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Is the Jewish Race of Sumerian Origin?

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posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 01:06 AM
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For many years now I have been slowly developing my own understanding of the origins of the Jewish people. Ever since reading in Genesis about where Abraham came from it has seemed almost obvious to me that the Jewish race both began with Abraham and that Abraham came from Sumeria, at the end of the Sumerian civilization. Perhaps there was much upheaval in Ur that displaced the population and they went off in different directions to find new places to live?

In Genesis it states that;

Genesis 12;1: "The Calling of Abram

1Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 2And I will make you a great nation, And I will bless you, And make your name great; And so you shall be a blessing..."

The Hebrew Bible amazes me. Note even the chapter/verse structure here begins "12:1" like a forebearer of the 12 tribes with Abraham as the Patriarch.

Genesis 11:31; "Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there."

Scholars do argue about it, but the general view is that:

Who were the Chaldeans in the Bible?


Question: "Who were the Chaldeans in the Bible?" Answer: The Chaldeans were people who lived in southern Babylonia which would be the southern part of Iraq today. Sometimes the term Chaldeans is used to refer to Babylonians in general, but normally it refers to a specific semi-nomadic tribe that lived in the southern part of Babylon. The land of the Chaldeans was the southern portion of Babylon or Mesopotamia. It was generally thought to be an area about 400 miles long and 100 miles wide alongside of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The Chaldeans are mentioned multiple times in the Bible in both contexts. For example, Genesis 11:28 speaks of Abraham’s father Terah, who was from “Ur of the Chaldeans,” the specific tribe or people known as the Chaldeans. We know from verses such as Genesis 11:31 and Genesis 15:7 that God called Abraham, a Chaldean, out of Ur of the Chaldeans so that Abraham would follow God to the land that God had promised to him and his descendants.


Let's next try and get a rough idea of when Abraham lived:

History of Dating Abraham in the Mesopotamian Account


Today the usual dating of Abraham in Mesopotamia is in either the Ur III or Isin-Larsa periods (see table 1). This depends upon the different interpretations concerning biblical chronology.3 Kenneth Kitchen, for instance, dates the oppression of the Israelites in Egypt from c. 1320–1260/1250 and the Exodus around 1260/1250 and uses a 645 year period between Abraham and the Exodus. This gives a date for the period between Abraham and Joseph from around 1900–1600 (Kitchen 2003, pp. 358–359).4 This would place Abraham during the Isin-Larsa period.




That would place him very roughly about 2,000 years before Christ (4,000 years ago).

Sumer (wikipedia)


Dates c. 4500 – c. 2004 BCE


See, there is a pattern emerging between the end of Sumer and Abraham's time. It is just a notion, but I believe there was upheaval for reasons of may be invasion or other hardships that made it necessary to move.

Also, interesting is the use of the word "Chaldeans" This gives us a hint as to when this account of Abraham may have been written down by Scribes, too.

Chaldea


Chaldea[1] (/kælˈdiːə/) or Chaldaea[2] was a Semitic nation which existed between the late 10th or early 9th and mid-6th centuries BC, after which it and its people were absorbed and assimilated into Babylonia.[3] It was located in the marshy land of the far southeastern corner of Mesopotamia and briefly came to rule Babylon.


The scholars identify Abraham's birth place as the place where the Chaldeans resided. In Abraham's time there was no such thing as a Chaldean: They came much later as we can see from the above; even after David's time (roughly a thousand years before Christ, three thousand years ago).

Personally, I believe that when the Hebrews were taken into exile, by the kingdom that descended from the same source civilization as they did a thousand years before, they discovered writing in earnest. I believe that Babylon had become a centre of civilization where Greek literature was being circulated even (Homer), as well as all manner of Persian ideas and what they absorbed from their many military conquests in the region, and the Hebrew Scribes began writing down in earnest their own sacred texts formerly mainly handed down as oral stories, poetry and song. In the day Homer's poetry would have been regarded as religious. I studied literature at university and I have even noticed some text style similarities between Homer and the accounts of David and the other Hebrew Kings. It is as if the Hebrew Scribes were influenced by the "heroic" literature circulating in Babylon at the time of their exile and captivity.

We can ascertain that Abraham was not originally a Hebrew. He was called Abram and his wife Sarai:

biblehub.com...


Ḥarran, like Ur, was a centre of the worship of the moon-god, Sin.


Abraham: The early years


“Religion in Babylonia at this time was polytheism of the grossest type. The texts mention the names of at least three thousand Sumerian gods, many, of course, titles of one deity. This shows, however, that more than three hundred distinct gods were worshipped.” That was the world of Abraham’s day, and Abraham, if he thought much about gods, held such beliefs for half his life.


Prior to Abraham the Hebrew Old Testament is Sumerian. The account of the flood and all the personages are not Hebrew. Even the account of the Creation is Sumerian in origin. That is my theory and it is the theory of many Scholars of Scripture.

Abraham is the first Jew proper. From him a new people came with their own identity. We are told that this came from many visions and Abraham's God making Himself known to Abraham and making a Covenant with him and his offspring. There is little doubt in my mind that as Sumer went into decline there was much movement and mixing of knowledge. New ideas were born. These ideas were so powerful that they are still in common cultural/religious practice to this very day; four thousand years later.

My thread here is grossly deficient. Scholars write whole books about this stuff. I am just giving you the briefest of sketches about my own and others' theories that the modern Jews originated from Southern Mesopotamia at the end of the Sumerian civilization.


edit on 2-4-2017 by Revolution9 because: (no reason given)




posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 01:31 AM
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For starters, Jewish is not a race...



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 01:42 AM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...


You are denying a race of people with that comment.

Is that all you have to say? Your reply is a grotesque joke. Speak some sanity or hold your tongue, mate.

Four thousand years is plenty long enough to call yourself a race. There are much younger cultures that identify racially. If the Jews are not a race then neither are the Celts or the ancient Romans, Egyptians, Greeks, British or Irish. Everyone had to originate from somewhere and ultimately from the same source in the beginning (though that could have happened in multi geographical locations in part).

Why do you deny a people their heritage? Your behavior is barbaric and uncivilized. What is your motivation for denying Jewish people their history and RACE?

I regard them as a race. I use the word with its proper definition:

dictionary.cambridge.org...

"a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group:"

"[ C, + sing/pl verb ] a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc.:
The British are an island race."

Your post is Orwellian doublespeak, trying to even deny the correct definition of the word "race" and your intention is to deny a people their history and identity; utterly despicable and grossly BARBARIC.

No nothing from you, just a one liner totally vile anti Semitic statement, the kind of statement HITLER or GOEBBELS would have made. Well done you.


edit on 2-4-2017 by Revolution9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 01:50 AM
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originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

There are much younger cultures that identify racially.

Culture has nothing to do with race.

If the Jews are not a race then neither are the Celts or the ancient Romans, Egyptians or Greeks

That is correct.

No nothing from you, just a one liner totally vile anti Semitic statement, the kind of statement HITLER or GOEBBELS would have made.

How is what I said anti-Semitic? Take your persecution complex somewhere else.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 01:59 AM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

There are much younger cultures that identify racially.

Culture has nothing to do with race.

If the Jews are not a race then neither are the Celts or the ancient Romans, Egyptians or Greeks

That is correct.

No nothing from you, just a one liner totally vile anti Semitic statement, the kind of statement HITLER or GOEBBELS would have made.

How is what I said anti-Semitic? Take your persecution complex somewhere else.


I already informed you what the word "race" means. You have no argument to offer. You are just wanting to be a bully and attempt to derail my very well written and reasoned thread. All those I mentioned are races of people. We have to use words to describe our world the best we can. We must have correct definitions because we will no longer understand what each of us is saying if we don't. That is why your doublespeak infests civility so and must be pointed out whenever it attempts to derail language and its sanctity. Stop being such a Barbarian.

I will no longer address you. Your comments are not intellectually worth bothering with. Why are you making a fool of yourself like this? Why not try to engage with the subject rather than attacking me? Are you jealous of me or something? Or do you dislike me because of my RACE?

The Cambridge Dictionary and the Oxford Dictionary use the definition of "race" as I use it. You don't agree with that.

Go and start your own bloody language then. See how many people will want to use it.

"Culture" is an idiosyncrasy of race. You should know that by now. Where I used the word "culture" I meant to use that word. Where I used the word "race" I MEANT to use the word.

Why don't do you get some education? There are resources for continued adult learning.


edit on 2-4-2017 by Revolution9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:02 AM
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originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...


You are denying a race of people with that comment.

Is that all you have to say? Your reply is a grotesque joke. Speak some sanity or hold your tongue, mate.



Hey why deny what is truth? Jews are not really a race. Jews are divided up into groups. Ashkenaz are from central Europe, they are German Rhinelanders and Poles originally wit an input of Sephardim during the reign of Polish King Kassimir who took in some during the Inquisition. Sephardics from Spain indeed really north Africa for five hundred years. Then there are Mizrahi from the middle east like Yemen/Iraq. Then there are Falasha from Ethiopia. Then Indian Jews and Chinese Jews. You been to Israel? There is NO WAY a whiter than white skinned Jew from Moscow originally is the same race as a black Jew from Ethiopia. It's just not real.

Maybe before the holocaust when 92% of Jews were Askenaz yes they were more of a race but now they make up only 70% since they were hit in the death camps and other types of Jew did not.

Even if you take the Ashkenaz aside, there is no way they are a race. Sure 80% of the male side does originate from the Levant in studies, BUT the female side is nearly ALL north Italian, these were converts when the original Jewish male traders settled in north Italy and took LOCAL wives.

Jews are not a race.........................................



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:04 AM
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originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

There are much younger cultures that identify racially.

Culture has nothing to do with race.

If the Jews are not a race then neither are the Celts or the ancient Romans, Egyptians or Greeks

That is correct.

No nothing from you, just a one liner totally vile anti Semitic statement, the kind of statement HITLER or GOEBBELS would have made.

How is what I said anti-Semitic? Take your persecution complex somewhere else.

You are just wanting to be a bully and attempt to derail my very well written and reasoned thread.

Actually, I was attempting to address an incorrect statement in your thread (and in the title). That's hardly derailing.


Why not try to engage with the subject rather than attacking me.

Says the person who immediately compared me to Hitler....



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:08 AM
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originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance

originally posted by: Revolution9

originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

There are much younger cultures that identify racially.

Culture has nothing to do with race.

If the Jews are not a race then neither are the Celts or the ancient Romans, Egyptians or Greeks

That is correct.

No nothing from you, just a one liner totally vile anti Semitic statement, the kind of statement HITLER or GOEBBELS would have made.

How is what I said anti-Semitic? Take your persecution complex somewhere else.

You are just wanting to be a bully and attempt to derail my very well written and reasoned thread.

Actually, I was attempting to address an incorrect statement in your thread (and in the title). That's hardly derailing.


Why not try to engage with the subject rather than attacking me.

Says the person who immediately compared me to Hitler....


That is because you said something that Hitler would have said to deny the Jewish people their identity.

I have used the word "race" according to the Oxford English Dictionary and the Cambridge Dictionary. I am NOT going to use your definition because it has no authority and is being used politically to diminish the identity of a racial group of people.

Of course Jewish people have intermarried. This has nothing to do with the thread anyhow. My thread is about the Sumerian origin of the original Jews.

I don't understand the silly games you play and how you gang up on people. You have no intellectual civility. I would much rather you had the guts to address my thread. That would have been welcome, as criticism, etc.


edit on 2-4-2017 by Revolution9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:10 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Yes, they are a race. You could have said the same thing about any other race of people.

Are the Native Americans a race?

They came from many places originally.

I have written what I have written. It makes intellectual sense. You have NOTHING to say about that. You are just beating me up on a word that I have used correctly.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:17 AM
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Excellent sleuthing, OP. It makes a fantastic amount of sense that any political & cultural upheaval at the time would have lead to more or less a simultaneous crisis of both established faith & identity among wanderers who eventually gave rise to the Hebrews.


originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

If we're going to split hairs about it, sure, we know that. But way to detract from a well-thought out OP topic. If I can overlook the race V culture thing in favor of paying attention to lining up old stories with a window in history, so can you.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:20 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9
The short answer is that coming from Mesopotamia doesn't mean being Sumerian, because Mesopotamian history is more complicated than that.
One easy way to follow it is the Penguin Atlas of Ancient History as devised by Colin McEvedy, which takes snapshots through time.
To cut a long story short, the whole of the so-called Fertile Crescent (with Palestine on one side and Mesopotamia on the other) was vulnerable to periodic incursions from the nomadic peoples of the desert, who would wander through and eventually move in and take over. The Moslem outburst after Mohammed was only the most recent of these.
So at a fairly early stage the Sumerians fell under the power of the Akkadians, the first real empire builders.
For the people of Abraham, we should look to the Arameans who also wandered in from the desert region, founding Babylon in the east, becoming Syria in the north, and also entering Palestine.
This history is hinted at in one of the Hebrew rituals; "A wandering Syrian was my father, and he went down into Egypt..." (Deuteronomy ch26 v5).


edit on 2-4-2017 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:21 AM
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originally posted by: Nyiah
Excellent sleuthing, OP. It makes a fantastic amount of sense that any political & cultural upheaval at the time would have lead to more or less a simultaneous crisis of both established faith & identity among wanderers who eventually gave rise to the Hebrews.


originally posted by: AdmireTheDistance
For starters, Jewish is not a race...

If we're going to split hairs about it, sure, we know that. But way to detract from a well-thought out OP topic. If I can overlook the race V culture thing in favor of paying attention to lining up old stories with a window in history, so can you.


Thanks, at least there is one sane person here.

I am not saying I am right about this. I have been reading about it for many years. It is hard to write all this in just a short thread and then have to be attacked just for wanting to share some information.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9

A Falasha from Ethiopia is not the same race as an Ashkenaz from Moscow. likewise a Mizrahhi from Yemen is not the same race as s Cochin Jew from China. Are you a Stevie Wonder or something?



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:24 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9

Oxford English Dictionary


race2 noun 1Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics. ‘people of all races, colours, and creeds’ 1.1mass noun The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this. 1.2 A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group. ‘we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then’ 1.3 A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features. ‘the upper classes thought of themselves as a race apart’ 1.4Biology A population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies. ‘people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct’ 1.5 (in non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures. ‘a member of the human race’ ‘the race of birds’ 1.6literary A group of people descended from a common ancestor. ‘a prince of the race of Solomon’ 1.7archaic mass noun Ancestry. ‘two coursers of ethereal race’ Usage In recent years, the associations of race with the ideologies and theories that grew out of the work of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists has led to the use of the word race itself becoming problematic. Although still used in general contexts, it is now often replaced by other words which are less emotionally charged, such as people(s) or community Origin Early 16th century (denoting a group with common features): via French from Italian razza, of unknown ultimate origin.


Cambridge English Dictionary


C1 [ C or U ] a group, especially of people, with particular similar physical characteristics, who are considered as belonging to the same type, or the fact of belonging to such a group: People of many different races were living side by side. Discrimination on grounds of race will not be tolerated. An increasing number of people in the country are of mixed race (= with parents of different races). ​ [ C, + sing/pl verb ] a group of people who share the same language, history, characteristics, etc.: The British are an island race.



edit on 2-4-2017 by Revolution9 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:27 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9

Well I tried to write a nice thread for you ATS with some real merit. However, I have been treated like # again. Just like every time I try to write something here.

It is not a very nice environment to operate in intellectually. I hope that the members will not let it get too much worse as it will lose all credibility if it gets much nastier and uncivilized. The kinds of members that do this are your worst enemy if you want an environment where knowledge can be shared among us. The ancient Greeks would not have behaved so childishly and barbarically in debate.

Ciao for now!



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:28 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9

To be fair, I think it would be easier to go with Culture in this instance and not just Race. Not to satiate the people not even reading your OP, but to allow yourself one less (albeit minor) nitpick to detract from further narrowing down region & culture origins.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:29 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI
P.S. The Sumerians themselves have a different origin from the desert tribes. Archaeology and Genesis ch11 v2 show them entering Mesopotamia from the east, through a valley from the mountains.
I have a private theory that they reached that valley by following the plateau down from the north, the highland region which has the sources of Tigris and Euphrates, the probable location of Eden.
They were the ancestors of everybody else in culture rather than genetics.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:32 AM
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The egyptian pharoah Amenhotep IV who latter changed his name to Akhenaten tried to implement a monotheistic religion in Egypt but was never accepted by many of the high priest. Some have suggested that Akhenaten himself was Moses or one of Akhenaten high priests started the exodus for Egyptians that wern't allowed to practice their religion in their own land.

The timeline of Amenhotep IV and Moses is close. It might be just co-incidence that two monotheistic religions were born at roughly the same time, in the same country. Perhaps not.



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 02:39 AM
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Transylvanian, red haired Ubaid Scythians

Second



posted on Apr, 2 2017 @ 03:17 AM
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a reply to: Revolution9

Thanks for your OP I enjoyed it and found it useful for some current ideas I am going over. Sorry to see that the general direction of the post got misdirected. The best way to describe that for me would be using the word lineage. A lineage with a particular standard that guides future generations towards a certain focus. As has happened with the Jews, some individuals decide to openly drop away from that an others to join in. Take the Celtic lineage, there are plenty of people that hold the features or that lineage. But, do not have any idea about their own history. Something remains, but there seems to be no unity of view. I have personally met Sepharad jews who know not where they come from. Nothing like the inquisition to torture your view out of you!




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