The Time of the End - How Long Did it Last and Will it Last

I think there could be many things that could have been considered the "End of Days". The beast with seven heads is most likely the Roman Empire (Rome) and it describes the fall of Egypt under Roman rule.

The Great Flood is most likely the disintegration of the Ice sheets from the last Ice Age. Humanity back then would have been concentrated around the Meditteranean.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: RobertConrad
I believe some of those prophetic references to "peace" are actually about the state of being "right with God", which is the true peace.
I would certainly apply that to Jeremiah ch6, for example. The false prophets are failing to address the sins of the people, and allowing them to be complacent about their relationship with God. They say "You have peace with God", when it isn't true.
The reference in Ezekiel ch13 may carry both meanings at the same time; that is, Jerusalem has no peace with God and therefore has no prospect of external peace, because only God can defend them against invaders.

You are correct. Jehovah was sending his prophets to them telling them they were not at peace with God, and what did they do to them? They ran them out of town, and murdered them when they had the chance. That is why Jesus looked at Jerusalem while on earth and called her the killer of the prophets:

(Matthew 23:37) “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her. . .

He no doubt knew he was going to be included in that, as the Jewish Sanhedrin, and its priests together with the high priest gathered together as one with the Romans to murder him.

Today something similar will happen. The religious leaders certainly are not telling their followers they are not at peace with God. And the world's rulers are not either. They will create a false peace, among their false prophets, just as in Jeremiah's day.

But there is no peace. It is just a facade.

a reply to: RobertConrad

In my studies of the Apocalypse in the Bible I have come across several time periods in prophesy to note here.

1. The longest one is in Hosea 6-2. The 3 days prophesy in the presence of the Lord. The point of the book of Hosea was that all of Israel was to face a long term curse. Followed by the "day of Jezreel". Israel was to be destroyed for 2 days and restored for the 3rd. Figuring it all out involves the curse mentioned in Malachi 4 but to simplify it all it appears that in killing John the Baptist the first century Jews managed to trigger the curse part of Hosea 6-2. And with 2nd Peter 3-8 and Psalms 90 indicating those days as being 1000 year periods of time I would postulate this.

The first time period of the Apocalypse started in the 20's AD with the death of John the Baptist. It's 2000 years long.

2. The 2nd period of time would be the "generation" of Matthew 24. Based on the information provided there we have a problem. The nation of Israel reestablished itself May 15th 1948. Per the fig tree parable we have to postulate that was an end time event. A leaf of the fig tree. And while it's not supposed to be possible to figure out the exact moment the generation started we can say this based on Matthew 24.

The generation started between the end of World War 2 and the rebirth of Israel. Some time between August of 1945 and May of 1948. The generation is getting up to around 69 to 72 years old.

3. The 3rd period of time is the 7 year agreement of Daniel 9. Not currently active but my best guess puts it starting at 2021 at the absolute latest possible and still fit in the "generation" of Matthew 24.

4. The 3 and 1/2 years of the Antichrist. At the absolute latest? Starting in 2024.

And the Day of Jezreel/the thousand year rule of the saints should start no later than May of 2028.

a reply to: RobertConrad

The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course. Remember that scripture quoted in 2 Peter 3. Peter referred to the end of the world in Noah's day. But the earth still exists. The heavens and earth at that time were destroyed in a symbolic sense, in that the governmental structure and the wicked people were done away with. Armageddon is not the end of the literal earth. But the end of present wicked society. That the end (at Armageddon) refers, not to the literal earth, but to human society we know for we are told: (1 John 2:17) . . .Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever. The world and its desire is passing away. Obviously this is referring to the end of wicked humankind just as in Noah's day: (2 Peter 3:5, 6) . . .For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. Notice the heavens and the earth were destroyed, the "world" of that time. Wicked human society. The same is true of the coming day when God will destroy this wicked world by fire: (2 Peter 3:7) . . .But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. That the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth: (Psalm 37:11) . . .But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:29) . . .The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it. I gave you a start there of something to think about. I could answer the rest of your questions. Well maybe I will just briefly. The king who comes to sit on David's throne is Jesus Christ. He sat down on that throne in 1914 when he began to rule in heaven. His rulership will never be taken away, and he will reign as king in heaven over the earth for a thousand years after Armageddon.

You stated “The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course.” And again you state “That the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth:”

I do not understand the scriptures teaching that premise. 2nd Peter clearly agrees with Isaiah in that the entire earth will be dissolved and the universe will like wise be destroyed. (2nd Peter 3:10-13) and (Isaiah 24:19,20 and Isaiah 34:4)

You wrote “the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth”

I interpret my copy of scriptures as meaning this to be this present terrestrial earth. While it is the doctrine of James that the righteous shall inherit the earth, it is not this earth that the righteous inherit but the new heaven and earth that both Isaiah and Revelation declare. (Isaiah 65: 17-19) and (Revelation 21:1-5) and (Revelation 3:12) –

You also wrote “And the dead that are sleeping will be resurrected back to life. The righteous to live, and wicked who did not know God, to learn the truth and chose whether to serve him or not.”

This is some what rabbinic philosophy but not altogether rabbinic philosophy. There is no unconsciousness in the doctrine of Jesus and there is but one death of the terrestrial man. (Hebrews 9:27) - If a terrestrial resurrection (which is Judaic philosophy) should be the case, then we would have two deaths of the terrestrial body and Hebrews 9:27 would not be true. If a person is resurrected from the terrestrial earth and united with his/her spirit, that soul would have to die once again and that is not taught in the Nazarene concept.

Would you tell me where you learned this doctrine and what MSS are you using?

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: RobertConrad

The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course. Remember that scripture quoted in 2 Peter 3. Peter referred to the end of the world in Noah's day. But the earth still exists. The heavens and earth at that time were destroyed in a symbolic sense, in that the governmental structure and the wicked people were done away with. Armageddon is not the end of the literal earth. But the end of present wicked society. That the end (at Armageddon) refers, not to the literal earth, but to human society we know for we are told: (1 John 2:17) . . .Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever. The world and its desire is passing away. Obviously this is referring to the end of wicked humankind just as in Noah's day: (2 Peter 3:5, 6) . . .For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. Notice the heavens and the earth were destroyed, the "world" of that time. Wicked human society. The same is true of the coming day when God will destroy this wicked world by fire: (2 Peter 3:7) . . .But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people. That the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth: (Psalm 37:11) . . .But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. (Psalm 37:29) . . .The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it. I gave you a start there of something to think about. I could answer the rest of your questions. Well maybe I will just briefly. The king who comes to sit on David's throne is Jesus Christ. He sat down on that throne in 1914 when he began to rule in heaven. His rulership will never be taken away, and he will reign as king in heaven over the earth for a thousand years after Armageddon.

You stated “The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course.” And again you state “That the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth:”

I do not understand the scriptures teaching that premise. 2nd Peter clearly agrees with Isaiah in that the entire earth will be dissolved and the universe will like wise be destroyed. (2nd Peter 3:10-13) and (Isaiah 24:19,20 and Isaiah 34:4)

You wrote “the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth”

I interpret my copy of scriptures as meaning this to be this present terrestrial earth. While it is the doctrine of James that the righteous shall inherit the earth, it is not this earth that the righteous inherit but the new heaven and earth that both Isaiah and Revelation declare. (Isaiah 65: 17-19) and (Revelation 21:1-5) and (Revelation 3:12) –

You also wrote “And the dead that are sleeping will be resurrected back to life. The righteous to live, and wicked who did not know God, to learn the truth and chose whether to serve him or not.”

This is some what rabbinic philosophy but not altogether rabbinic philosophy. There is no unconsciousness in the doctrine of Jesus and there is but one death of the terrestrial man. (Hebrews 9:27) - If a terrestrial resurrection (which is Judaic philosophy) should be the case, then we would have two deaths of the terrestrial body and Hebrews 9:27 would not be true. If a person is resurrected from the terrestrial earth and united with his/her spirit, that soul would have to die once again and that is not taught in the Nazarene concept.

Would you tell me where you learned this doctrine and what MSS are you using?

I understand you think that Peter is referring to the literal heaven and earth in the Scripture referenced in 2 Peter 3. But if you really paid attention, you would know that is not the case. And I already explained it to you. It seems you didn't read it, or did not understand it. But it is very simple.

The heavens and earth are symbolic and refer to humankind. The heavens, the ruling class, and the earth, the common people.

Notice how Peter first tell us that the heavens and earth in Noah's day were done away with by the Deluge, and that world was destroyed by water:

(2 Peter 3:5, 6) For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.

Notice that right after Peter said that the heavens and earth in Noah's day was destroyed by water, he shows us that the heavens and earth today are going to be destroyed by fire:

(2 Peter 3:7) . . .But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

If the literal heaven and earth still existed after the flood of Noah's day. It is obvious that the literal heaven and earth will still exist after the coming destruction of the ungodly people in our day.

This is also consistent with Biblical references that state the earth will remain forever (the literal earth):

(Psalm 104:5) He has established the earth on its foundations; It will not be moved from its place forever and ever.

(Ecclesiastes 1:4) A generation is going, and a generation is coming, But the earth remains forever.

The new heavens and new earth you are referring to in prophecy are a new kingdom government and a righteous human society.

That is why during the coming revelation of Jesus with his holy angels, when he sits down to separate the people as sheep and goats the earth is going to be dissolved and the works in it are discovered:

(2 Peter 3:10) . . .But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

That is Jehovah will expose mankind and the governments for what they are. And even the ruling officials and world leaders at that time will be trying to hid in the mountains, telling them to fall over and hide themselves from God and the judgement they receive:

(Revelation 6:15-17) . . .Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

a reply to: RobertConrad

I understand you think that Peter is referring to the literal heaven and earth in the Scripture referenced in 2 Peter 3. But if you really paid attention, you would know that is not the case. And I already explained it to you. It seems you didn't read it, or did not understand it. But it is very simple.

It is very simple if we believe as the scriptures teach with out our own philosophy.

You have said

“The heavens and earth are symbolic and refer to humankind. The heavens, the ruling class, and the earth, the common people. “

I cannot buy into that philosophy at all. It makes no sense that the author of Peter would write a letter of confusion such as that.

You also insist but have not included Isaiah in this philosophy – Are both symbolic?
“The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course.” And again you state “ the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth:”

2nd Peter clearly agrees with Isaiah in that the entire earth will be dissolved and the universe will like wise be destroyed. (2nd Peter 3:10-13) and (Isaiah 24:19,20 and Isaiah 34:4)

You wrote “the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth”

How do you explain (Isaiah 65: 17-19) and (Revelation 21:1-5) and (Revelation 3:12) – Is this also symbolic?

I cannot understand how these letters are all symbolic as you claim.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: RobertConrad

I understand you think that Peter is referring to the literal heaven and earth in the Scripture referenced in 2 Peter 3. But if you really paid attention, you would know that is not the case. And I already explained it to you. It seems you didn't read it, or did not understand it. But it is very simple.

It is very simple if we believe as the scriptures teach with out our own philosophy.

You have said

“The heavens and earth are symbolic and refer to humankind. The heavens, the ruling class, and the earth, the common people. “

I cannot buy into that philosophy at all. It makes no sense that the author of Peter would write a letter of confusion such as that.

You also insist but have not included Isaiah in this philosophy – Are both symbolic?
“The end refers to this system of things. Not of this earth of course.” And again you state “ the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth:”

2nd Peter clearly agrees with Isaiah in that the entire earth will be dissolved and the universe will like wise be destroyed. (2nd Peter 3:10-13) and (Isaiah 24:19,20 and Isaiah 34:4)

You wrote “the literal earth will not pass away we know for God promises that good, meek, righteous people will live forever on earth”

How do you explain (Isaiah 65: 17-19) and (Revelation 21:1-5) and (Revelation 3:12) – Is this also symbolic?

I cannot understand how these letters are all symbolic as you claim.

It appears you did not read the response.

I did not interpret or make a spin on any scripture. Just quoted things for you.

But I can understand how strongly entrenched things can be hard to break from. So I will try one more time. Peter tells us that the heavens and earth before the flood were destroyed by water:

(2 Peter 3:5, 6)  For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.

As it states here, "they deliberately" ignore the fact that the heavens and earth in Noah's time were destroyed by the flood.

How is it then that the literal heaven and earth are still here? Am I the one spinning the scripture? Or just quoting scripture?

He then goes on to compare our days with those of Noah stating:

(2 Peter 3:7) . . .But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

So we see that the "heavens and the earth" that NOW exist are reserved for fire.

In the former case the heavens and earth were obviously symbolic of wicked mankind. Yet in the second case all the sudden they are literal?

That makes no sense. No, I am not the one spinning this here.

Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21 also both refer to people and not the literal earth which will remain forever according to God's own word:

(Psalm 104:5) He has established the earth on its foundations; It will not be moved from its place forever and ever.

(Isaiah 45:18) . . .For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.


(Isaiah 65:17) . . .For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind,. . .


The initial fulfillment of Isaiah 65:17 was when the Jews were repatriated from their exile in Babylon.

“In Isa. lxv, 17, a new heaven and a new earth signify a new government, new kingdom, new people.” - M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1891, Vol. IV, p. 122)

Even Issac Newton understood this to be the case.


In one of his works, an incomplete treatise he states very clearly and correctly:

The whole world natural consisting of heaven & earth signifies [illeg] whole world politique consisting of thrones & people or so much of it as if [illeg] [illeg] in the prophesy. & the things in that world signify the analogous [illeg] in this. For the heaven[illeg] the things therein signify Thrones & dignities & those that enjoy [illeg] the earth with the things therein the inferior people. Whence [illeg] towards heaven & descending to the earth is put for rising [illeg] in honour & power. Rising out of the earth or waters [illeg] into them, for the rising to any dominion or dignity out of the inferior state of people, [illeg] the same into that inferior state. Descending to the lower [illeg] Hades or Hell for descending to a very low condition. Moving from one place [illeg] Moving from one place [illeg] translation from one office dignity or dominion to another [illeg] quakes & the shaking of heaven & earth for the shaking of [illeg] as to overthrow them: the creating a heaven & earth & their passing away (or which is all one the beginning & [illeg] [illeg] away of the kingdom or kingdoms signified thereby. 2. Now in heaven the Sun & Moon are by Interpret[illeg] put for the persons of Kings & Queens, but in sacred Proph[illeg] not single persons the sun is put for the whole species & [illeg] in the kingdom or kingdoms of the World politique, sh[illeg] regall power & glory; the Moon for the body of the common people considered as the Kings wife or (if the people be described by another type) for the body of the Priests;; the stars for subordinate Kings Princes & great men, or for Bishops & Rulers of the people [illeg] God when the Sun is Christ; Light for the glory judgment truth [illeg] knowledge wherewith great men shine & illuminate others

Source:
Issac Newton's Incomplete Treatises on Prophecy

The new heavens in Revelation 21:3, 4 is God's government in Jesus' hands, as opposed to the current heavens, the ruling elite which now rule mankind. That is what the "tent of God is."

In the wilderness Jehovah had Moses make the tabernacle with its holy and most holy and a curtain in between them. And there the high priest would enter once a year to offer sacrifice once for sins of himself, and then for all the people.

Now that tent in the wilderness was but a type, the reality is in heaven, and Jesus entered into the real Holy of Holies when after resurrected as a spirit entered into the presence of Jehovah himself, to offer his sin offering, the blood he shed as a perfect man, to his father once and for all times.

And the oath Jehovah made concerning him was made more sure. So that Jesus would rule as king over God's government. And Jesus made that same oath with his followers, the apostles and the other 144,000 to rule with him as kings and priests in heaven over the earth for the 1,000 year reign.

So the tent is God's heavenly government of Jesus Christ and the 144,000 anointed who rule in heaven with him, the new heavens, or government that will rule over all mankind.

The new earth will be a righteous human society, void of all corruption and wickedness.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
.............
Thus "7" is always a number associated with God.
.............

This is incorrect.The number 7 is not always associated with God that is a conflation to fit religious rhetoric .The closest that comes to being Truth is the gematria for the name Gad(the 7th son Of Jacob/Israel) is 7 and the name Gad pronunciation in English sounds like God.

What you are proposing is the banality of all numerology..believing the numbers are symbolic then placing them in literal context to give it meaning to fit your theology.God is not the number 7.Not one time in all of scriptures does it ever allude to that conflation.Technically the closest to symbolic number for the name of "God" is with gematria which the word Elohim is 86. and Yahweh is 543.If you believe Jesus is God his name (Iesous) in Greek isopphy is 888..not 777 as I have seen you quote many times.In Hebrew gematria Yahoshua(English transliteration) Hamashiach(the messiah) is 760.

In other words religious math(numerology) is just a conflation and meaningless religious rhetoric.However the gematria(letters are numbers) patterns in the names of Israel(the patriarchs) and the creator God and Yahoshua are true and undeniable.

a reply to: Rex282
I am not interested in gematria.
Every time the number comes up in the Bible it represents something holy, related to God.
Hence Creation taking seven days, seven days before circumcision, "the seven spirits" in Revelation, and so on.
And each time the number "70" comes up (including the legendary translators of the Septuagint) the meaning I suggested can be applied.
I offer those interpretations of the numbers because they work, each time.


P.S. Although I'm comfortable with the "777" concept, I'm not sure that I've referred to it even once on these boards. It isn't in the "666" thread, which would have been the most obvious place. You may have gone out on a limb with that statement.

There are so many nuances to 1914

I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.

Woodrow Wilson - 28th President of the United States from 1913 to 1921.

So yeah 1914 was a marked year in more ways than one.