The right to offend and the right to be offended

a reply to: Kandinsky

I get where you are coming from, but your rules of being tactful were turned into a political issue and these days, those new rules are being used to define how we may or may not speak on just about every topic.

Speech has very much become a political topic and that's where we've gone now, and it's very much wrong to try to defend political correctness by simply boiling it down the way you have. Because when people start to talk about speech codes and other things and lumping in competing ideas such that one entire facet of an issue can't even be talked about and people can riot and be excused for it on the grounds that the speech in question is deemed "hateful" and "offensive" in the same way that picking on the fat kid is deemed hateful and offensive, then two very different things are being conflated for the purpose of abridging political speech and ideas.

I suppose it gives people a purpose, like a dog needs a bone.

I've been offended but always at things that genuinely wind me up. Even when I watch these videos on YouTube and see the people at protests being interviewed, no passion.

Lot's of...ummm, like...yeah, like you know, like...ummm, etc.

Very static, almost robotic - like a script. I suppose a lot of them are actors, some unintentional and some intentional. There's a fun game for us to play, try to spot the people who actually care about their cause.

Most probably don't...i reckon more people out there are protesting out of fear of being judged. They might call me this, think I'm that!

And so to avoid being judged you become judgemental as all hell. I've played two very different roles on ATS and both times was met with insult more than opposition. Interesting, people are just looking for something...that one, single thing that will convince them you're 1,000 other things to boot...and they're all over you.

Insulted beyond words, but having fun at the same time.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Kandinsky

I get where you are coming from, but your rules of being tactful were turned into a political issue and these days, those new rules are being used to define how we may or may not speak on just about every topic.

Speech has very much become a political topic and that's where we've gone now, and it's very much wrong to try to defend political correctness by simply boiling it down the way you have. Because when people start to talk about speech codes and other things and lumping in competing ideas such that one entire facet of an issue can't even be talked about and people can riot and be excused for it on the grounds that the speech in question is deemed "hateful" and "offensive" in the same way that picking on the fat kid is deemed hateful and offensive, then two very different things are being conflated for the purpose of abridging political speech and ideas.

It is rude to pick on the fat kid.

Yes.

But its doubly rude to think they are stupid!! that they are unaware that

they are the 'fat kid' is turning a blind eye and lying by omission helping the

situation?

a reply to: eletheia

Is it rude, though?

Seriously...who said it's rude, why? If I call a fat kid fat and he cries...what's really the problem there?

Maybe he needs a safe space? Maybe shaming others into a more healthy mindset is no different than trying to shame the ill-conceived racism or prejudice out of someone else.

It's ok to give a smoker health advice and tell them they're doing something silly, why not a fat person? Maybe the tough love isn't the problem, maybe the problem is people really not wanting to stop doing the things they enjoy despite how bad for them they are.

I think we got it all wrong...the only reason we have to believe that it's wrong to offend someone is because we're told it is. It's wrong to offend someone for some things, things the person has no control over.

It's wrong to offend somene of a different nationality or skin tone, it's wrong and a bit stupid, pointless. It is what is is and can't be changed...but obesity is a problem.

Obesity is as much a problem as this inherent notion that we should tiptoe around people for fear of offending them. Sorry, but fat kids need to at least try not to be fat...we're lazy. It's a cop out...we can't change it so best say nothing and allow it to continue...you can change it.

Fat can be changed.

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: jimmyx
I've heard it called "the empathy gene"...something that sociopaths lack....if one does not have an understanding of the personal suffering of others, then they are unable to understand how their words would harm them

That's a good point, jimmyx.

It might very well be, that we, as a society (or a species) are becoming more sociopathic in nature...or, perhaps, that our understanding of the nature of empathy has become deformed.

Online, the anonymity and lack of feedback, like facial expressions or body language, inhibits our sense of empathy, I think. That and cultural influences (i.e. how we see others behaving) and the use of the internet as a personal release valve, darn the consequences to the human on the receiving end.

There are major personality differences too. Some people can't understand how others take things "personally" because they don't experience that themselves.

Saying someone is "too sensitive" may mean that one is not sensitive enough themselves as to be aware of HOW to effectively communicate without burning down connections and such.

We tend to, as a culture, lean to ideas of "get tougher" "thicken your skin cry baby" and "it's not my fault you got your little feelings hurt" vs anti-bullying attempts and setting boundaries for personal interaction and responsibility. These get overrun by a culture of verbal violence.

My opinions only.

a reply to: HeathenJessie

If you are looking to "help" obese people, then studies show shaming them actually has the opposite effect more often than not.

In other words, you are helping them stay obese.

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: HeathenJessie

If you are looking to "help" obese people, then studies show shaming them actually has the opposite effect more often than not.

In other words, you are helping them stay obese.

Perhaps don't have to go all-out with the actual intention of shaming them but it shuldn't be skirted around or ignored or denied.

Parents' should push their children to be healthier and more active. They choose not to because it's less hassle.

a reply to: HeathenJessie

Oh I think pushing kids to be healthier is good parenting, and being healthy inside and out begins at home.

That is totally different than shaming someone for being fat.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: Hazardous1408

originally posted by: seeker1963

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: seeker1963

What made you think I was an Antifa supporter?

Just a generalization. The fact you seem so week that it is okay to punch someone because their words might offend you?

If someone said something untoward about your closest family member would you consider yourself weak if you kicked their ass???

Some would call that valour.

I would consider myself weak if I fell into their trap!

Sorry, but I am an old man, and those days of testosterone, alcohol fueled days of aggression have taken a back seat to WISDOM and looking back at the foolishness of those days of my youth?

Hopefully someday you will get there!

You can insult me all you want....

I don't care if you are an old man! You insult my wife in any manner; it's just something I will not tolerate. Words have consequences that you might not like.

You play so tough on the internet, where your insults have no consequences.

It's really weird it's like the new net manner generation no matter their age seems it's perfectly ok to insult people and it's their right to say anything as it's free speech



Treat others as you expect to be treated

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: thesaneone

Especially when troubled teenagers commit suicide because of the bullying online.

The key word is troubled teens not bullying.

I'll give you an example of how shaming someone can be effective.

When I was a kid we weren't so wrapped in cotton wool and spoiled. In the primary school I attended I used to hate PE (physical exercise or education? hmmm) because I was lazy and somewhat anti-social.

Every week I'd arrive at school and claim I couldn't participate, I'd forgotten my PE kit again.

So one week my teacher said to me...Mr, if you don't bring your kit nest week I promise I'll make you do it in your underwear.

Now I was about 7 or 8 years old...typical, spoilt kid who thought he was clever. I thought it's just a scare tactic they can't do that. Next week I went to school as always, with my PE kit already in my bag...it was ALWAYS in my bag.

I told the teacher I'd no kit and was instructed to strip down to my underwear. The other kids laughed...thinking I was even smarter I then told him I actually did have my kit...he told me to strip to my underwear.

I opened my bag and showed him my kit...strip to your underwear. So I did..and was humiliated. I was pretty brash and cocky, though, so I pulled it off. It was still shameful, embarassing...can you imagine?

I didn't even cry...it because a funny thing I was remembered for at school..people still talk about it to this day.

Needless to say I 'remembered' my PE kit every week, even into secondary school I always took part in PE, I became more athletic and healthier as a result.

Conclusion - I was a dick, the teacher had some nuts...teacher wins, flawless victory!

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: HeathenJessie

If you are looking to "help" obese people, then studies show shaming them actually has the opposite effect more often than not.

In other words, you are helping them stay obese.

And let's face it, no one would be so cruel to an obese person if they weren't so 'offended' by them. I think the same holds true for religion. People who are offended by religions that are different from their own are precisely the type of people that feel some need to retaliate for the 'offense they feel' and 'offend them back.'

a reply to: thesaneone

Perhaps but the bullies knew they were troubled and risked the consequence.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie


Obesity is as much a problem as this inherent notion that we should tiptoe around people for fear of offending them. Sorry, but fat kids need to at least try not to be fat...we're lazy. It's a cop out...we can't change it so best say nothing and allow it to continue...you can change it.

Fat can be changed.

Where as I totally agree with you in the situation of a fat 'adult' I cant blame a

fat 'kid' their parents are in control of their eating habits.

I blame the parents for fat children.


Slightly off topic, but in the same vein I have watched programmes of hugely

overweight people that are unable to get out of bed.

How do they get so fat? they cant get out of bed .... so someone else must be

responsible for their fat? lol!!

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: HeathenJessie

If you are looking to "help" obese people, then studies show shaming them actually has the opposite effect more often than not.

In other words, you are helping them stay obese.

And let's face it, no one would be so cruel to an obese person if they weren't so 'offended' by them. I think the same holds true for religion. People who are offended by religions that are different from their own are precisely the type of people that feel some need to retaliate for the 'offense they feel' and 'offend them back.'

I wouldn't go as far as to call an obese person offensive. It's their life, if it's someone I care about I might attempt to subtly suggest they make some changes not to shame or offend them but because I don't want to see them suffer from ill health.

Religious people on the other hand...any religion is offensive to all of humanity. We should actively work to try and rid the world of religion. We should be doing our best to stop that junk from spreading like the virus it is.

Religious ought to offend all of humanity, and until it finally does we're stuck with it, which is a shame.

a reply to: DBCowboy

As you can see ("you have the right to get punched in the mouth"), most do not know what freedom of speech is, and why it is sacred. Some equate it with the first amendment ("The 1st Amendment only applies to government restricting speech") without understanding why it is protected by the first amendment and UN human rights codes in the first place. They have no clue, and it is this ignorance that will see it swallowed whole.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: HeathenJessie


Obesity is as much a problem as this inherent notion that we should tiptoe around people for fear of offending them. Sorry, but fat kids need to at least try not to be fat...we're lazy. It's a cop out...we can't change it so best say nothing and allow it to continue...you can change it.

Fat can be changed.

Where as I totally agree with you in the situation of a fat 'adult' I cant blame a

fat 'kid' their parents are in control of their eating habits.

I blame the parents for fat children.


Slightly off topic, but in the same vein I have watched programmes of hugely

overweight people that are unable to get out of bed.

How do they get so fat? they cant get out of bed .... so someone else must be

responsible for their fat?

lol!!

you're absolutely right, it's more the parents and the people around them that need shaming.

I reckon folk are able to get that fat for that very reason, instead of being given honest feedback by the people who are supposed to care - they're given validation.

My little cousin was wild at school, proper wild... uncontrollable. He got suspended a number of times from primary school! Like 10 years old, that's how nuts he was.

The funny thing is, my aunt, his mother...is a bit soft in the head. If he got into trouble she'd promise him things to behave....for example. If she got negative reports from the teachers for a day or two she'd say to him - if you behave tomorrow I'll buy you a toy after school! Or I'll take you to macdonalds!

Which is, in a round-a-bout way, rewarding him for misbehaving, she taught him a pattern and it continued into adulthood.

He'll buy himself clothes before he'll buy his kids food.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

LOL another one that do not understand the point of my post. Maybe I should have clarified. Oh well.

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: AboveBoard
a reply to: HeathenJessie

If you are looking to "help" obese people, then studies show shaming them actually has the opposite effect more often than not.

In other words, you are helping them stay obese.

And let's face it, no one would be so cruel to an obese person if they weren't so 'offended' by them. I think the same holds true for religion. People who are offended by religions that are different from their own are precisely the type of people that feel some need to retaliate for the 'offense they feel' and 'offend them back.'

I wouldn't go as far as to call an obese person offensive. It's their life, if it's someone I care about I might attempt to subtly suggest they make some changes not to shame or offend them but because I don't want to see them suffer from ill health.

Religious people on the other hand...any religion is offensive to all of humanity. We should actively work to try and rid the world of religion. We should be doing our best to stop that junk from spreading like the virus it is.

Religious ought to offend all of humanity, and until it finally does we're stuck with it, which is a shame.

No one complaining about how easily offended people are wants to own it when they are offended. I get it. That would make them look like hypocrites.

ETA: I don't care what religions others subscribe to. I'm an atheist and it doesn't bother me, at all, that others are not.

There is a difference between being forthright, calling a spade a spade and deliberately phrasing your words to cause hurt.

Trouble is, some folks just cant see that distinction and thus we have this idiotic pc culture that abhors truth.