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Taxation is nothing but theft.

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posted on Sep, 1 2017 @ 11:52 PM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5

You're calling me intellectually lazy when your arguments look like this ^^^ ?

You seriously just said something wasn't a viable solution without presenting ANY rationale at all.


My rationale is that your suggestion was not a viable solution because it obviously doesn't solve the problem. People like me vote against more taxes and big government all the time and what do we get for our trouble? More taxes and more big government. Voting is completely useless when you're in a permanent minority.



Being RAPED is not a reasonable expectation.


Being enslaved is also not a reasonable expectation.

But in this case, the meat of your argument was "Well, if you don't like it, run away. It' your fault for choosing to stay in a bad situation". Which is what immediately reminded me of the rape argument. "You deserve whatever this is because you didn't run away to another country" is not a good argument.


Being raped does not benefit the public good.


But what if it did? Would you support rape if it benefited the public good? I know. It's not a very realistic scenario. But if you can stretch your brain just a little. What if it was? Just what if?

Here we have millions of people who are being treated like livestock. To put it simply, we are basically being milked by the government like a bunch of two-legged cows. Now a cow might be fine with this arrangement but it's a damn cow. A cow doesn't know it's being exploited. And probably doesn't care about anything but keeping the flies away.

Human beings are not cows. There is more to justifying something like running a human farm than just saying that it works. Of course it works! The governments of the world have spent centuries refining slavery to an art form. Imagine anyone with a brain who put that kind of time and effort into something that didn't work.

So congrats. You have successfully deluded yourself into being a happy milking cow. If only we could all be so naive.


Being raped deprives someone of something in a manner which is ILLEGAL per the laws agreed upon by the society in which you live.


But rape is against the law no matter what. There isn't a context in which rape is legal. Here we are talking about consent. Consent is the same question whether you're asking for sex or money. If someone breaks into their neighbor's house and steals everything and gives it all to the homeless, it doesn't matter. It's still stealing somebody's stuff. Just because the asserts are needed elsewhere and someone has a surplus doesn't make it OK.


I could go on.


But you would still be wrong.


This is not in any way related to taxation, which is a reasonable expectation for anyone who lives in any modern society, especially when you have representation


OK. I want all mandatory taxes repealed and the government to be funded by donations. Who is representing me and what are the chances that's ever going to happen? Once again, we are back to the fact that your solution is not a solution. There is no such thing as consent in the absence of meaningful choice. Your argument is might makes right. I have no representation to speak of.


and which DOES benefit the public interest, and which is NOT illegal per the rules of the society in which you have chosen to live.


I'm sorry but being born is not a choice I remember making. Which is another very touchy point of contention because people in this society are basically rewarded for reproducing under the worst possible circumstances and leaving their kids in a system that basically chews them up for 60 years and spits out their bones.

The only thing people in this society get is a place to sleep while they recharge for their next day of labor so they can pay the tax man and the bank and everybody else. Slavery. Hear that? Prove me wrong. How are we not slaves? What choices do we have?


Again, you're calling me lazy, when apparently you think it's hunky dory to benefit from shared infrastructure and services while at the same time calling it "theft" when it comes time to pay for those things.


I didn't know existing was a benefit. So far I have not found existing to support a soulless machine to be all that beneficial. I would not have complained if this awesome society had not made me happen. So I guess if it has to listen to me complain about the burdens of existence, it can just blame itself.

Don't want to listen to people like me complain? Tell people to stop having babies. For all the good it'll do.

The gilded cage. You've probably heard the term before but if you haven't, look it up. That's your society right there in three words.

edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 12:15 AM
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We must have at least a couple of government employees in this thread. LOL

I haven't seen anyone work this hard to defend the IRS in a long time.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 12:19 AM
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Oh, this old argument again?

I learned a long time ago not to argue with libertarians. Libertarian-ism has to be one of the most intellectually immature political, nay, fantasy ideologies out there.

I actually give dyed-in-the-wool, real political "anarchists" (as in the actual ethos) more credit and respect.

Coming attraction to ATS soon:

The issue of "Self-Ownership".

That's a fun one.
edit on 2-9-2017 by Kettu because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 12:29 AM
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originally posted by: Kettu
Oh, this old argument again?

I learned a long time ago not to argue with libertarians. Libertarian-ism has to be one of the most intellectually immature political, nay, fantasy ideologies out there.


-1

(There doesn't seem to be an official way to do that)


Libertarianism is a counterbalance to the lopsided majority of the big government supporters on the right and left. We (libertarians) know (for the most part) that our "ideal" is not realistic. But it's worth making the argument anyway because it demonstrates so clearly how big government advocates really think. And frankly, everything needs to be questioned from time to time so why not?

As small as the libertarian movement is or how little it has (or ever could hope to) accomplish(ed) they (the liberal majority) still cannot stand for the slightest deviation in opinion. You want to send them into a panic? Mention the right to be left alone on any forum and they will come out of the woodwork to call you the worst person in the world. LOL

That's to say that a massive majority (of any kind) is going to tend to be abusive and hit every nail with a sledgehammer. Sometimes the smallest counterweight is better than nothing.
edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 01:04 AM
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LOL. This guy has resorted to calling us shills and claiming we're defending the IRS.

I'm sorry, tool moe dee. I like living in a society with roads, bridges, fire departments, police departments, parks, maintenance crews, guys who salt the roads in the winter and fill pot holes in the summer.

I like living in a country with infrastructure because it facilitates a robust economy and jobs.

And so does most everyone else in America.

Stop using our public infrastructure and services if you're not willing to pay for them. Seriously, I don't want to see you on a public road. I don't want to see you in a public park. I don't want YOUR streets to ever be maintained.

I suggest you get yourself a little shack (if you steal the wood, you can avoid paying taxes), and hide away like the Unabomber.

I think you'll find people are far less annoyed by your infantile worldview if you do this.

Take it from me, hoss. This is for your own good.

Because otherwise we're all going to team up and tax you into oblivion. You think you're a slave now? Just wait. I'm coming for 100% of your cash, hoss. Oh yeah.

It'll be like that big, fat red Kool-Aid man busting through the brick wall of your house and screaming, "OOOOH YEAH. I got ya MONEY!"


edit on 2-9-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-9-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 01:07 AM
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originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Kettu
Oh, this old argument again?

I learned a long time ago not to argue with libertarians. Libertarian-ism has to be one of the most intellectually immature political, nay, fantasy ideologies out there.


-1

(There doesn't seem to be an official way to do that)


Libertarianism is a counterbalance to the lopsided majority of the big government supporters on the right and left. We (libertarians) know (for the most part) that our "ideal" is not realistic. But it's worth making the argument anyway because it demonstrates so clearly how big government advocates really think. And frankly, everything needs to be questioned from time to time so why not?

As small as the libertarian movement is or how little it has (or ever could hope to) accomplish(ed) they (the liberal majority) still cannot stand for the slightest deviation in opinion. You want to send them into a panic? Mention the right to be left alone on any forum and they will come out of the woodwork to call you the worst person in the world. LOL

That's to say that a massive majority (of any kind) is going to tend to be abusive and hit every nail with a sledgehammer. Sometimes the smallest counterweight is better than nothing.


-5

P.S.

The reason people react to you the way they do isn't because you have a minority opinion or because you believe in "small government." It's because you think taxes and rape have something important in common. That, and your logic is infantile.

Well you know what I think? I think you wanting to use our roads without paying for them is sorta like rape. Why are you raping our roads?
edit on 2-9-2017 by Dudemo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 01:13 AM
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originally posted by: BrianFlanders
Mention the right to be left alone on any forum and they will come out of the woodwork to call you the worst person in the world. LOL


What does that even mean??? Who goes to a forum to be left alone???

If you want to be left alone I suggest going to any forum is the wrong place to do that. Do you know what a forum, in the most general sense even is or it's purpose??? Because it's not a place of solitude.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 02:15 AM
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originally posted by: Dudemo5
LOL. This guy has resorted to calling us shills and claiming we're defending the IRS.


Well, no. I didn't say you were a shill. I just said I wouldn't be surprised if you are getting healthy doses of government money somehow.


I'm sorry, tool moe dee. I like living in a society with roads, bridges, fire departments, police departments, parks, maintenance crews, guys who salt the roads in the winter and fill pot holes in the summer.


All of this stuff could be done other ways. IF people are really willing to pay for it. The only way you'd know that is if they had a choice.

They say people get the government they deserve. I figure that people are willing to pay for something that they actually like and want and need. If they had a choice and they chose not to pay for it, to me that would be fine because they would be sleeping in the bed they made. A government that has to beg for money can only ever be as big as people are willing to pay for. A government that can take any amount of your money it sees fit to take and spend it any way it chooses and thumb it's nose at you if you don't like it is an unaccountable government. In your own words, if you don't like the way they spend your money, you have no right to complain. Move to another country if you don't like the wars or the wall or the immigration policy or the statues or the rednecks who hate everybody.

A government that doesn't have to ask for the money doesn't have to care whether you like what it's doing with it. If you don't like what they're doing right now, you can vote them out until the cows come home and nothing will change but the letters and the faces. They'll just play musical chairs, make empty promises and keep on as they have been. The only way you have any say whatsoever is if you can say no when payday comes. That's a vote that counts.
edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 02:43 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

That is a big if, in capitals even.

Libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism have faith that people will do the right thing. They often don't.


(post by BrianFlanders removed for a manners violation)

posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 02:59 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: BrianFlanders

That is a big if, in capitals even.

Libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism have faith that people will do the right thing. They often don't.



But the same applies to big government. You have to just trust them to do the right thing and not go Joe Stalin on you one fine day while you're pecking away on your craptacular Chinese made keyboard. This forum wouldn't exist if people trusted the government. Or if the government could be trusted.

Again, what you want is SOME kind of balance. As it stands, the average tax payer has absolutely no bargaining power whatsoever. The power lies entirely with the government. And someday, this system is going to tip into totalitarianism.


edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:04 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

Yes it does, but it doesn't negate what I posted.

ETA: Balance is what you have. The government steals as much as it can without causing a revolution.
edit on 2-9-2017 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:09 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: BrianFlanders

That is a big if, in capitals even.

Libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism have faith that people will do the right thing. They often don't.



Also...

Let's put it this way. If your local government asks for money for the fire department and you say no and your house burns down with your family in it while you're away, that's really tragic but what happened? You learned a lesson. You discovered that the fire department is actually necessary. How many times are people going to make a mistake like that if the consequences are real and obvious?

On the other hand, if the government wants a billion dollars for landscaping and the people only pay as much as they think landscaping should cost, there probably won't be the same kind of dire consequences. They'll just have an ugly city (Or maybe not if there was a lot of padding in there for corruption).

You can't always trust people to do the right thing for other people. But you can count on people to act in their own best interest. Most of the time. And if they don't, I guess darwin gets them and we're not really losing that much.

So when you're out driving and you decide to buy new brakes because the old ones are wearing out, you're not thinking about doing the right thing for everyone else. You're thinking you'd better get your brakes fixed because it's gonna suck for you if they fail at the worst possible time. The law doesn't really need to force you to keep your car safe if you have half a brain.

The government did raise taxes on cigarettes but as a former smoker (addict) I can tell you it wasn't the price that caused me to quit. I decided I really didn't want cancer that badly so I acted in my own best interest and quit.

I don't think smoking has gone down because of the price. I think people don't want cancer.


edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-9-2017 by BrianFlanders because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:15 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

I know the gospel according to Mises.

You actually can't count on people to act in their own interest. You can count on others to exploit those in need. That is where libertarianism breaks down.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:22 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: BrianFlanders

I know the gospel according to Mises.

You actually can't count on people to act in their own interest. You can count on others to exploit those in need. That is where libertarianism breaks down.


And it's also where big government breaks down. No one exploits those in need better than the government. The government loves poverty and crime and disaster and all those terrible things it says it's fixing. If it ever actually did fix all those things it wouldn't need more money. So they will dangle some homeless people in front of you on election day. Or some uninsured people (never mind that the reason people need insurance is because the heavily regulated healthcare system has sent prices into the stratosphere).

Yeah. That's a good example of government regulations "working". They made healthcare so expensive you'd have to take out a second mortgage to pay for it without the insurance rackets. Who the government and the doctors and the hospitals and the pharms are all in bed with (naturally). Just one big happy family of extortionists under the proud banner of "doing the right thing" and screwing us all to kingdom come in the process.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:26 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders

I'm not defending big government. I'm saying what you already posted, libertarianism is a pipe-dream.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:30 AM
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a reply to: BrianFlanders




Just wanted to give you a
.

You will likely never get through to those invested heavily in their "team" , I commend you for trying, however I wouldn't be holding my breath.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:34 AM
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a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

That swings both ways.

Thought I would reply since you are giving a thumbs up to a reply to me and I don't have a team.



posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:38 AM
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a reply to: Aristotelian1


Premise 2: Taxation is the taking of somebody's money without their consent.


Those that rule don't need consent... we live on their land

Though taxes are ridiculous because our taxes pay for their lifestyle... not OUR well being

So Yes... Taxes as They use them is totally theft...

Most of it goes in someones pocket...




posted on Sep, 2 2017 @ 03:43 AM
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originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

That swings both ways.

Thought I would reply since you are giving a thumbs up to a reply to me and I don't have a team.






My thumbs up to brian had very little to do with your posts, I apologize if it came across any other way.

The thumbs up is in regards to his stance on this argument, if we were in a fight I would back him all the way.



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