Whoa now,

Repeat fantasy? What fantasy might we be talking about? Would it be the one where a man walks on water?? Noooo. How about when a man rises from the dead??? Noooo. Wait I know, I must have been talking about the time when a man made water, bread and fish from thin air!!!! Nooo, that wasn't it either. Could it have been rising a man from the dead???? Noooo. What fantasy was it that I referred too. Hmmmm. I still can't remember. Oh I know!!!! It was the one where the man seperated an entire sea!.....No, nevermind that wasn't it. Could it have been when a cloud spoke to a man? No. Maybe when a man spoke and a fig tree rotted away. Nope. I know, it was the one where flames apeared over some mens heads! Nope.....

Tell me jake, since you are the one who said it, what fantasy am I telling?

Originally posted by Seapeople
Whoa now,

Repeat fantasy? What fantasy might we be talking about? Would it be the one where a man walks on water?? Noooo. How about when a man rises from the dead??? Noooo. Wait I know, I must have been talking about the time when a man made water, bread and fish from thin air!!!! Nooo, that wasn't it either. Could it have been rising a man from the dead???? Noooo. What fantasy was it that I referred too. Hmmmm. I still can't remember. Oh I know!!!! It was the one where the man seperated an entire sea!.....No, nevermind that wasn't it. Could it have been when a cloud spoke to a man? No. Maybe when a man spoke and a fig tree rotted away. Nope. I know, it was the one where flames apeared over some mens heads! Nope.....

Tell me jake, since you are the one who said it, what fantasy am I telling?

That had me craking up and i almost spilled my coffee! Dammit seapeople!
By the way..to have physical evidence and a logical theory to go with it...um..yea in my books thats a HARD FACT!

Fact:
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed

Fantasy:
A capricious or fantastic idea; a conceit.
Fiction characterized by highly fanciful or supernatural elements..
An example of such fiction.
An imagined event or sequence of mental images, such as a daydream, usually fulfilling a wish or psychological need.

I think jake learnt something new today!

I do my best I_s_i_s. It is amazing to me, that everyday I hear the same rhetoric. The same nonsense. Nonsense that is not even researched at all. I take the time to research it and I am criticized for it. I guess some people want to stay dumb. I try to keep my hopes for humanity up by adding humor. Im glad I made you laugh! There is still hope for humanity...

Related sidenote for Isis. A recent special on the History Channel gave really strong arguments for Isis being the template for the Mary figure in Christian lore. Of course, being marketed to Gentile Roman pagans, they borrowed heavily from existing beliefs, like gods impregnating women, etc. to bring about "special" leaders to man.

Really good. It's called Sex in the Bible if you get a chance to see it.

Originally posted by Seapeople
I do my best I_s_i_s. It is amazing to me, that everyday I hear the same rhetoric. The same nonsense. Nonsense that is not even researched at all. I take the time to research it and I am criticized for it. I guess some people want to stay dumb. I try to keep my hopes for humanity up by adding humor. Im glad I made you laugh! There is still hope for humanity...

Same sort of rhetoric that I keep hearing from people who believe in evolution.

Why does it bother people so much to even entertain an idea that is supported by facts? No, we do not have visual, real time proof of large evolutionary steps, but we do have our own logic. When pressed Knight, I guarantee I could make you admit that evolution does occur, at least on some level. That guarantee is based on scientific observations and statistical mathematics. Denying the information that sits in front of your face such as this is akin to saying humans do not know how to add and subtract.

You say that I am entertaining some sort of crazy idea when I speak of evolution, yet your belief is that "poof" he walked on water. Whenever you see someone walk on water, split a sea in two, rise from the dead, or perform any type of miracle along these lines, come back and show me. In the mean time I WILL SHOW YOU WERE EVOLUTION HAS OCCURED if even on a minute level.

Rhetoric? You are in denial, its sad, and pitiful. Why does it bother you so much?

yeesh, you're all getting so personal.

Well, I believe in evolution, happy? Micro-evolution obviously exists, but macro? Oh gosh, I know there are remains of supposed "homo-habilis" and other prehuman creatures, but GAAHH, idunno. Whether evolution exists or not, one could look at it as God's work.

God created animals before humans right? And it's suspected that He didnt make the world in seven days, but in seven intervals which could each be eons in length. The animals could have evolved into humans???

Originally posted by RANT
Related sidenote for Isis. A recent special on the History Channel gave really strong arguments for Isis being the template for the Mary figure in Christian lore. Of course, being marketed to Gentile Roman pagans, they borrowed heavily from existing beliefs, like gods impregnating women, etc. to bring about "special" leaders to man.

Really good. It's called Sex in the Bible if you get a chance to see it.

Yes that is an interesting thing to look into. THanks RANT.

God created animals before humans right? And it's suspected that He didnt make the world in seven days, but in seven intervals which could each be eons in length. The animals could have evolved into humans???

But that contradicts the DIRECT holy involvment that bible supports regarding the creation of humans.

Originally posted by goronish
yeesh, you're all getting so personal.

Well, I believe in evolution, happy? Micro-evolution obviously exists, but macro? Oh gosh, I know there are remains of supposed "homo-habilis" and other prehuman creatures, but GAAHH, idunno. Whether evolution exists or not, one could look at it as God's work.

God created animals before humans right? And it's suspected that He didnt make the world in seven days, but in seven intervals which could each be eons in length. The animals could have evolved into humans???

You can say it is suspected he didn't make it in seven days, but then you would be going against what the bible says. If the bible says seven days, and you say millions of years, then what about when the bible says 'global flood". What I can't understand about comments like that is how a christian does not see how foolish it is to make one.

You say...well the bible says this, but it really means that. Then soemone like me comes along, and you quote the bible. Isn't that a little ironic?

Tell me all ye christians, something that I have been wondering for ages. Where do you draw the line? You quote the bible and preach "the word of God" all day long until it contradicts itself or a problem arises, then you tell us that we are not reading with our hearts or some line of BS like that. You tell us, y"yes it says that, but it really means that".

In reality, you have one of two things. You have your own opinion (which I havent seen someone with one of those who is christian on this forum, or in my life for that matter) or you have someone elses opinion. The second is much more common. This reality means that you disregard portions of the bible that don't agree with reality, or logic. You disregard the contradictions, and explain them away by saying "you just don't read with your heart" BS. You want to make people take your nonsesne more serious? Abide by EVERY WORD of the bible. The word of God is not to be changed right? Don't interpret direct statements to mean anything else besides what they say.

Simply put, the bible says seven days, not seven days but I really mean a million years.

By the way, as far as the micro-macro evolution thing. Micro and Macro evolution are names pushed forth by christians. We wont get into that. What I will get into is this:

You said, "I believe in evolution...the micro kind". Tell me then, if a micro evolution occurs, couldn't another happen after that? Yes or No? What about after that? Yes or no? If you answered yes to these questions, which you really had no choice in doing, then what happens, lets say after the 10 billionth micro evolution? Wouldn't it be likely that 10 billion genetic adaptations might make for a different look and existence of any given species? Or are you going to tell me that you believe in something, but then again you don't?

one thing that really does annoy me on these forum is all these christians saying they believe in micro-evolution but not meso-macro evolution. Why would the biological principle of *random genetic mutations* occur in the microscopic world, but not the macroscopic? it makes no sense to me. Reguardless of the size or complexity... certain genetic data mutates randomly, for the better or the worse. what boundries stop complex organisms DNA from having random genetic mistakes in ofspring?
Its just that micro evolution takes so little time and can be observed within a person lifetime, where evolution of complex organism takes many many years and big changes dont occurs within peoples lifetime.
Ill get this straight, if micro-evolution exsist, then so does *random genetic mutation* in the *DNA* of these micro-oragisms. Then why the hell doesnt this natually occuring process happen in animals that are just more complex? what STOPS this from happening, biolgical reasons why genetic mutations dont occur in complex animals, which over a long period of time turn into noticable changes?

Cheeser, the answer to that is simple. It does occur.

What needs to be realized is that christians who post on this forum had someone tell them that, never questioned it, believed it to be true, and then tell it to us as if it was fact. Christians do not think everything through by intention. They purposely ignore facts because the facts cause problems in there faith. As a result, they hear other facts from pastors and other such uneducated idiots who tell them what they should believe, how they should live their life ect. They follow these people blindly because they share the same misguided belief in whatever nonsense it happens to be that day, never questioning them. Christians intentionally do so. It is really a shame that so many people are intentionally less educated than they could be. Instead of embracing what wonderful things we know, they reject them because they are afraid to live life without a God that fixes everything, and destroys it, and .... well you know.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Are their any christians in here who believe at least in part that evolution occurs? Catholics, pentecostals, baptist....ect. Anyone at all? I am curious to see how you rationalize the two together.

Personally, I don't think evolution in any way forbids a God's existence. However, it does mean that some of the issues in the bible could not be true. Coincedentally, these issues are the ones that seem impossible by normal earthly standards in the first place.

The answer to your question is in the christian bible.

Genesis says God created everything, including man. There is nothing about evolution.

Is this important to salvation and believing the NT?
Lets look at what christ says

Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

God says dont add or take away.
So, can a christian do this and still claim salvation through Jesus Christ?

Jesus Himself made this world, and the words in Genesis

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Genesis belongs to Jesus. But do we really have to believe that God created man?
Let me ask you, Can you ask a God to save you, that you deny made you?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

EVERY WORD out of the mouth of God.
EVERY word.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus Himself said it. So what does that mean about people who claim to be christian, but call God a liar in Genesis?
It means they are christian in label only.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Its pretty clear. They are not christian who believe evolution.

Now look at the next verse

1Ti 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti 6:2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

The bible makes it clear what God thinks of those people.

Evolution is false science. None of it complies with the scientific method.
So called christians chose to believe it because they did not want to be set apart from society.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Those people have denied Christs words, and Christ said he will deny them on that day.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


For the non christian here, none of that was for you. Im sure it can be helpful to you in determining the fruits of so called christians, but this was intended for them.

Ok jake, I am going to play this game with you.

You said that the reason you do not believe in evolution, is due to it not being mentioned in the genesis version of a creation story in the bible. You cited several verses in the bible regarding it being the word of God. You said that the bible should be taken literally and "EVERY WORD" should be followed. You said that evolution does not comply with science.

Ok, I just wanted to get some feelings that you had given us all out in the open.

Deu 22:23 If a damsel [that is] a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, [being] in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.


Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Interesting. Now, who wants to take a bet that Jake tells us that the bible doesn't actually mean that? I would bet that he interprets this passage a little differently than in the literal sense. If he does, wouldn't you agree that he is violating his "Every Word" clause from above? Or does he agree that we should stone rape victims?


Continuing on the every word thingamajig he put us on.

John1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."

Exudus 33:11 "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."

Maybe John didn't remember, oh wait, that wouoldn't even matter because:

Exudus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live."


So which is it? Which "word for word" do you choose Jake?

So evolution isn't in the bible is it. Well, what would you say about original sin, and god telling his people in the old testament that sin is not carried from previous generations? Kinda renders a jesus useless doesn't it? I wonder if it says that anywhere....or even maybe in 7 different places....or something like that. Who knows.

I will say this again. I bet I can get you to admit evolution occurs. You believe in it. You live your life in certain ways because of it, and yet you are too niave to notice. Nice. Take me up on my offer. Go ahead.

(Note to everyone following this thread, if jake accepts the offer, he will suddenly disapear when he realizes his mistake)

jake why do we even do this?


Moses can't contradict himself. we went over this already.


Exodus 33:11

" And the lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man is wont to speak to his freind "



Exodus 33:29

" And again he said: thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me and live. 23 " And i will
take away my hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: butmy face thou canst see "



The lord spoke to moses in a different way, taking on a different form. Moses canot contradict himself. Its just wrong interpreting that causes all this arguing.


How can you not understand that?

[edit on 13-2-2005 by Truth]

Thanks truth.

I pretty much discount seapeople. That one is here just to run its mouth at people. Nothing substantial comes from it.

Like you said, that was all covered.

How convenient. When someone comes along, and does the math. When someone comes along and looks at the words of the bible. When someone comes along and calls your bluff.....you conveniently "discount him".

I have been reading from this forum for over two years and posting for over a year. I have seen many people come in and intentionally lie and other such things many times. I have never seen someone come here, lie, get caught and called on it, and still have the courage to criticize others. You are definitely unique.

well..my husband is a Christian and he believs in the Evolution. In fact the Book of Genesis describes Evolution very clearly, it descirbes the begining of all life in water. Sir Darwin himslef admited that Evolution would not have been possible without Gods hand. The Bible says God created the world in 7 days, and it also explains that << ...one day with the Lord, is as 1000 years...>>...sadly both atheists, evolutionist and christians rather spend their time, banging heads, mocking eachother instead of STUDYING what is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES !...Evolution is described in the Bible, and Sir Darwin stated tha life could not come from explosions...Now get your heads out of the bucket and face it ...GOD EXHISTS AND SO DID EVOLUTION ! (same species evolution that is)

Originally posted by RANT
Related sidenote for Isis. A recent special on the History Channel gave really strong arguments for Isis being the template for the Mary figure in Christian lore. Of course, being marketed to Gentile Roman pagans, they borrowed heavily from existing beliefs, like gods impregnating women, etc. to bring about "special" leaders to man.

Really good. It's called Sex in the Bible if you get a chance to see it.

Both Egyptians, Romans and Greeks that converted to Christianity substituted thei main female Goddess with Mary ... The Roman Catholic Chruch converted VESTALS into NUNS.... Isis, Ishtar, Venus, Inanna...<< The LAdy of The Lake >>....all subsituted by MAry ...funny thing ... Christians are mocked for believeing in God, but than there are all sorts of NEO-PAGANS who follow and pray to other GODS... so what is the difference between praying to GOD or praying to ISIS...????

hhhmmmmmmmm...... ISIS was a goddess of a civilization who got wipped??? so much for the great protection of ISIS????

Picturing <>> in argument ....MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOURS !...ROFL....

Originally posted by BaastetNoir
well..my husband is a Christian and he believs in the Evolution. In fact the Book of Genesis describes Evolution very clearly, it descirbes the begining of all life in water. Sir Darwin himslef admited that Evolution would not have been possible without Gods hand. The Bible says God created the world in 7 days, and it also explains that << ...one day with the Lord, is as 1000 years...>>...sadly both atheists, evolutionist and christians rather spend their time, banging heads, mocking eachother instead of STUDYING what is RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR FACES !...Evolution is described in the Bible, and Sir Darwin stated tha life could not come from explosions...Now get your heads out of the bucket and face it ...GOD EXHISTS AND SO DID EVOLUTION ! (same species evolution that is)

Maybe you can show me that life in the water
What version of the bible do you use?
Its not in the bible that christians use.

Twist it to fit your view so that the eolutionist will not scorn you.
Jesus wrote Genesis. It will be you that has to explain why you called him a liar on it.

Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
you can twist that last one if you want to...but if so...every day is the sabbath day