A very simple question that seem to stumped both atheists and evolutionists alike.

originally posted by: edmc^2
There's a question that had been asked around. But somehow, it's baffling why smart thinking people are unable to give a straight answer.
They go round and round explaining how stuffs work and how science work but never giving an answer. Sometimes they say the question doesn't make sense. Some say we don't know the answer. But some protest that it's a leading question. But really, are they being honest as to what they know or is it that they don't want to admit the obvious?

Well let's see where you stand.

But first let me please state this scientific and incontrovertible fact:

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.

So, what's the answer to this simple question:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

What say you?

You might call me an atheist and evolutionist, and I am not stumped at all. The question might seem very simple to you, but it's not.

Classically the universe looks deterministic. But when you try to look closer there is the uncertainty principle that gets in your way. So from my understanding no one knows.

Now to get back to your mockery of atheism and science. As an atheist I have no problems to admit that there are things that I don't know or understand. But in contrast to believers I don't make up deities to fill these gaps of knowledge.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If "something" exists - - why would it exist without a cause?

good question. here lies the conundrum.

The ultimate question to our existence.

Can something exist without a cause?

Something meaning what? I'm getting the feeling this is a Creation question.

I believe everything is energy and evolved from energy.

What is the source of energy?

It's a scientific question - as well as philosophical.

But, you're not answering the question.

"What is the source of energy?"

Or if I put it this way - what caused energy?

Something greater than energy. Something that can produce energy - in short the source of raw material.

Hence the question from the op:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

That was the question I asked you. What is the source of energy?

Still sounds like you're going for Creationism .

The "inflationary universe." The leading idea is called the "inflationary universe" model. The key assumption of this model is that just before the Big Bang, space was filled with an unstable form of energy, whose nature is not yet known. At some instant, this energy was transformed into the fundamental particles from which arose all the matter we observe today. That instant marks what we call the Big Bang. www.cfa.harvard.edu...

I go way beyond that - I go beyond energy.

What you quoted is the transformation of energy into matter - E = mc2.

Now up to you to decide what or who is the source of energy.

To me, there's only one logical answer.

Hence the question to atheists and evolutionists:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

originally posted by: edmc^2
There's a question that had been asked around. But somehow, it's baffling why smart thinking people are unable to give a straight answer.
They go round and round explaining how stuffs work and how science work but never giving an answer. Sometimes they say the question doesn't make sense. Some say we don't know the answer. But some protest that it's a leading question. But really, are they being honest as to what they know or is it that they don't want to admit the obvious?

Well let's see where you stand.

But first let me please state this scientific and incontrovertible fact:

Everything that has a beginning has a cause.

So, what's the answer to this simple question:

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

What say you?

Yes,

You just gave it one.

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If something exists, it had a beginning.

If something exists, there was a time that it did not exist.

Infinity is an impossibility.

You would have to first prove there is a finite number of things. Until that is proven you could never assume there was ever a time prior to a thing.

originally posted by: Idreamofme
a reply to: edmc^2

Got an easier one, but no less unsolvable.

"What came first the chicken or the egg"?

Hint: No one knows the answer no matter how smart they sound.

Easy question to answer, Hydrogen came first. The question tries to establish a single point in time and there is no single point other than the singularity. You might as well ask what came first at 9:03 this morning and either can be the answer depending if the chicken dropped an egg at exactly 9:03 or not.

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: ancientthunder
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

There is no/thing that has no cause, therefore no/thing has no beginning.

When you say "no/thing" do you mean the emptiness, the void - absolute no/thing?

The human mind cannot fathom the concept of nothing. No matter what you tell yourself.

Of course. How can you fathom nothing if there's nothing to fathom?

But was there really 'no/thing' to begin with?

I notice your quote is from Albert Einstein.

He admitted that the biggest blunder of his life was introducing the cosmological constant into the theory of relativity.

He had a hard time believing the universe wasn't static.

Realizing that everything in our universe had a beginning was troubling. To a lot of people.

Another point is that we really can’t define or know our beginning because it goes way beyond your birth

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If something exists, it had a beginning.

If something exists, there was a time that it did not exist.

Infinity is an impossibility.

You would have to first prove there is a finite number of things. Until that is proven you could never assume there was ever a time prior to a thing.

No.

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: edmc^2
...But first let me please state this scientific and incontrovertible fact:

What you have just said, is that you know little to nothing about 'science', and that you have some 'belief' that you need to feed/propagate.
Science does not deal in 'facts', it deals in 'tentative theories'.
Note the difference;

"New study of the brain shows that facts and beliefs are processed in exactly the same way."

www.newsweek.com...

Everything that has a beginning has a cause. If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

What say you?

First, I see no 'facts' offered, simply a syllogism.
Your premise that
"Everything that has a beginning has a cause."
must be accepted, whether true or not. (a problem with 'formal logic')
But it makes sense to me, I'm willing to tentatively equate the two.

Upon that 'valid statement, the next follows/asks;
"If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?"
Which would obviously be 'no', since 'cause' is equated with 'beginning', no one equal no other.

A is a function of B, no B = no A.

Causality is a refuted theory, as is 'beginnings' and ends', ultimately.
As is 'motion'.
As is 'time'... *__-

Nameless one, you're going deep on me here. I'm just stating the simple fact and the obvious.

originally posted by: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If you look at our universe it is basically within a bubble of laws, so how do we establish a beginning if there is no beginning outside of our universe? Can we suggest that the singularity of our universe is the beginning for us, but it is also part of infinite possibilities. In this case we can have a beginning due to the laws of our universe but the bigger picture has no beginning.

Maybe time, beginning etc is just a function of our little bubble floating inside of infinity...

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: ancientthunder
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

There is no/thing that has no cause, therefore no/thing has no beginning.

When you say "no/thing" do you mean the emptiness, the void - absolute no/thing?

The human mind cannot fathom the concept of nothing. No matter what you tell yourself.

Of course. How can you fathom nothing if there's nothing to fathom?

But was there really 'no/thing' to begin with?

I notice your quote is from Albert Einstein.

He admitted that the biggest blunder of his life was introducing the cosmological constant into the theory of relativity.

He had a hard time believing the universe wasn't static.

Realizing that everything in our universe had a beginning was troubling. To a lot of people.

Yup. I agree with you there my friend. Einstein's theory on relativity is questionable based on new findings and understanding.

Hence, math based theories are always suspect until proven to be true.

originally posted by: rockintitz

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

It is only an impossibility within our universe...I agree to that, but what is outside our universe? I suggest that time is a fundamental law of our universe, but lets say time is only within our universe, the impossible becomes probable.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: edmc^2


If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If you look at our universe it is basically within a bubble of laws, so how do we establish a beginning if there is no beginning outside of our universe? Can we suggest that the singularity of our universe is the beginning for us, but it is also part of infinite possibilities. In this case we can have a beginning due to the laws of our universe but the bigger picture has no beginning.

Maybe time, beginning etc is just a function of our little bubble floating inside of infinity...

In a roundabout way whether you're aware of it or not you gave part of the answer - infinity.

Question is - does infinity exist? If so then it must have no beginning.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: rockintitz

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

It is only an impossibility within our universe...I agree to that, but what is outside our universe? I suggest that time is a fundamental law of our universe, but lets say time is only within our universe, the impossible becomes probable.

And I say that's no different than invoking God, or a creator.

We can't know.

originally posted by: rockintitz

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: edmc^2

If something has no cause, does it have a beginning?

If something exists, it had a beginning.

If something exists, there was a time that it did not exist.

Infinity is an impossibility.

You would have to first prove there is a finite number of things. Until that is proven you could never assume there was ever a time prior to a thing.

No.

You need to prove that infinity as a concept is possible.

Which is impossible.

I don't have to prove infinity just because I was proofing the logic of your statement.

What you said requires proof of a finite number of things. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm pointing out that your logic didn't prove your premise.

originally posted by: Willtell
Another point is that we really can’t define or know our beginning because it goes way beyond your birth

of course, if there was 'no/thing' before our birth.

a reply to: edmc^2

Sometimes they say the question doesn't make sense.

I have options agree with this.

originally posted by: rockintitz
And I say that's no different than invoking God, or a creator.

We can't know.

There is a difference in whether there is intelligent design or not. Suggesting God means something beyond infinity since God would be the creator of that too...

originally posted by: Ksihkehe

I don't have to prove infinity just because I was proofing the logic of your statement.

What you said requires proof of a finite number of things. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I'm pointing out that your logic didn't prove your premise.

The problem is infinity suggests time is part of the equation, what do you have if there is no time?

a reply to: Xtrozero

You sound smart. how do you know hydrogen came first? Science book?