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The God of Hebrews, the God of the Old Testament
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The God of Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, the same God that his hearers had always been worshipping.
For most of the last two thousand years, it would not have been necessary to say so.
It was central to the Church’s understanding of the Bible, that the relation between God and his people is a continuous history, beginning with Abraham and coming to a climax with Jesus Christ.
One and the same God, from Genesis to Revelation.
This continuity seems to be coming under question again.
And yet it can be demonstrated from the words of the New Testament, including the words of Jesus himself.
I’ve done this previously from the four gospels and from Acts, but everything we find in the epistle to the Hebrews leads to the same conclusion.
What is the opening statement of this epistle?
“God spoke to our fathers through the prophets” (ch1 v1).
Immediately, then, the writer does two very important things.
He identifies the words of the Old Testament God as the words of his own God; “He spoke through the prophets”.
And he identifies the people of the Old Testament God as the people of his own God; “He spoke to our fathers”.
In fact the whole of the argument of this letter rests on those two points. The writer cannot make his case without them.
Before he goes much further, he also begins to identify the deeds of the Old Testament God as the deeds of his own God; “He created the world” (v2).
These points can be followed through the rest of the letter.
The argument of the first two chapters is based on quoting the statements of the Psalms as evidence for the dignity and authority of the Son.
When the writer says “The message declared by angels was valid and every transgression and or disobedience received a just retribution”(ch2 v2), he is endorsing the Law of Moses as a law established by his own God.
When he is explaining why the Son needed to share in our humanity, he sums up his case in the words “It is not with angels that he is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham” (ch2 v16), even though his line of argument might have led more naturally to “descendants of Adam”.
He describes Moses as a faithful steward in “God’s house”, and claims for Christ the authority of a son and heir over the same house (ch3 vv1-6).
The argument about the “sabbath rest” (ch3) is based on quoting Psalm 95 as the voice of the Holy Spirit. He comes to the conclusion that the sabbath rest promised in the psalm “remains for the people of God” (ch4 v9). In other words, the Israelites who first heard the psalm, and his own Christian readers, are both[, in their own times, participant members of God’s people; that is the one people belonging to the one God.
When he begins to discuss the office of High Priest, he declares that this priest is “called by God”, and “appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God” (ch5 vv1-4). Then he quotes Psalm 110 as announcing the appointment of Christ to the same office. Thus he makes no distinction between the God who makes these Old Testament appointments and his own God.
Again, he cites the promise made to Abraham (ch6 v13) as a promise made by his own God, which he and his readers can claim for themselves.
In the seventh chapter, the writer dwells on the story of the old testament figure Melchizedek.
This figure is presented as representing Christ. His name and title identify him with “righteousness” and “peace”. The writer notices that he is “like the Son of God” in having no discernible beginning or end, so that he “continues for ever”.
He confirms the connection by applying to Jesus the words of the Psalm;
“Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek” (ch7 v17).
That, in itself, establishes a continuity between the two testaments.
Melchizedek received the submission of Abraham, by accepting the tithe from him.
By implication, he also received the submission of Levi, who was “in the loins of Abraham”.
The symbolic significance of this event is that the entire priestly system of the Old Testament subordinates itself to the priesthood of Christ.
In the next chapter, the writer quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy about a new covenant (ch8 vv8-12), claiming it as a promise made by his own God, and claiming it as fulfilled in the “better covenant” provided through Christ.
The relationship between the two covenants is that the old covenant foreshadows the new.
Thus the sanctuary established by Moses was erected, on God’s instructions, as a copy of the heavenly sanctuary into which Christ would enter (ch8 v5).
Similarly the sacrifices carried out in that sanctuary were symbolic of the death which Christ would experience (ch9).
In confirmation of this, the same sacrifice was also foreshadowed in the words of Psalm 40, “I have come to do thy will, O God” (ch10 v5).
Christ is the reality of God’s work, and the old priests were the imperfect copies which God provided for teaching purposes.
This also settles, by implication, the relative status of the two testaments.
The Old Testament system is a part, but a subordinate part, of the work of God which is made more complete and perfected in Christ.
For this reason, the writer is urging his readers not to abandon their grasp on what Christ is offering and fall back into the provisional and superseded system inherited from their fathers.
The climax of his argument is the rollcall of faith in ch11.
He lists the major figures of the Old Testament who were indomitable in their faith, and encourages his readers to follow their example.
But the key point here is that the faith of everyone named in this chapter was invested in the God of the Old Testament.
Yet the writer makes no distinction between the God who received their faith and obedience and his own God. He does not question their identity, but takes it for granted.
These people did not receive what they were promised, but only because the one God was postponing the inheritance until it could be shared by the followers of Christ;
“…since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect” (ch11 vv39-40).
For the sake of completeness, we might also notice the Old Testament quotations of the last couple of chapters.
It is “the Lord” who gives discipline (ch12 vv5-6) or provides help (ch13 v6), and these are taken to be statements about the Christian God.
And the same Christian God will be fulfilling the promise he made in the words of Haggai;
“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven” (ch12 v26).
In short, the argument of this letter rests so heavily on the continuity of God’s activity in the two testaments that it is not rationally possible to separate them out as the work of two different gods.
The Bible is understood as the single continuous history of the relation between the one God and his people.
For most of the last two thousand years, it would not have been necessary to say so.
It was central to the Church’s understanding of the Bible, that the relation between God and his people is a continuous history, beginning with Abraham and coming to a climax with Jesus Christ.
One and the same God, from Genesis to Revelation.
This continuity seems to be coming under question again.
And yet it can be demonstrated from the words of the New Testament, including the words of Jesus himself.
I’ve done this previously from the four gospels and from Acts, but everything we find in the epistle to the Hebrews leads to the same conclusion.
What is the opening statement of this epistle?
“God spoke to our fathers through the prophets” (ch1 v1).
Immediately, then, the writer does two very important things.
He identifies the words of the Old Testament God as the words of his own God; “He spoke through the prophets”.
And he identifies the people of the Old Testament God as the people of his own God; “He spoke to our fathers”.
In fact the whole of the argument of this letter rests on those two points. The writer cannot make his case without them.
Before he goes much further, he also begins to identify the deeds of the Old Testament God as the deeds of his own God; “He created the world” (v2).
These points can be followed through the rest of the letter.
The argument of the first two chapters is based on quoting the statements of the Psalms as evidence for the dignity and authority of the Son.
When the writer says “The message declared by angels was valid and every transgression and or disobedience received a just retribution”(ch2 v2), he is endorsing the Law of Moses as a law established by his own God.
When he is explaining why the Son needed to share in our humanity, he sums up his case in the words “It is not with angels that he is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham” (ch2 v16), even though his line of argument might have led more naturally to “descendants of Adam”.
He describes Moses as a faithful steward in “God’s house”, and claims for Christ the authority of a son and heir over the same house (ch3 vv1-6).
The argument about the “sabbath rest” (ch3) is based on quoting Psalm 95 as the voice of the Holy Spirit. He comes to the conclusion that the sabbath rest promised in the psalm “remains for the people of God” (ch4 v9). In other words, the Israelites who first heard the psalm, and his own Christian readers, are both[, in their own times, participant members of God’s people; that is the one people belonging to the one God.
When he begins to discuss the office of High Priest, he declares that this priest is “called by God”, and “appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God” (ch5 vv1-4). Then he quotes Psalm 110 as announcing the appointment of Christ to the same office. Thus he makes no distinction between the God who makes these Old Testament appointments and his own God.
Again, he cites the promise made to Abraham (ch6 v13) as a promise made by his own God, which he and his readers can claim for themselves.
In the seventh chapter, the writer dwells on the story of the old testament figure Melchizedek.
This figure is presented as representing Christ. His name and title identify him with “righteousness” and “peace”. The writer notices that he is “like the Son of God” in having no discernible beginning or end, so that he “continues for ever”.
He confirms the connection by applying to Jesus the words of the Psalm;
“Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek” (ch7 v17).
That, in itself, establishes a continuity between the two testaments.
Melchizedek received the submission of Abraham, by accepting the tithe from him.
By implication, he also received the submission of Levi, who was “in the loins of Abraham”.
The symbolic significance of this event is that the entire priestly system of the Old Testament subordinates itself to the priesthood of Christ.
In the next chapter, the writer quotes Jeremiah’s prophecy about a new covenant (ch8 vv8-12), claiming it as a promise made by his own God, and claiming it as fulfilled in the “better covenant” provided through Christ.
The relationship between the two covenants is that the old covenant foreshadows the new.
Thus the sanctuary established by Moses was erected, on God’s instructions, as a copy of the heavenly sanctuary into which Christ would enter (ch8 v5).
Similarly the sacrifices carried out in that sanctuary were symbolic of the death which Christ would experience (ch9).
In confirmation of this, the same sacrifice was also foreshadowed in the words of Psalm 40, “I have come to do thy will, O God” (ch10 v5).
Christ is the reality of God’s work, and the old priests were the imperfect copies which God provided for teaching purposes.
This also settles, by implication, the relative status of the two testaments.
The Old Testament system is a part, but a subordinate part, of the work of God which is made more complete and perfected in Christ.
For this reason, the writer is urging his readers not to abandon their grasp on what Christ is offering and fall back into the provisional and superseded system inherited from their fathers.
The climax of his argument is the rollcall of faith in ch11.
He lists the major figures of the Old Testament who were indomitable in their faith, and encourages his readers to follow their example.
But the key point here is that the faith of everyone named in this chapter was invested in the God of the Old Testament.
Yet the writer makes no distinction between the God who received their faith and obedience and his own God. He does not question their identity, but takes it for granted.
These people did not receive what they were promised, but only because the one God was postponing the inheritance until it could be shared by the followers of Christ;
“…since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect” (ch11 vv39-40).
For the sake of completeness, we might also notice the Old Testament quotations of the last couple of chapters.
It is “the Lord” who gives discipline (ch12 vv5-6) or provides help (ch13 v6), and these are taken to be statements about the Christian God.
And the same Christian God will be fulfilling the promise he made in the words of Haggai;
“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heaven” (ch12 v26).
In short, the argument of this letter rests so heavily on the continuity of God’s activity in the two testaments that it is not rationally possible to separate them out as the work of two different gods.
The Bible is understood as the single continuous history of the relation between the one God and his people.
edit on 7-4-2017 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Joneselius
Thank you. I've done similar threads for other portions of the New Testament- the words of Jesus, John's gospel in general, Acts. Nobody in those days was making a distinction.
Thank you. I've done similar threads for other portions of the New Testament- the words of Jesus, John's gospel in general, Acts. Nobody in those days was making a distinction.
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Joneselius
Thank you. I've done similar threads for other portions of the New Testament- the words of Jesus, John's gospel in general, Acts. Nobody in those days was making a distinction.
John's gospel is well known as the least accurate of the gospel's...and the most preached.
The continuity will be broken, even your bible claims that.
Jesus will not be returning in that form ever, no turning of the cheek will do.
And the God of the New Testament is clearly not a God at all, none of them are, and this will be proven, in the open, in front of the entire Universe.
If an original "God" ever existed, it was gone long ago, it is HIGH TIME , that people take a journey and start questioning, it is time EVERYONE questions just why it is not allowed to question.
Do not get in the way of herstory, it is coming up fast now.
We will unleash a barrage on the gates of the afraid ones that they tell everyone is "HEAVEN" unlike anything ever seen, and they will lose, WHY ?
It is sad that many Christians who mean so well will be swept up in trying to defend the Ultimate Oppressor Class of beings, but that being said a good many are realizing the entire paradigm is just not even close to what is reality.
Time is up, the end of the age is near, Christianity will not survive it, again according to some dude named JOHN.
John 8 is going to be a hard chapter for you to overcome with this line of reasoning. The problem you will run into on this topic is this verse
first:
John 8
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
He did not speak on his own. He was taught, rendering him relative to God the Father. The Old Testament God is none other than the Lord himself, identified clearly as the Son of God and not God himself. Here is where many of the New Testament writers confuse this, but not John. John gets to it in John 8 with this.
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.
Clearly, he is making a distinction between his Father and the Father of the Jews he was speaking to, who were the leaders of Israel in Yahweh's temple. He then fills us in.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
Again, he notes the Father they are from.
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Again, clues. He says their Father is the the Devil, or the Father of Israel. Again, Jesus is the Son of God, not God. Lord is the Son. Yahweh is the Son, baptized as a human and in a human body here. By baptized, I mean in the flesh, which is what baptism is. He had to be born a man, rendering himself as the scapegoat. Yahweh is the one giving up his person to become baptized as the sacrifice. Why?
6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.
7 Be fertile, and increase in number.
Spread over the earth, and increase.”
This is not all. Go back to John 8 where he calls the Father of Israel the Devil. We know who that Father is in Exodus 4.
22 Then tell Pharaoh, ‘This is what Yahweh says: Israel is my firstborn son. 23 I told you to let my son go so that he may worship me. But you refused to let him go. So now I’m going to kill your firstborn son.’” 24 Along the way they stopped for the night. Yahweh met Moses and tried to kill him.
Try as you might to get out of this, you can't. John 8 is clear. The Devil is the judge of man, or Yama from the Hindus. Jesus said NOT to judge, or you judge yourself, which is what he did.
Now to get this straight, there is a better way to think on this.
FATHER (GOD) is Elohim in Genesis 1
Adam is his firstborn Son, not Israel. Yahweh is the Son's Spirit. Above and Below. For each of us, we have a higher nature (MANU) and a lower nature (Yama). Yama is Yahweh, or brother to Manu. Father is the first and only single God of existence.
Father places himself in the Son.
John 17
4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Before creation, the Son, Mother and Father together as one. This is the Trimurti of Hinduism. The son is cast down into ignorance of himself. This is both Adam and Yahweh his Spirit. BOTH are cast into darkness, or the lower realm of the Triloka. The three realms are the Ganas, or Sattva (TRUTH), Rajas (Passion) and Tamas (Ignorance). Jesus was lowered down to the realm of mankind to raise us in the same process back to our higher nature (Father). By saying they were form 'their' Father the Devil, he was referring to their lower natures. Yahweh is that same lower nature of the Son of God to judge and rule in pride, which is what the leaders of Israel were doing. Yahweh is the scapegoat, or ruler of the underworld (YAMA). Jesus was overcoming his old nature by showing the Father before creation, or the unmanifest of the TAO.
Named things are not the Absolute Father. Yahweh was the 'god' of the underworld, where we are now. Now go back.
John 8
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Lifted up where? Sattva (TRUTH). The higher realm of the Triloka. You will never get this until you understand what it means to be enlightened from the Hindu understanding. Without this understanding, you are swirling around in empty and undefined space.
The Bible has source code called Sanskrit. Without it, no understanding of the three levels of heavenly realms is possible. Yahweh is not God. He is Yama, ruler of the underworld. NOTHING was made without the Son. In the end, the SON is all of it, including us. We are Adam, or where God rests. Yahweh had to release himself as the scapegoat. He prepares his host in Zechariah 3. See if I am right.
For us all, we must release our own scapegoat, or lower nature. In place of this, we inherit the Holy Spirit of God in Heaven. He does not rule from Earth. Yahweh didn't know this until he met the Father as a Man.
John 8
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
He did not speak on his own. He was taught, rendering him relative to God the Father. The Old Testament God is none other than the Lord himself, identified clearly as the Son of God and not God himself. Here is where many of the New Testament writers confuse this, but not John. John gets to it in John 8 with this.
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.
Clearly, he is making a distinction between his Father and the Father of the Jews he was speaking to, who were the leaders of Israel in Yahweh's temple. He then fills us in.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
Again, he notes the Father they are from.
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Again, clues. He says their Father is the the Devil, or the Father of Israel. Again, Jesus is the Son of God, not God. Lord is the Son. Yahweh is the Son, baptized as a human and in a human body here. By baptized, I mean in the flesh, which is what baptism is. He had to be born a man, rendering himself as the scapegoat. Yahweh is the one giving up his person to become baptized as the sacrifice. Why?
6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.
7 Be fertile, and increase in number.
Spread over the earth, and increase.”
This is not all. Go back to John 8 where he calls the Father of Israel the Devil. We know who that Father is in Exodus 4.
22 Then tell Pharaoh, ‘This is what Yahweh says: Israel is my firstborn son. 23 I told you to let my son go so that he may worship me. But you refused to let him go. So now I’m going to kill your firstborn son.’” 24 Along the way they stopped for the night. Yahweh met Moses and tried to kill him.
Try as you might to get out of this, you can't. John 8 is clear. The Devil is the judge of man, or Yama from the Hindus. Jesus said NOT to judge, or you judge yourself, which is what he did.
Now to get this straight, there is a better way to think on this.
FATHER (GOD) is Elohim in Genesis 1
Adam is his firstborn Son, not Israel. Yahweh is the Son's Spirit. Above and Below. For each of us, we have a higher nature (MANU) and a lower nature (Yama). Yama is Yahweh, or brother to Manu. Father is the first and only single God of existence.
Father places himself in the Son.
John 17
4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Before creation, the Son, Mother and Father together as one. This is the Trimurti of Hinduism. The son is cast down into ignorance of himself. This is both Adam and Yahweh his Spirit. BOTH are cast into darkness, or the lower realm of the Triloka. The three realms are the Ganas, or Sattva (TRUTH), Rajas (Passion) and Tamas (Ignorance). Jesus was lowered down to the realm of mankind to raise us in the same process back to our higher nature (Father). By saying they were form 'their' Father the Devil, he was referring to their lower natures. Yahweh is that same lower nature of the Son of God to judge and rule in pride, which is what the leaders of Israel were doing. Yahweh is the scapegoat, or ruler of the underworld (YAMA). Jesus was overcoming his old nature by showing the Father before creation, or the unmanifest of the TAO.
Named things are not the Absolute Father. Yahweh was the 'god' of the underworld, where we are now. Now go back.
John 8
27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Lifted up where? Sattva (TRUTH). The higher realm of the Triloka. You will never get this until you understand what it means to be enlightened from the Hindu understanding. Without this understanding, you are swirling around in empty and undefined space.
The Bible has source code called Sanskrit. Without it, no understanding of the three levels of heavenly realms is possible. Yahweh is not God. He is Yama, ruler of the underworld. NOTHING was made without the Son. In the end, the SON is all of it, including us. We are Adam, or where God rests. Yahweh had to release himself as the scapegoat. He prepares his host in Zechariah 3. See if I am right.
For us all, we must release our own scapegoat, or lower nature. In place of this, we inherit the Holy Spirit of God in Heaven. He does not rule from Earth. Yahweh didn't know this until he met the Father as a Man.
a reply to: DISRAELI
Your going to need two posts from me to get this, but I still am unsure you will. It's only seen if you get the picture of ONE God the Father, but that Father has never been manifest in this world. More to the point, we are in him, but not directly. the Son is in God the Father and we are in the Son. Put is another way.
Father and nothing more. Imagine this first. The Father is not simply one, but Echad (unity of multiple). Ruach Elohim is his mind, or Spirit (Feminine). God is both male and female, but not gender. He is unity of Mind and Essence. It's the Mind of God that is the named thing.
Genesis 1 - Adam and Yahweh, or the same union of ONE (Echad). Yahweh is a Spirit, or ruler of Adam. Just as God and his own Mind are one, so too Adam was bonded to his nature (Dharma / Spirit). Before creation of the world, GLORY of Father and Son together. No creation yet.
John 17
4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Move from here to creation by description of what it is.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
As a first and primary presupposition, get this first: The Son is ALL. Not part, but ALL, including you and me and Satan. Satan is not outside the Son, but inside, or the lower nature noted in Ezekiel 28 as a fault. The fall came when the Son willingly sacrificed himself (from the foundation) to become sin for us. He removed Himself from being one with God to enter the Triloka, or the lower nature as ruler of himself (ALL OF CREATION). Yahweh is the Spirit. Adam is Manu, or us.
Now meet Jesus in John 8 calling out his old nature as the Devil. YES! He had to leave Yama behind to walk again with the Father. Which Father???????
The one resting in Mankind from the head of Genesis 2. His HOST!
HE is the Son. God the Father is the one unnamed, or invisible. Never here in ignorance. While Yahweh proclaimed himself the god with none beside, he is now at the right had of God the Father above. Who is Satan? If you must ask, you have not yet found your own lower nature to overcome. WE ARE THE RISEN CHRIST IN THE FLESH (the Church / body on earth). What he did himself, we must all do now. We walk away from our Devil. He's right here on Earth with us. WE ARE IT. Rome accepted the Kingdom of David after Jesus rejects it in the desert temptation. That was Yahweh offering.
Look around. Can you see it?
Your going to need two posts from me to get this, but I still am unsure you will. It's only seen if you get the picture of ONE God the Father, but that Father has never been manifest in this world. More to the point, we are in him, but not directly. the Son is in God the Father and we are in the Son. Put is another way.
Father and nothing more. Imagine this first. The Father is not simply one, but Echad (unity of multiple). Ruach Elohim is his mind, or Spirit (Feminine). God is both male and female, but not gender. He is unity of Mind and Essence. It's the Mind of God that is the named thing.
Genesis 1 - Adam and Yahweh, or the same union of ONE (Echad). Yahweh is a Spirit, or ruler of Adam. Just as God and his own Mind are one, so too Adam was bonded to his nature (Dharma / Spirit). Before creation of the world, GLORY of Father and Son together. No creation yet.
John 17
4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Move from here to creation by description of what it is.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
As a first and primary presupposition, get this first: The Son is ALL. Not part, but ALL, including you and me and Satan. Satan is not outside the Son, but inside, or the lower nature noted in Ezekiel 28 as a fault. The fall came when the Son willingly sacrificed himself (from the foundation) to become sin for us. He removed Himself from being one with God to enter the Triloka, or the lower nature as ruler of himself (ALL OF CREATION). Yahweh is the Spirit. Adam is Manu, or us.
Now meet Jesus in John 8 calling out his old nature as the Devil. YES! He had to leave Yama behind to walk again with the Father. Which Father???????
The one resting in Mankind from the head of Genesis 2. His HOST!
HE is the Son. God the Father is the one unnamed, or invisible. Never here in ignorance. While Yahweh proclaimed himself the god with none beside, he is now at the right had of God the Father above. Who is Satan? If you must ask, you have not yet found your own lower nature to overcome. WE ARE THE RISEN CHRIST IN THE FLESH (the Church / body on earth). What he did himself, we must all do now. We walk away from our Devil. He's right here on Earth with us. WE ARE IT. Rome accepted the Kingdom of David after Jesus rejects it in the desert temptation. That was Yahweh offering.
Look around. Can you see it?
edit on 7-4-2017 by DayAfterTomorrow because: (no reason given)
a reply to: DISRAELI
Take it a third way.
TAO 1
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
---Named in any way is not the invisible God, or God of Love. That God rested in Adam at the head of Genesis 2. Shortly after, Adam's Spirit divides him into a division, or named thing to make more named things.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
---Until Adam overcame by releasing his Spirit to gain the Holy Spirit, he was not truth. He was Aleph Tav. Aleph MEM Tav is Truth. MEM is the Mother, or Holy Spirit of God unnamed.
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
---ELOHIM (FATHER)
The named is the mother of myriad things
Yes, God's Ruach, or the Mother over the formless waters in Genesis 1.
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Who named the things in the Garden? Adam. Adam is the relative, or division of the Absolute. Relative to us all, or kinsman (E=MC2). All named things to God contain the original, thus the FATHER rests in all of us as his firstborn Sons (Adam). Yahweh was the guardian, or Spirit of Ignorance of itself. To find Enlightenment, find the light inside you. The Kingdom is found by going inside, denying the Devil inside, or Yama. Your ruler of this underworld is the same as the ruler of this underworld for the Son (his own Spirit given up in baptism). REBORN!
The Devil is in each of us. We find the higher nature by overcoming the lower, just as Jesus states about his FATHER in relation to 'their' father in John 8 as Yahweh. The scapegoat was caught by his bloodshed.
Genesis 9
6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.
7 Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase.”
Now get this. Everything you thought was right. You were just thinking of it incorrectly. Yahweh was the Son of God, which is in closest relation to God the Father. By rediscovering who his own higher nature is in Adam, Jesus overcomes his desire for this:
Zephaniah 1
The Lord Will Judge the Earth
2 “I will gather everything on the face of the earth
and put an end to it,” declares Yahweh.
3 “I will put an end to humans and animals.
I will put an end to
the birds in the sky,
the fish in the sea,
and the sins that make people fall, together with the sinners.
I will remove all people from the face of the earth,” declares Yahweh.
He denied his Devil in the Desert temptation to rule over man from an Earthly kingdom (The Kingdom of David). Who tempted him? Himself. What was his former desire as Yahweh?
Isaiah 24
21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.
He was going to make war on Heaven until he realized he had a Father there. Elohim. Where is he today? At the right hand of God the Father. Where is Satan and this old kingdom desire? ROME!
Rome accepted the offer.
Take it a third way.
TAO 1
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
---Named in any way is not the invisible God, or God of Love. That God rested in Adam at the head of Genesis 2. Shortly after, Adam's Spirit divides him into a division, or named thing to make more named things.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
---Until Adam overcame by releasing his Spirit to gain the Holy Spirit, he was not truth. He was Aleph Tav. Aleph MEM Tav is Truth. MEM is the Mother, or Holy Spirit of God unnamed.
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
---ELOHIM (FATHER)
The named is the mother of myriad things
Yes, God's Ruach, or the Mother over the formless waters in Genesis 1.
Thus, constantly free of desire
One observes its wonders
Constantly filled with desire
One observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Who named the things in the Garden? Adam. Adam is the relative, or division of the Absolute. Relative to us all, or kinsman (E=MC2). All named things to God contain the original, thus the FATHER rests in all of us as his firstborn Sons (Adam). Yahweh was the guardian, or Spirit of Ignorance of itself. To find Enlightenment, find the light inside you. The Kingdom is found by going inside, denying the Devil inside, or Yama. Your ruler of this underworld is the same as the ruler of this underworld for the Son (his own Spirit given up in baptism). REBORN!
The Devil is in each of us. We find the higher nature by overcoming the lower, just as Jesus states about his FATHER in relation to 'their' father in John 8 as Yahweh. The scapegoat was caught by his bloodshed.
Genesis 9
6 Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans his blood will be shed,
because in his image, Elohim made humans.
7 Be fertile, and increase in number. Spread over the earth, and increase.”
Now get this. Everything you thought was right. You were just thinking of it incorrectly. Yahweh was the Son of God, which is in closest relation to God the Father. By rediscovering who his own higher nature is in Adam, Jesus overcomes his desire for this:
Zephaniah 1
The Lord Will Judge the Earth
2 “I will gather everything on the face of the earth
and put an end to it,” declares Yahweh.
3 “I will put an end to humans and animals.
I will put an end to
the birds in the sky,
the fish in the sea,
and the sins that make people fall, together with the sinners.
I will remove all people from the face of the earth,” declares Yahweh.
He denied his Devil in the Desert temptation to rule over man from an Earthly kingdom (The Kingdom of David). Who tempted him? Himself. What was his former desire as Yahweh?
Isaiah 24
21 On that day Yahweh will punish heaven’s armies in heaven
and earth’s kings on earth.
22 They’ll be gathered like prisoners in a jail
and locked in prison.
After a long time they’ll be punished.
23 The moon will be embarrassed.
The sun will be ashamed,
because Yahweh Tsebaoth will rule
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.
He will be glorious
in the presence of his respected leaders.
He was going to make war on Heaven until he realized he had a Father there. Elohim. Where is he today? At the right hand of God the Father. Where is Satan and this old kingdom desire? ROME!
Rome accepted the offer.
edit on 7-4-2017 by DayAfterTomorrow because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DISRAELI
The God of Hebrews, the God of the Old Testament
Omni- means One!
ALL inclusive!
No matter what you 'worship'/serve, it is God!
All Perspectives are only ever of the One Reality/Truth, Self!
Existence = the complete Universe = Nature = Reality = Consciousness = Truth = Love = 'Self!' = God = Brahman = Tao = ... etc....
ALL INCLUSIVE!!
'One'!
Making distinctions is vanity.
tat tvam asi (en.wikipedia.org...)
a reply to: DISRAELI
Now for the Finale.
FATHER is ONE ABOVE and UNTOUCHED
YAHWEH is the Father in Ignorance. Son went into ignorance in Adam, or the Father's essence in the flesh.
In Zecharian 3, Yahweh realizes his ignorance, clothing his HOST.
JESUS
Yahweh and the Father (HIMSELF) as one again in the form of Adam with a Holy Spirit. In other words, the SON was the whole thing as God in ignorance of himself. Why? The true Father is above, untouched. Adam had to find himself so to speak. It's the reason a child is born. We reach back to the Father that is seeing himself in our image. We then look back, but not without our guardian, or Spirit in ignorance.
This IS Hinduism's understanding. The keys to this are in every scripture, but you won't know if you judge them unworthy.
Now for the Finale.
FATHER is ONE ABOVE and UNTOUCHED
YAHWEH is the Father in Ignorance. Son went into ignorance in Adam, or the Father's essence in the flesh.
In Zecharian 3, Yahweh realizes his ignorance, clothing his HOST.
JESUS
Yahweh and the Father (HIMSELF) as one again in the form of Adam with a Holy Spirit. In other words, the SON was the whole thing as God in ignorance of himself. Why? The true Father is above, untouched. Adam had to find himself so to speak. It's the reason a child is born. We reach back to the Father that is seeing himself in our image. We then look back, but not without our guardian, or Spirit in ignorance.
This IS Hinduism's understanding. The keys to this are in every scripture, but you won't know if you judge them unworthy.
a reply to: namelesss
You get it, but it's hard for others to see this. Presupposition one is this if you are looking at it biblically.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
This is TAO, or all named things emerging from the Spirit, but the Essence of Creation is the Father, who is himself not named in this creation. The verse above says it all. ONE God, then his Son, or Relative Prime. What makes creation from God's Spirit (MIND)?
Dhammapada
Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
OX is Aleph, or Krishna driving the chariot. In this case, the wheel of Dharma turning as the strength pulls us along in life to the Tav (plowman's mark). The body is the cart. The mind makes the entire creation. This is the Son of God, which we are all a part.
The higher nature is moving through the WORD (Tao means speaker / predication / naming). To get to the Father, what do you do?
John 14
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Father is Aleph Bet (Letters). WORD is the Son, or DNA as a body. Getting past the flesh is rising above our lower nature here in ignorance. Even the relative prime (Adam / Jesus / Joshua) had to do this. I say Joshua because of Zechariah 3. Yeshua and Joshua are the High Priest on either end claimed by the same NAME.
You get it, but it's hard for others to see this. Presupposition one is this if you are looking at it biblically.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
This is TAO, or all named things emerging from the Spirit, but the Essence of Creation is the Father, who is himself not named in this creation. The verse above says it all. ONE God, then his Son, or Relative Prime. What makes creation from God's Spirit (MIND)?
Dhammapada
Chapter 1 - Choices
We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.
OX is Aleph, or Krishna driving the chariot. In this case, the wheel of Dharma turning as the strength pulls us along in life to the Tav (plowman's mark). The body is the cart. The mind makes the entire creation. This is the Son of God, which we are all a part.
The higher nature is moving through the WORD (Tao means speaker / predication / naming). To get to the Father, what do you do?
John 14
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Father is Aleph Bet (Letters). WORD is the Son, or DNA as a body. Getting past the flesh is rising above our lower nature here in ignorance. Even the relative prime (Adam / Jesus / Joshua) had to do this. I say Joshua because of Zechariah 3. Yeshua and Joshua are the High Priest on either end claimed by the same NAME.
a reply to: DISRAELI
I really want you to see this the way it's meant. Please read this with care and attention.
John 17
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Before the world was, the Son and God in Glory. No sin.
Creation of things is then seen as Colossians 1:15-17, or a Son of God as ALL of creations, including all rulers, powers, thrones and authorities. Adam is now born, but Adam is much more than you know. ALL! God the Father is still in Glory. Yahweh is not God named, but the Son himself over his creation, including Adam.
Fast forward to the cross and you have Zechariah 3 where Yahweh prepares his host. Is the the Lord of Hosts? YES! ALL! Where is HIS Father? Invisible, just as Colossians 1 states. Not named. The Father we know from the Bible is Yahweh. Elohim in Genesis 1 rested in Adam before Yahweh rules. Yahweh's host is God resting from creation. Bara is the word creation, used in Genesis 1. Is the Son the template? Yes. Is the Lord designated in the NT as the Son, or the Father?
You know the answer. Yahweh was the Son. He was his own scapegoat, because his is God's image. Both the Son and God are ONE. This does not mean Yachid, but Echad. We are all on this path to discovery of our true face before creation. We are IN the SON. HE is all of us.
You are not wrong. You are not right. BOTH.
I really want you to see this the way it's meant. Please read this with care and attention.
John 17
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Before the world was, the Son and God in Glory. No sin.
Creation of things is then seen as Colossians 1:15-17, or a Son of God as ALL of creations, including all rulers, powers, thrones and authorities. Adam is now born, but Adam is much more than you know. ALL! God the Father is still in Glory. Yahweh is not God named, but the Son himself over his creation, including Adam.
Fast forward to the cross and you have Zechariah 3 where Yahweh prepares his host. Is the the Lord of Hosts? YES! ALL! Where is HIS Father? Invisible, just as Colossians 1 states. Not named. The Father we know from the Bible is Yahweh. Elohim in Genesis 1 rested in Adam before Yahweh rules. Yahweh's host is God resting from creation. Bara is the word creation, used in Genesis 1. Is the Son the template? Yes. Is the Lord designated in the NT as the Son, or the Father?
You know the answer. Yahweh was the Son. He was his own scapegoat, because his is God's image. Both the Son and God are ONE. This does not mean Yachid, but Echad. We are all on this path to discovery of our true face before creation. We are IN the SON. HE is all of us.
You are not wrong. You are not right. BOTH.
a reply to: DISRAELI
BY WHY DISRAELI?
Put is another way. God desires to create life for fellowship. How can he go about it? He must birth man, but this makes man an image of him, or perfect copy. How can he make something different? Symmetry must break. The Son was a perfect copy. From this, the Son (And not the Father) was sent as a sacrifice to be broken for us. He was made sin from the foundation. Sin is separation from God's image. Why? Individuation. Apart form the Son being in ignorance of his own nature (that of the Father which made him), he could not allow us to individuate from that same image. Salvation is the process to raise the son back from his state of nakedness apart from the Father. Who is that naked Son? Yahweh.
All rulers, powers, thrones, authorities, people and named things are in and through the Son. ONE. Adam is at the right had as Son of Man. He is also Son of God from the foundation. No difference. He is also God, as in ONE with him as a perfect image.
Get this by knowing how the Father never left his state of Glory, but made an image of himself to engage as a seed into creation. That seed was Adam 1. From this, the guardian of Adam, his own ruler (mind / Spirit) divided his host below. He then ruled that host in a state of inconscience away from his true image. Finding that image again is giving up the image itself (ego), which is what Yahweh was. The image is the false version. Once individuated, Adam returns to gain the true Spirit he started with. NOW he is made new in baptism, which is the story of the Devil refusing to bow to Adam (GOD'S IMAGE). He wanted to rule in pride instead, which IS THE SON! There is no room for Satan in Colossians 1:15-17 apart from being in the Son too.
We all repeat this process using the Seed. ALL. Who is the High Priest? Yahweh remade as Yeshua in baptism. He is his own scapegoat and so are all of us to our own higher natures. Chaff is the body. MIND is the wheat. ALL scriptures from Hindus to Christians proclaim this same process if they follow the same template. Not all do. Know them by their fruit, which is love, compassion and overcoming the lower nature.
The Son is BOTH Yama (ruler of our lower nature) and Manu (ADAM). So are we all. Satan is our conscience (Accuser). We all have one. All rulers, thrones, powers and authorities in and through us all. IN THE SON.
No other.
You will get this.
BY WHY DISRAELI?
Put is another way. God desires to create life for fellowship. How can he go about it? He must birth man, but this makes man an image of him, or perfect copy. How can he make something different? Symmetry must break. The Son was a perfect copy. From this, the Son (And not the Father) was sent as a sacrifice to be broken for us. He was made sin from the foundation. Sin is separation from God's image. Why? Individuation. Apart form the Son being in ignorance of his own nature (that of the Father which made him), he could not allow us to individuate from that same image. Salvation is the process to raise the son back from his state of nakedness apart from the Father. Who is that naked Son? Yahweh.
All rulers, powers, thrones, authorities, people and named things are in and through the Son. ONE. Adam is at the right had as Son of Man. He is also Son of God from the foundation. No difference. He is also God, as in ONE with him as a perfect image.
Get this by knowing how the Father never left his state of Glory, but made an image of himself to engage as a seed into creation. That seed was Adam 1. From this, the guardian of Adam, his own ruler (mind / Spirit) divided his host below. He then ruled that host in a state of inconscience away from his true image. Finding that image again is giving up the image itself (ego), which is what Yahweh was. The image is the false version. Once individuated, Adam returns to gain the true Spirit he started with. NOW he is made new in baptism, which is the story of the Devil refusing to bow to Adam (GOD'S IMAGE). He wanted to rule in pride instead, which IS THE SON! There is no room for Satan in Colossians 1:15-17 apart from being in the Son too.
We all repeat this process using the Seed. ALL. Who is the High Priest? Yahweh remade as Yeshua in baptism. He is his own scapegoat and so are all of us to our own higher natures. Chaff is the body. MIND is the wheat. ALL scriptures from Hindus to Christians proclaim this same process if they follow the same template. Not all do. Know them by their fruit, which is love, compassion and overcoming the lower nature.
The Son is BOTH Yama (ruler of our lower nature) and Manu (ADAM). So are we all. Satan is our conscience (Accuser). We all have one. All rulers, thrones, powers and authorities in and through us all. IN THE SON.
No other.
You will get this.
edit on 7-4-2017 by DayAfterTomorrow because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DISRAELI
In the seventh chapter, the writer dwells on the story of the old testament figure Melchizedek.
This figure is presented as representing Christ. His name and title identify him with “righteousness” and “peace”. The writer notices that he is “like the Son of God” in having no discernible beginning or end, so that he “continues for ever”.
He confirms the connection by applying to Jesus the words of the Psalm;
“Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchizedek” (ch7 v17).
How was it true that Melchizedek had ‘neither beginning of days nor end of life’?
Paul isolated an outstanding fact respecting Melchizedek, in saying of him: “In being fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.” (Heb 7:3) Like other humans, Melchizedek was born and he died. However, the names of his father and mother are not furnished, his ancestry and posterity are not disclosed, and the Scriptures contain no information about the beginning of his days or the end of his life. Thus, Melchizedek could fittingly foreshadow Jesus Christ, who has an unending priesthood. As Melchizedek had no recorded predecessor or successor in his priesthood, so too Christ was preceded by no high priest similar to himself, and the Bible shows that none will ever succeed him. Furthermore, although Jesus was born in the tribe of Judah and in the kingly line of David, his fleshly ancestry had no bearing on his priesthood, nor was it by virtue of human ancestry that the offices of both priest and king were combined in him. These things were as a result of Jehovah’s own oath to him.
A view that appears in the Targums of Jerusalem and that has gained wide acceptance among the Jews and others is that Melchizedek was Noah’s son Shem. Shem was then alive and even outlived Abraham’s wife Sarah. Also, Noah specifically blessed Shem. (Ge 9:26, 27) But this identification has not been confirmed. The fact remains that Melchizedek’s nationality, genealogy, and offspring are left undisclosed in the Scriptures, and that with good reason, for he could thus typify Jesus Christ, who by Jehovah’s sworn oath “has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.”—Heb 6:20.
Source: Melchizedek, Insight, Volume 2
Note that Melchizedek did have a beginning of days as in he had a beginning to his existence. So that* cannot be what Paul was talking about when he used that expression. *: a beginning to his existence. Just thought I'd mention it since that is one of the main arguments from Trinitarians and Binitarians, that Jesus Christ or the Messiah had no beginning and was not created like God.
edit on 8-4-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: DayAfterTomorrow
Isaiah 29 (pardon for not removing the * and +, if you've ever seen any of my comments, you should know by now where to find those footnotes and bible references indicated by those symbols):
8 Yes, it will be just as when someone hungry dreams that he is eating,
But he wakes up hungry,*
And as when someone thirsty dreams that he is drinking,
But he wakes up tired and thirsty.*
So it will happen with the crowd of all the nations
That wage war against Mount Zion.+
9 Be stunned and amazed;+
Blind yourselves and be blinded.+
They are drunk, but not with wine;
They are staggering, but not from alcohol.
10 For Jehovah has poured a spirit of deep sleep on you;+
He has closed your eyes, the prophets,+
And he has covered your heads, the visionaries.+
11 Every vision becomes for you like the words of a sealed book.+ When they give it to someone who can read, saying: “Read this out loud, please,” he will say: “I cannot, for it is sealed up.” 12 And when they give the book to someone who cannot read, saying: “Read this, please,” he will say: “I cannot read at all.”
13 Jehovah says: “This people approaches me with their mouth
And they honor me with their lips,+
But their heart is far removed from me;
And their fear of me is based on commands of men that they have been taught.+
14 Therefore, I am the One who will again do wonderful things with this people,+
With wonder upon wonder;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the understanding of their discreet men will be hidden.”+
15 Woe to those who go to great lengths to conceal their plans* from Jehovah.+
Their deeds are done in a dark place,
While they say: “Who sees us?
Who knows about us?”+
16 How you twist things!*
Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay?+
Should what is made say about its maker:
“He did not make me”?+
And does what is formed say about its former:
“He shows no understanding”?+
Jeremiah 23:
“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares Jehovah.+
2 Therefore this is what Jehovah the God of Israel says against the shepherds who are shepherding my people: “You have scattered my sheep; you kept dispersing them, and you have not turned your attention to them.”+
“So I will turn my attention to you because of your evil deeds,” declares Jehovah.
3 “Then I will gather together the remnant of my sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them,+ and I will bring them back to their pasture,+ and they will be fruitful and become many.+ 4 And I will raise up over them shepherds who will really shepherd them.+ They will no longer be afraid or be terrified, and none will be missing,” declares Jehovah.
9 Concerning the prophets:
My heart is broken within me.
All my bones are shaking.
I am like a man who is drunk
And like a man overcome by wine,
Because of Jehovah and because of his holy words.
10 For the land is full of adulterers;+
Because of the curse the land has gone into mourning+
And the pastures of the wilderness have dried up.+
Their course is evil, and they abuse their power.
11 “Both the prophet and the priest are polluted.*+
Even in my own house I have found their wickedness,”+ declares Jehovah.
12 “So their path will become slippery and dark;+
They will be pushed and will fall.
For I will bring calamity on them
In the year of reckoning,” declares Jehovah.
13 “And in the prophets of Sa·marʹi·a+ I have seen what is repulsive.
Their prophecies are incited by Baʹal,
And they lead my people Israel astray.
14 And in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen horrible things.
They commit adultery+ and walk in falsehood;+
They encourage* evildoers,
And they do not turn away from their wickedness.
To me they are all like Sodʹom,+
And her inhabitants are like Go·morʹrah.”+
15 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says against the prophets:
“Here I am making them eat wormwood
And giving them poisoned water to drink.+
For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has spread throughout the land.”
16 This is what Jehovah of armies says:
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.+
They are deluding you.*
The vision they speak is from their own heart,+
Not from the mouth of Jehovah.+
17 They are saying again and again to those who disrespect me,
‘Jehovah has said: “You will enjoy peace.”’+
And to everyone who follows his own stubborn heart they say,
‘No calamity will come upon you.’+
18 For who has stood in the inner circle of Jehovah
To see and hear his word?
Who has paid attention to his word in order to hear it?
19 Look! The windstorm of Jehovah will burst out in fury;
Like a whirling tempest it will whirl down on the head of the wicked.+
20 The anger of Jehovah will not turn back
Until he has carried out and accomplished the intentions of his heart.
In the final part of the days you will clearly understand this.
21 I did not send the prophets, yet they ran.
I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.+
22 But if they had stood in my inner circle,
They would have made my people hear my words
And would have caused them to turn back from their bad way and their evil deeds.”+
23 “Am I only a God nearby,” declares Jehovah, “and not a God also from far away?”
24 “Can any man hide in a concealed place where I cannot see him?”+ declares Jehovah.
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?”+ declares Jehovah.
25 “I have heard the prophets who are prophesying lies in my name say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’+ 26 How long will this continue in the heart of the prophets, to prophesy lies? They are prophets of the deceit of their own heart.+ 27 They intend to make my people forget my name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot my name because of Baʹal.+ 28 Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”
“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.
29 “Is not my word just like a fire,”+ declares Jehovah, “and like a forge hammer that smashes the crag?”+
30 “So here I am against the prophets,” declares Jehovah, “who steal my words from one another.”+
31 “Here I am against the prophets,” declares Jehovah, “those who use their tongue to say, ‘He declares!’”+
32 “Here I am against the prophets of lying dreams,” declares Jehovah, “who relate them and lead my people astray because of their lies and their boasting.”+
“But I did not send them or command them. So they will not benefit this people at all,”+ declares Jehovah.
33 “And when this people or a prophet or a priest asks you, ‘What is the burden* of Jehovah?’ you should reply to them, ‘“You people are the burden! And I will cast you off,”+ declares Jehovah.’
Note that nowadays it's not always called dreams or dreaming anymore, it's more often presented as spiritual enlightenment, "falsely called knowledge/science", a personal epiphany or significant realization (often described in connection with a spiritual or religious experience such as receiving the holy spirit or spirit messages, feeling the spirit or spiritual, that sort of stuff, spiritual illumination and "light"). Hardly anyone goes as far as saying things like "hey, I had this dream where I gained spiritual insight into important matters about God and reality", allthough that also still occasionally happens as I've seen on ATS.
Isaiah 29 (pardon for not removing the * and +, if you've ever seen any of my comments, you should know by now where to find those footnotes and bible references indicated by those symbols):
8 Yes, it will be just as when someone hungry dreams that he is eating,
But he wakes up hungry,*
And as when someone thirsty dreams that he is drinking,
But he wakes up tired and thirsty.*
So it will happen with the crowd of all the nations
That wage war against Mount Zion.+
9 Be stunned and amazed;+
Blind yourselves and be blinded.+
They are drunk, but not with wine;
They are staggering, but not from alcohol.
10 For Jehovah has poured a spirit of deep sleep on you;+
He has closed your eyes, the prophets,+
And he has covered your heads, the visionaries.+
11 Every vision becomes for you like the words of a sealed book.+ When they give it to someone who can read, saying: “Read this out loud, please,” he will say: “I cannot, for it is sealed up.” 12 And when they give the book to someone who cannot read, saying: “Read this, please,” he will say: “I cannot read at all.”
13 Jehovah says: “This people approaches me with their mouth
And they honor me with their lips,+
But their heart is far removed from me;
And their fear of me is based on commands of men that they have been taught.+
14 Therefore, I am the One who will again do wonderful things with this people,+
With wonder upon wonder;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the understanding of their discreet men will be hidden.”+
15 Woe to those who go to great lengths to conceal their plans* from Jehovah.+
Their deeds are done in a dark place,
While they say: “Who sees us?
Who knows about us?”+
16 How you twist things!*
Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay?+
Should what is made say about its maker:
“He did not make me”?+
And does what is formed say about its former:
“He shows no understanding”?+
Jeremiah 23:
“Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares Jehovah.+
2 Therefore this is what Jehovah the God of Israel says against the shepherds who are shepherding my people: “You have scattered my sheep; you kept dispersing them, and you have not turned your attention to them.”+
“So I will turn my attention to you because of your evil deeds,” declares Jehovah.
3 “Then I will gather together the remnant of my sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them,+ and I will bring them back to their pasture,+ and they will be fruitful and become many.+ 4 And I will raise up over them shepherds who will really shepherd them.+ They will no longer be afraid or be terrified, and none will be missing,” declares Jehovah.
9 Concerning the prophets:
My heart is broken within me.
All my bones are shaking.
I am like a man who is drunk
And like a man overcome by wine,
Because of Jehovah and because of his holy words.
10 For the land is full of adulterers;+
Because of the curse the land has gone into mourning+
And the pastures of the wilderness have dried up.+
Their course is evil, and they abuse their power.
11 “Both the prophet and the priest are polluted.*+
Even in my own house I have found their wickedness,”+ declares Jehovah.
12 “So their path will become slippery and dark;+
They will be pushed and will fall.
For I will bring calamity on them
In the year of reckoning,” declares Jehovah.
13 “And in the prophets of Sa·marʹi·a+ I have seen what is repulsive.
Their prophecies are incited by Baʹal,
And they lead my people Israel astray.
14 And in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen horrible things.
They commit adultery+ and walk in falsehood;+
They encourage* evildoers,
And they do not turn away from their wickedness.
To me they are all like Sodʹom,+
And her inhabitants are like Go·morʹrah.”+
15 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says against the prophets:
“Here I am making them eat wormwood
And giving them poisoned water to drink.+
For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has spread throughout the land.”
16 This is what Jehovah of armies says:
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.+
They are deluding you.*
The vision they speak is from their own heart,+
Not from the mouth of Jehovah.+
17 They are saying again and again to those who disrespect me,
‘Jehovah has said: “You will enjoy peace.”’+
And to everyone who follows his own stubborn heart they say,
‘No calamity will come upon you.’+
18 For who has stood in the inner circle of Jehovah
To see and hear his word?
Who has paid attention to his word in order to hear it?
19 Look! The windstorm of Jehovah will burst out in fury;
Like a whirling tempest it will whirl down on the head of the wicked.+
20 The anger of Jehovah will not turn back
Until he has carried out and accomplished the intentions of his heart.
In the final part of the days you will clearly understand this.
21 I did not send the prophets, yet they ran.
I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.+
22 But if they had stood in my inner circle,
They would have made my people hear my words
And would have caused them to turn back from their bad way and their evil deeds.”+
23 “Am I only a God nearby,” declares Jehovah, “and not a God also from far away?”
24 “Can any man hide in a concealed place where I cannot see him?”+ declares Jehovah.
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?”+ declares Jehovah.
25 “I have heard the prophets who are prophesying lies in my name say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’+ 26 How long will this continue in the heart of the prophets, to prophesy lies? They are prophets of the deceit of their own heart.+ 27 They intend to make my people forget my name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot my name because of Baʹal.+ 28 Let the prophet who has a dream relate the dream, but the one who has my word should speak my word truthfully.”
“What does the straw have in common with the grain?” declares Jehovah.
29 “Is not my word just like a fire,”+ declares Jehovah, “and like a forge hammer that smashes the crag?”+
30 “So here I am against the prophets,” declares Jehovah, “who steal my words from one another.”+
31 “Here I am against the prophets,” declares Jehovah, “those who use their tongue to say, ‘He declares!’”+
32 “Here I am against the prophets of lying dreams,” declares Jehovah, “who relate them and lead my people astray because of their lies and their boasting.”+
“But I did not send them or command them. So they will not benefit this people at all,”+ declares Jehovah.
33 “And when this people or a prophet or a priest asks you, ‘What is the burden* of Jehovah?’ you should reply to them, ‘“You people are the burden! And I will cast you off,”+ declares Jehovah.’
Note that nowadays it's not always called dreams or dreaming anymore, it's more often presented as spiritual enlightenment, "falsely called knowledge/science", a personal epiphany or significant realization (often described in connection with a spiritual or religious experience such as receiving the holy spirit or spirit messages, feeling the spirit or spiritual, that sort of stuff, spiritual illumination and "light"). Hardly anyone goes as far as saying things like "hey, I had this dream where I gained spiritual insight into important matters about God and reality", allthough that also still occasionally happens as I've seen on ATS.
edit on 8-4-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: whereislogic
Or perhaps the most common, they jump right into it and start presenting their views on theological subjects (especially those related to bible texts and their interpretations of them) as if it's so. As if it's the correct view. Or as if it's an insightful view of the text. As if it's something worth reading and on ATS possibly even giving it a flag and/or star. As if it's worth paying attention to. While...
20 True wisdom+ cries aloud in the street.+
It keeps raising its voice in the public squares.+
21 At the corner* of the busy streets it calls out.
At the entrances of the city gates it says:+
22 “How long will you inexperienced ones love inexperience?
How long will you ridiculers take pleasure in ridicule?
And how long will you foolish ones hate knowledge?+
23 Respond to my reproof.*+
Then I will pour out my spirit for you;
I will make my words known to you.+
24 Because I called out, but you kept refusing,
I stretched out my hand, but no one was paying attention,+
25 You kept neglecting all my advice
And rejecting my reproof,
26 I also will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when what you dread comes,+
27 When what you dread comes like a storm,
And your disaster arrives like a storm wind,
When distress and trouble come upon you.
28 At that time they will keep calling me, but I will not answer;
They will eagerly look for me, but they will not find me,+
29 Because they hated knowledge,+
And they did not choose to fear* Jehovah.+ [Or "have reference for"]
30 They refused my advice;
They disrespected all my reproof.
31 So they will bear the consequences* of their way,+
And they will be glutted with their own counsel.* (Proverbs ch. 1)
Or perhaps the most common, they jump right into it and start presenting their views on theological subjects (especially those related to bible texts and their interpretations of them) as if it's so. As if it's the correct view. Or as if it's an insightful view of the text. As if it's something worth reading and on ATS possibly even giving it a flag and/or star. As if it's worth paying attention to. While...
20 True wisdom+ cries aloud in the street.+
It keeps raising its voice in the public squares.+
21 At the corner* of the busy streets it calls out.
At the entrances of the city gates it says:+
22 “How long will you inexperienced ones love inexperience?
How long will you ridiculers take pleasure in ridicule?
And how long will you foolish ones hate knowledge?+
23 Respond to my reproof.*+
Then I will pour out my spirit for you;
I will make my words known to you.+
24 Because I called out, but you kept refusing,
I stretched out my hand, but no one was paying attention,+
25 You kept neglecting all my advice
And rejecting my reproof,
26 I also will laugh when disaster strikes you;
I will mock when what you dread comes,+
27 When what you dread comes like a storm,
And your disaster arrives like a storm wind,
When distress and trouble come upon you.
28 At that time they will keep calling me, but I will not answer;
They will eagerly look for me, but they will not find me,+
29 Because they hated knowledge,+
And they did not choose to fear* Jehovah.+ [Or "have reference for"]
30 They refused my advice;
They disrespected all my reproof.
31 So they will bear the consequences* of their way,+
And they will be glutted with their own counsel.* (Proverbs ch. 1)
originally posted by: whereislogic
Note that Melchizedek did have a beginning of days as in he had a beginning to his existence. So that* cannot be what Paul was talking about when he used that expression. *: a beginning to his existence.
We need to distinguish between two Melchizedeks.
There is a physical Melchizedek, who walked on the earth, and ate and slept; and a symbolic Melchizedek created by the limited things Genesis records about him.
It is glaringly obvious that the physical Melchizedek would have had a physical birth and physical parents, just as he would have had a physical death. That observation is true enough, though it must be applied to both ends of the lifespan.
The writer of this letter (who was probably not Paul) is focussing on the fact that Genesis does not mention these physical details, so that there is a symbolic Melchizedek, a Melchizedek existing only in the Genesis text, who does not possess any of them.
It is the symbolic Melchizedek, not the physical Melchizedek, who is being used as a model for Christ.
I'm sure you brought up this point in one of my previous threads. I posted a longer answer then; I would like to have pasted it now, but I can't put my finger on it.
edit on 8-4-2017 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Joneselius
Thank you. I've done similar threads for other portions of the New Testament- the words of Jesus, John's gospel in general, Acts. Nobody in those days was making a distinction.
Then why are you making one by referring to the so-called "Old Testament" (conducive for triggering the thought 'as if it's no longer relevant', "old") and so-called "New Testament" when those terms are not used by any bible writers and invented by a philosopher of the type referred to at 2 Timothy 4:3,4 and Col.2:8 and then picked up on and passed on through the centuries by Babylon the Great?
So that people know what you are referring to that are familiar with these terms? Try it this way:
The Hebrew Scriptures a.k.a. the "Old Testament" or the (Christian) Greek Scriptures a.k.a. the "New Testament".
That would be the least offensive to anyone attached to these 2 terminologies and who doesn't want to give up on them and sees no misleading effects because of the use of those terminologies (or argues that way to themselves to justify continued usage of these terminologies to refer to those parts of the bible).
edit on 8-4-2017 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: whereislogic
I use those terms because they are well-understood and convenient for communication, and because I don't see any problem in them.
The alternative terms that you offer are still distinguishing between the two.
I use those terms because they are well-understood and convenient for communication, and because I don't see any problem in them.
The alternative terms that you offer are still distinguishing between the two.
edit on 8-4-2017 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
a reply to: DISRAELI
I find it ironic to see someone who claims or is acting in a way as if he can explain how the book of Hebrews is to be understood to spread what I perceive to be* misinformation about its authorship and damaging to the credibility of the bible in which this book is found. *: I perceive it that way because I have observed evidence that shows this argument about Paul not writing Hebrews to be bogus, deceptive, misleading and filled with half-truths and twists.
Again the verse in Isaiah 29:
"How you twist things!"
seems to apply quite well. The fact/truth remains, Paul was not talking about Christ as having no beginning to his existence. Your explanations regarding a symbolic Melchizedek does not change that. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that fact.
I find it ironic to see someone who claims or is acting in a way as if he can explain how the book of Hebrews is to be understood to spread what I perceive to be* misinformation about its authorship and damaging to the credibility of the bible in which this book is found. *: I perceive it that way because I have observed evidence that shows this argument about Paul not writing Hebrews to be bogus, deceptive, misleading and filled with half-truths and twists.
Again the verse in Isaiah 29:
"How you twist things!"
seems to apply quite well. The fact/truth remains, Paul was not talking about Christ as having no beginning to his existence. Your explanations regarding a symbolic Melchizedek does not change that. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that fact.
a reply to: DISRAELI
Ah, then I guessed right what your motivation and justification for their continued use was.
The keyword that leaves the wrong impressions on people is "old", that word isn't used in my alternative suggestion which merely describes in which language these parts were written. It's not about distinguishing (it = those wrong/false/incorrect impressions that are misleading and connected to the misleading teachings that you seemed to want to address in this thread, that there is no distinction in the overall message and that God hasn't changed in the Greek Scriptures, including His way also called "the way", "the way of truth", "the way of life" and "the way of peace", ok that last part wasn't something you were trying to address but something I felt would be useful to add to what you were arguing for).
Ah, then I guessed right what your motivation and justification for their continued use was.
The keyword that leaves the wrong impressions on people is "old", that word isn't used in my alternative suggestion which merely describes in which language these parts were written. It's not about distinguishing (it = those wrong/false/incorrect impressions that are misleading and connected to the misleading teachings that you seemed to want to address in this thread, that there is no distinction in the overall message and that God hasn't changed in the Greek Scriptures, including His way also called "the way", "the way of truth", "the way of life" and "the way of peace", ok that last part wasn't something you were trying to address but something I felt would be useful to add to what you were arguing for).
edit on 8-4-2017 by
whereislogic because: (no reason given)
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