archaeological evidence that medieval peasants feared zombies

a reply to: blend57

Regarding Datura, datura is a new world species, that has its origins in the US southwest and california. Jimson weed was so prevelant here, when i was growing up, jimson is what later summer and fall smells like to me.
Now that being said, jimson is an important ritual plant in central asia, namely with the Munda speakers of n/w india.
Another strange coincidence is that the Munda tell a creation story derived from a central california indian creation mythos, the "earth diver" creation mythology,hmm now how could that be?
Sorry for the detour.


BTW zombies are not the living dead, zombies are drugged slaves. I forget the name of the compund, but it puts you into a dreamlike topor, that leaves the user suseptable to sugestion, high enough doses suppress the autonomic functions, such as heartbeat and respiration, to the point the person appears to be dead for up to a couple of days, then they come out of the coma with a fried brain and extremely susceptable to suggestion. The same family of snails used in the carribean by voodoo practitioners to make zombies, is aslo found in the waters of the levant, and was well know as an source for an assasination poison. There are also ancient hebrew references to the poison's use for putting people into a coma like state.
There was a theologian about 20 years ago who made the case that Christ didnt die on the cross, but was poisoned by a jewish underground supporter, ie longinus and his spear. Her argument is very good and based on religio/political climate of the time. There was a notable jewish sympathyser movement among some of the romans in the levant. And where christ was stabbed with the spear is the least damaging, and in fact would have saved his life, as it allowed the fluids, that build up in the body cavity during crucafixtion which is actually kills you. The spear was alos the method of introducing the poison. So, after a few hrs on the cross, while appearing to be dead with a spear wound the romans lost interest, and he was removed to the burial crypt. Now the most interesting part, is she found a mosaic mural in a 2nd century syrian church, that shows christ being put in the crypt, the stone being rolled across the doorway, all while the sun is up. Then another panel shows a shrouded body being carried from the crypt under the cover of darkness, and the last one show a risen christ giving a sermon.



Easter is the first zombie holiday

a reply to: punkinworks10

Perhaps it was; scopolamine?

Scopolamine

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: punkinworks10

Perhaps it was; scopolamine?

Scopolamine

In the case of Christ, I doubt it would have been involved, as far as I know there is no history of datura use in the levant at this period of time. But the snail poison and its effects was known and written about in contemporary literature in the region.
A few years ago i saw a documentary about voodoo, and the filmaker was present for the making of a zombie in Haiti.
The voodoo priestess harvested the snails, did her thing with them, and mixed the resulting material with some other things, that was probably the datura, and blew it in the face of the "zombie prospect"?.
The guy that became the zombie owed some sort of debt, so he agreed to become a zombie(slave) at a plantation of some sort to absolve himself of the debt. He was going to spend a few months working so they re-dosed him on a regular basis. I wish i could remember what the ultimate outcome was, the priestess assured the film maker he would be fine after not taking the drug cocktail for a while. But i do remember they interviewed, if thats what you could call it, a couple former zombies and those guys were fried.

a reply to: punkinworks10

A similar proposition was put forth in Holy Blood, Holy Grail' only the delivery method for the anesthetic was the sponge dipped into wine and offered to Christ. It's certainly a possibility that includes entertaining a number of "what if?" propositions. Since about 90% of the conjecture put forth in the above mentioned book has been thoroughly debunked many times over, it makes it difficult to ascertain how much reality may have been involved in the proposed story line. It's an interesting notion that has a basis in reality. Whether or not it ever actually occurred is impossible to say. But then again, I'm always happy to entertain odd propositions. At least until the evidence is reviewed and due diligence has been engaged!

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
Zombies are real, people get attacked by them in Florida every other year. But then the news just goes on to say "oh he was on drugs" , and then the drug tests come back negative. So they say "we have to send the samples off to a lab for further analysis, it should be a couple of weeks." But then, nothing but silence. No later release of what results showed, and no further testimony or word from the living person they have in custody.

So you believe in stupidity? Have you ever studied the human cardio vascular system and how it works? You are either dead or you are alive, there is no grey area.

originally posted by: Bedlam

originally posted by: Spider879
Zombies are mostly an African/ African derived thing

But the undead are universal.

I've got a dandy novel outline on it. If I could write, it would be killer.

What if strigoi were one of those universal truths? Something you 'discover' if you're a 'magic' user? Living forever by sucking the life from the young crosses so many cultures. What if there's some truth to it?

My wife swears by it.

Harte

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: seasonal

The first introduction of zombies was in a book called The Magic Island by W.B. Seabrook in 1929. Meaning no way medieval peasants were worried about zombies. What they did fear is vampires and took precautions to make sure they didnt return from the grave.

Here is some information on some archaeological sites showing their fear of vampires.

listverse.com...

The word, perhaps, but not the concept:

A revenant is a visible ghost or animated corpse that is believed to have revived from death to haunt the living.[6] The word revenant is derived from the Latin word reveniens, "returning" (see also the related French verb revenir, meaning "to come back").
Many stories were documented by English historians in the Middle Ages. William of Newburgh wrote during the 1190s, "It would not be easy to believe that the corpses of the dead should sally (I know not by what agency) from their graves, and should wander about to the terror or destruction of the living, and again return to the tomb, which of its own accord spontaneously opened to receive them, did not frequent examples, occurring in our own times, suffice to establish this fact, to the truth of which there is abundant testimony."[7]

wiki
Some of these were described as bloodsuckers. But many were just reanimated dead.

Harte

Awesome find. S&F. The thing is 700 years ago. 400 years ago we were hanging woman for them being witches. I could see them being scared of something like that. After the plague killed a number of people you nor I can possibly fathom. Them being scared of the dead seems perfectly logical.

a reply to: peter vlar

Hello peter v,
I read the article about 20 years ago, and the author was a former theoogical historian for the Vatican, and she had come up with two real world scenarios to explain the lack of a body, when the followers returned.
One was that christ didnt die and with the help of the jewish resistance, escaped. The other was that the crypt wasnt sealed properly and dogs drug the body away. I guess it was a fairly common occurance in levantine cemetaries of the times.
She said, of the ideas she prefered the former, but the latter was a more likey scenario.
When asked to retract her work and she refused she was excommunicated.
It was a fascinting article, and the photos of the mosaic in the abandoned church were quite compeling.

Personally, in light of what ive learned since reading the article, I think the the former is the case,
The story of Esa, the buhdist saint who is well documented in the contemporary literature of inda, neatly matches with a christ surving the crucifixtion
scenario.

a reply to: punkinworks10

I'll have to dig around and see if I can find the article you're referencing. I'm still not convinced of the historicity of Jesus but having grown up Catholic, I still find the mythology fascinating. Thanks for the heads up.

a reply to: punkinworks10

A vatican archive fellow told me it was mushrooms.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness
Mushrooms would be a very roman way of poisoning someone,. Two problems with mushrooms, there arent any that will put you in a coma, without ultimately kiling you. And it is isreal, mushrooms would be extremely uncomon and seasonal.

a reply to: punkinworks10

It is said he went missing in the East for quite a number of years; Christianity being Christ focused... to uncover every single aspect known? There has been a lot of grasping at the unknown. The study of such figure takes no account of the followers but seeking to discover the path walked in it's entirety so that it is an easier path to follow and understand, to what was being pointed at. The dogma and concepts already existed to which he was pointing... using the language available; when saying god... it could have been assumed as any of them, it is commonly assumed he was pointing to the one in the old testament... but he could have been pointing at the very conception of concept as god that conceived of him in taking a womb or birth.

When I was married I wanted to put off children as long as possible; the ex-wife wanted to get married just because her parents wanted grandchildren being in ill health... so she was trying and I was unaware of this trying, pregnancy test in the bathroom trash and pre-natals from an OB GYN in the medicine cabinet. I said um are you trying to have a child? then she told me about the parents situation. So the next time we had intercourse as I was about to issue I thought child. A few weeks later test was positive period was missed.

Sperm being living things; some have the duty to impregnate, some have the duty to seek out and kill any other sperm that may be competition some tie up others to slow them down so another can go ahead... basically like a sports team trying to make it to the end zone. Well, a few months she was trying without my knowledge... and as soon as I knew? In that moment of blank mental bliss of an orgasm? Thought gave direction to what was issuing.

So I conceived of my son; he didn't just happen or occur. Her eggs being receptive of them helped also.

If Christ had awareness of the first thought while not in form to conceive him or pull his consciousness into a womb; and kept his awareness while in the womb all the way until birth then the voice that said come forth is what sent him into it... assuming that was god when perceived as a thought from his material father but in the immaterial not knowing it was issued from his actual father then an assumption could be made that he was returning home to the spiritual father unaware it was a thought form.

So it makes sense that anyone filled with spirits or energies inhabiting a form instead of taking another birth? The magic words of come forth would pull them out and force them to find a womb instead of so many consciousness's dwelling in one form. This is alluded to in the knowing who is the host and whom is the guest. that which stays is the host the original face or personality of awareness, the guest everything not that...

So in a sense demons can be very real... however if one abstains from what one calls a personal demon like being an alcoholic and abusing everyone including themselves in denial that any abuse is going on; if they take control of their form as the host then the drinking will cease and not being able to quench that thirst or hunger... the demon or energy not oneself as guest ruling the host will leave.

But at the same time such a thing as drinking can occur in balance; one is a celebration of life and the other seeks to escape from it... see one a positive and one a negative. When coming from a negative place of coping it seeks to destroy everything instead of celebrate everything, and the thought or concept that makes excuses when spreading pain that ends in destroying themselves in that pain... just to escape it. In such a manner it becomes compounded, weighed down... one thing right after another in a mass of confusion and undifferentiation in who one is and what is being grasped.

Formless desiring form grasp, form desiring no form also grasp and in that instant both find a dwelling.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: punkinworks10

I'll have to dig around and see if I can find the article you're referencing. I'm still not convinced of the historicity of Jesus but having grown up Catholic, I still find the mythology fascinating. Thanks for the heads up.

I used to doubt the historicity of jesus the man, but not anymore. The christian narative of jesus is an amalgam of tales about 3 different people, who lived across the span of 2-3 centuries, one of whom is the roman period messiah, jesus.
The wedding party and fishermen stories are both found in literature that predates the roman period.
And after seeing a fantastic documentary about Esa or Aesa, of Naz, my opinion changed. Im sure weve had this discussion before.
A young Esa( 13-15 yrs) arrives/abandoned at a village in the hindu kush, with a silk caravan from the west, at the end of the 1st decade CE. He ends up in a local buhddist monastery and takes up religious studys and was an excellent student.
In his late teens journeys east, studying at several abbeys and monastarys before ending up at one in nepal, which still exists and holds his writtings.
On his journey he was know as somewhat firebrand and trouble maker, by bucking the system, and giving sermons that railed against the inequity and injustice of the caste system. He drew so much attention, that when he passed through an important city he made the local "newspaper" , so to speak. He was written of and portrayed in the records of the local king, who didnt appreciate the newcomer upsetting the old ways.
In nepal he is said to have attained enlightenment and decides to return to his home in the west, he is late 20's at this point.
He returns to the hindu kush some years later, and tells a story of being persecuted and surving a crucifixtion, before escaping. He lived the be an old man preaching in the region, and his grave is still an active shrine.

a reply to: punkinworks10

A lot of Eastern(Asian) stories have been adapted to other cultures; using the language of that new culture to tell the same tale just the names and places are different. The same has gone on in tales and storytelling for a very very long time; many people are still illiterate to this day and only know what they know through hearing. In those days illiteracy was extremely common, meaning commoners were those not rare, not learned not studied or any other differentiation that made one an individual and not just one of the herd or masses.

So finding out who the character was as you said can become difficult when it was word of mouth and carried all over in such a manner. In a game of telephone one has to use memory of just one term; and in less than 20 people it can change... a whole story... well; just how big did that fish story get that swallowed Jonah? Enough to eventually include an Eskimo named Queequeg. Like a "white lie" that grew so big that he could never catch the rumor to put an end to it's circulation in that vast ocean holding it once it has escaped oneself.

a reply to: punkinworks10

Datura can get you and your imaginary friend into a whole lot of trouble. Avoid.


I mean broken ribs and thrown in a cell kind of trouble. Really, avoid.

a reply to: punkinworks10

I joke with my Christian friends that they worship a flesh eating zombie.

Medieval Europe was a pretty superstitious place. Humans are superstitious in general....but living through times like the black death likely pushed humanity to the brink psychologically.

originally posted by: Naturallywired

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
Zombies are real, people get attacked by them in Florida every other year. But then the news just goes on to say "oh he was on drugs" , and then the drug tests come back negative. So they say "we have to send the samples off to a lab for further analysis, it should be a couple of weeks." But then, nothing but silence. No later release of what results showed, and no further testimony or word from the living person they have in custody.

So you believe in stupidity? Have you ever studied the human cardio vascular system and how it works? You are either dead or you are alive, there is no grey area.

Not according to Dr. Aquino.

Could be a disease that mimics "grey area"
Neurological?

What are your qualifications?

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Naturallywired

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
Zombies are real, people get attacked by them in Florida every other year. But then the news just goes on to say "oh he was on drugs" , and then the drug tests come back negative. So they say "we have to send the samples off to a lab for further analysis, it should be a couple of weeks." But then, nothing but silence. No later release of what results showed, and no further testimony or word from the living person they have in custody.

So you believe in stupidity? Have you ever studied the human cardio vascular system and how it works? You are either dead or you are alive, there is no grey area.

Not according to Dr. Aquino.

Could be a disease that mimics "grey area"
Neurological?

What are your qualifications?

If your heart is not beating your muscles will not work, period.

originally posted by: Naturallywired

originally posted by: blueyedevilwoman

originally posted by: Naturallywired

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
Zombies are real, people get attacked by them in Florida every other year. But then the news just goes on to say "oh he was on drugs" , and then the drug tests come back negative. So they say "we have to send the samples off to a lab for further analysis, it should be a couple of weeks." But then, nothing but silence. No later release of what results showed, and no further testimony or word from the living person they have in custody.

So you believe in stupidity? Have you ever studied the human cardio vascular system and how it works? You are either dead or you are alive, there is no grey area.

Not according to Dr. Aquino.

Could be a disease that mimics "grey area"
Neurological?

What are your qualifications?

If your heart is not beating your muscles will not work, period.

That is what I was told too.