Getaway Driver Arrested After 3 Suspects are Shot to Death

a reply to: Irishhaf

The 930 is an awesome firearm. Jerry Miculek doesn't put his name on a lot of products.



I finally settled on a Benelli M2 Field ... mostly because I'm a left-handed shooter. It takes a lot of work to get good with a shotgun. I have fired thousands and thousands of rounds through what I've owned, but I've never really felt the same confidence I've developed with my rifles. At least most shotgun ammo is cheap.

You won't find a loaded shotgun in my house either. They're the most dangerous (common class) firearm IMNSHO.

a reply to: Aazadan

How many shoot-outs have you been in, since you speak from such experience.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Aazadan

How many shoot-outs have you been in, since you speak from such experience.

0, but I have been shot at on several occasions. I've also been on the receiving end of 3 home invasions, and 2 more attempted.

Guess they ain't out living those red roses.

a reply to: Aazadan

So you've been in zero shoot-outs but have the audacity to dictate how people should react.

Yeah.

a reply to: Snarl

A quick exchange of words should have been a chance to resolve it.

How many homeowners in that area are likely to be armed? Is it possible they thought they could steam in and threaten the occupants?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Also most people do not have a trauma bag in the house, which is what you would need to stabilize someone that had multiple GSW to the chest.

Then maybe that should be a requirement for gun ownership.

Sure no problem.. call a constitutional convention and have the second adjusted... easy peasy.

Most lawyers I have known and most cops I have known advise people that the perps rights ended the moment they came at you with ill intent... you know that goofy holywood saying... dont start none... wont be none.

Dont break into homes, your risk of dying in a shootout drops an amazing amount.

I am sick and tired of people trying to place the blame on law abiding citizens... not the criminal.

Also again back to law... just like with cops in Oklahoma you can empty your gun into a criminal in that situation, and your odds of being prosecuted are very small... now if you reload, or grab another gun then that is intent and they will prosecute.

Was a court case a few years back in Oklahoma, pharmacy had been hit a couple times, clerk got a gun... they came back to pull another armed robbery... clerk fought back emptied his gun at the criminals... (at this point he was within his right to self defense) but he reloaded and double tapped one of the criminals.. the clerk is now rightfully in jail.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Aazadan

So you've been in zero shoot-outs but have the audacity to dictate how people should react.

Yeah.

I've been shot at. I simply haven't shot back, that goes against my personal beliefs (which is why I don't own a gun). I know what it's like when people are attacking you. Losing your cool and running on adrenaline is not a good way to handle such situations.

originally posted by: Kester
a reply to: Snarl

A quick exchange of words should have been a chance to resolve it.

How many homeowners in that area are likely to be armed? Is it possible they thought they could steam in and threaten the occupants?

In broken Arrow... if they do not have a criminal record probably 95%+ will have a gun in the home... any male and a good number of the females has a high chance of being proficient in fire arm use as well from hunting and range time.

a reply to: Kester

How does one manage their expectations in the heat of the moment? You got people invading your house all masked-up and gloved. Me? I'm just gonna start killin' 'em. I guess somebody else might have yelled, "Stop!! Get down on the floor!!" I wouldn't do that ... and I certainly wouldn't try to talk to multiple intruders.

I don't know what the percentages of armed households there are in Oklahoma, but I'd guess that percentage would be fairly high. Almost everyone in America has some kind of firearm in their house unless you're just in an area that gave up on their common-sense.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Sure no problem.. call a constitutional convention and have the second adjusted... easy peasy.

That wouldn't be required. Just make people take the appropriate safety classes.

Most lawyers I have known and most cops I have known advise people that the perps rights ended the moment they came at you with ill intent... you know that goofy holywood saying... dont start none... wont be none.

But like you said, that changes once the person goes down. Reloading is one example of showing intent, but there are others. For example, a guy here on ATS a couple years ago in a thread similar to this one, bragged about how someone broke into his home at night, and how he got to kill them. Two shotgun blasts aimed at the ground, followed by the "warning shot" at the ceiling once they were dead. Then he called the cops, and used that story.

That type of action (whether it was made up or factual) is wrong.

a reply to: Snarl

I read about this a couple days ago I believe. Don't be a criminal is the overwhelming thought for me...

As far as home defense...and AR is just fine if you have no kids, close neighbors or a poured concrete built home. Outside of that you'll have possibly dead neighbors and kids.

I always go with pistol or shotgun. Low velocity frangible rounds preferably.

a reply to: Aazadan

So you want people to have first responder training to own a fire arm?

You see no problem removing responsibility from the criminal and placing it all on the law abiding citizen... That is a problem for me.

I have seen this tactic off and on over the years and it irritates me a ton, the left (not saying you, just in general) has tried repeatedly to ban firearms and quite often fail... so usually step two will be raise taxes on ammo to make it to expensive to shoot... or force homeowners to get an extra insurance policy in case they shoot someone breaking into their home, or something to that effect.

If you do not break into a home... your chances of being shot by a homeowner drops an amazing amount...

While I think everyone should have some sort of extra first aid training... making it mandatory to exercise a constitutional right... no... no way.

a reply to: Snarl

At 0:52 they say fired after a quick exchange of words. They did try to talk to their invaders. Clearly the conversation was unsatisfactory. I'm guessing the invaders thought they could rush them.

Personally my intuition and commen sense tells me my threat level has increased, so I'm back to sleeping with my weapon.

I also have to say, the whole "not fair" argument one of the criminals dad was using....pathetic.

Maybe his son should have been fair and sent the homeowner a notice of intent to rob instead of unfairly breaking in and taking him by surprise with 2 friends. 3 on 1...hardly seems fair...but the homeowner equalized the "fairness" with choice of firearm.

No, reloading doesn't show "intent", it is reflective of good training. When I shoot, even if I don't have a loaded mag ready, I still will perform the action of "reloading". Muscle memory is a vital component of firearms competency.

Firing at a target which no longer presents a threat shows ill intent.

I could pull scores and scores of examples of incidents where a careless homeowner faces charges, both criminal and civil for an errant bullet.

Every bullet has a lawyer attached. If someone can't comprehend that prior to them purchasing a firearm, ammunition, and employing that weapon for home or personal defense, then they absolutely deserve to lose everything they own and serve prison time for a mistake.

You can have either Liberty or Security, not both. Liberty requires one to have common sense and personal responsibility, which the ruling class in the United States have tried their best to breed out of the population for the last 50+ years.

As for me and mine, I choose Liberty.

Since some of the dead criminals were under 18 there parents could be sued by the homeowner for damages done and distress to the homeowner

In my state parents are responsible for the actions of there kids under 18.

Since many underage criminals get off with just a slap on there hands suing the parents in my state will cause the parents to keep better control of there kids.
Ether that or the parents disown the kids and then the kids end up in juvenile jail and off the street.

As a EMT i would have no problem body bagging a criminal over body bagging a victim.

i have had to care for more victims then criminals and criminals would not want to be treated by me as i would not care about there pain.

nwever mind

The victim didn`t deprive the thugs of any of their rights, what rights did he deprive them of?

The right to a fair trial? the victim isn`t a judge or an attorney and has no authority or obligation to ensure that criminals receive a fair trial.

the right to life? the thugs deprived themselves of the right to life when they chose to invade someone`s home and bring knives to a gun fight.

maybe if grandpa spent more time making sure junior walked the straight and narrow path of a law abiding citizens,junior wouldn't have got his head blown off in a armed home invasion robbery.

this isn`t about fair or unfair, right or wrong it`s about 3 junior thugs in training who won`t be victimizing anymore law abiding citizens and that`s all that matters.

when you chose to embark on a criminal career you have accepted all the job hazards that go with that choice.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

Ok, true enough I am no expert but grew up shooting .22, and did trap shooting as well as fired a few military rifles in cadets(FN..of course much heavier hitting than .223)
My father was a gunsmith in his later years so I'm not completely ignorant.
In a wall there is alot more empty space than studs..every 16" is a stud..the rest more or less empty.
Point taken on how a .223 fragments when it hits something solid-ish.
I just figure besides all that a long gun is a bit harder to wield in a hallway or close quarters in general..to me a handgun makes more sense??..then again I am admittedly no expert.
I have 0 problem with someone defending themselves in their home.