimal places has Pi been worked out to by a person? How many decimal places exist between 1.1 and 1.2? Mathematically, there are an infinite number of decimal places between those 2 numbers, Pi is the same, it can be worked out seemingly forever.

Your question is a paradox because there is no 'something' to begin with, you are, at a most fundamental level, referring to 'something' in order for you to conceptualize it's very existence....as to whether this 'something' occurred in order for 'something' to exist. Likewise with 'cause' - 'cause' is 'something'.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If you look at our universe it is basically within a bubble of laws, so how do we establish a beginning if there is no beginning outside of our universe? Can we suggest that the singularity of our universe is the beginning for us, but it is also part of infinite possibilities. In this case we can have a beginning due to the laws of our universe but the bigger picture has no beginning.

Maybe time, beginning etc is just a function of our little bubble floating inside of infinity...

In a roundabout way whether you're aware of it or not you gave part of the answer - infinity.

Question is - does infinity exist? If so then it must have no beginning.

Now you are a assuming infinity is a 'thing' rather than a concept. Infinity is a way to express a concept. Even if the universe is infinite it doesn't mean it wasn't broken off from another infinite universe. What you're doing is discussing infinity in the 3rd dimension.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If you look at our universe it is basically within a bubble of laws, so how do we establish a beginning if there is no beginning outside of our universe? Can we suggest that the singularity of our universe is the beginning for us, but it is also part of infinite possibilities. In this case we can have a beginning due to the laws of our universe but the bigger picture has no beginning.

Maybe time, beginning etc is just a function of our little bubble floating inside of infinity...

In a roundabout way whether you're aware of it or not you gave part of the answer - infinity.

Question is - does infinity exist? If so then it must have no beginning.

Now you are a assuming infinity is a 'thing' rather than a concept. Infinity is a way to express a concept. Even if the universe is infinite it doesn't mean it wasn't broken off from another infinite universe. What you're doing is discussing infinity in the 3rd dimension.

And all you're doing is pushing the question back.

Either what is here always was, or it wasn't.

originally posted by: edmc^2
Can something exist without a cause?

If not, what caused god?

originally posted by: edmc^2

Question is - does infinity exist? If so then it must have no beginning.

Infinity has no beginning or end...in other words time does not exist. In our universe we have a beginning and an end since time does exist within our universe bubble. One of the big questions asked was whether time would flow backwards if the universe stopped expanding and started to retract. This has a lot to do with the theory of Chaos in that order continues to move forward into a chaotic state. Like a rack of pool balls that never end back up in the triangle of order would the universe in a collapse state reverse time too as this chaotic state flowed back into a state of order.

The right words is to say infinity must have no time...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: edmc^2

I don't see whats complicated about this question...

Without a cause there isn't a beginning to anything

what is the issue?

Without a cause there isn't a beginning to anything

And how do you know this?

For example, does infinity have a cause to be infinite?

Logic says no. because infinity has neither a beginning nor end.

Edit:
looks like I have the same thought as x-zero.

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If you look at our universe it is basically within a bubble of laws, so how do we establish a beginning if there is no beginning outside of our universe? Can we suggest that the singularity of our universe is the beginning for us, but it is also part of infinite possibilities. In this case we can have a beginning due to the laws of our universe but the bigger picture has no beginning.

Maybe time, beginning etc is just a function of our little bubble floating inside of infinity...

In a roundabout way whether you're aware of it or not you gave part of the answer - infinity.

Question is - does infinity exist? If so then it must have no beginning.

Now you are a assuming infinity is a 'thing' rather than a concept. Infinity is a way to express a concept. Even if the universe is infinite it doesn't mean it wasn't broken off from another infinite universe. What you're doing is discussing infinity in the 3rd dimension.

3rd dimension, 4th dimension....nth dimension - infinity is infinity. It doesn't have a dimension nor extend to a dimension - it's always infinite to no end.

Edit:

signing off...zzzzz.

If a tree falls down and nobody is there to hear it,dies it make a sound? I'm three sheets to the wind now,so please do entertain that Pearl of beer wisdom.

a reply to: edmc^2

For example, does infinity have a cause to be infinite?

Isn't infinity forever?

always has been and will be?

Logic says no. because infinity has neither a beginning nor end.

Thus infinity equals what... father time?

originally posted by: Idreamofme

You sound smart. how do you know hydrogen came first? Science book?

Hydrogen is element 1 duh... hehe What came before element 1 other than a singularity?

Hydrogen powers suns, within the tremendous pressures and gravity of super novas other elements are created, the first 5 billion years was just massive suns going super nova creating the other 90 natural elements in our universe throughout the stages of those super novas.

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If something exists, it had a beginning.

If something exists, there was a time that it did not exist.

Infinity is an impossibility.

You would have to first prove there is a finite number of things. Until that is proven you could never assume there was ever a time prior to a thing.

No.

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

I don't have to prove infinity just because I was proofing the logic of your statement.

What you said requires proof of a finite number of things. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm pointing out that your logic didn't prove your premise.

You do though. Asking me to prove the universe is finite would require an amount of data that the entire human race hasn't amassed yet.

So I'm asking you to make this easy, and give me any example of where infinity is an observable reality.

That's not how logical argument works. There is no counter-proof. A logical argument either is true or not based on its own content. I don't have to prove infinity is true for your logical argument not to be sound.

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

From a metaphysical perspective

The answer to this is that it all depends on the world one is immersed in.


We’re in a world of beginnings and endings and causes that are created
In a world of decay

In the imagination we can postulate a world of no beginnings we would call the world of God--the infinite

Everything else has a cause, beginning and ending as God’s creations

Creation is a destructive process, that’s one reason for our destruction

Buddha said within creation are born its seeds of destruction

It’s a cycle of decay and suffering and bondage

In this cycle are seeds of liberation because God or the infinite relates to us through As Above so Below or Yin Yang,
Opposites

So what if science can't answer that question yet?

Is there a single person alive that would claim we have all the answers.
I live how people who attack science in this way jump straight to a supernatural explanation.

Can't explain something? Invisible deity did it off course...

Ridiculous

originally posted by: flatbush71
Not really, after seeing what I've seen, heard and learned in 70 years, you reach a point where you realize that there is a limit and many things are better left alone. When you get old and gray it will make much more sense than it does now.

Buck

Ummm...why is it better to leave the question of the origin of the universe alone?