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posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:33 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: HeathenJessie

I voted for independence in the Scottish referendum but there isn't a patriotic bone in my body. I voted to break free from the corruption endemic in the UK institutions. No monarchy, no EU and no Westminster, how cool would that be? That was the only time I have ever voted but I wouldn't make that choice again. The violence threatened by the loyalists showed me that independence would have torn Scotland apart.





Ok...so what about the rest of the UK...do they deserve to live with the corruption that you want to get away from?

Isn't Scotland packing up and running away kinda cowardly?




posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:34 AM
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originally posted by: HeathenJessie
You know what we could solve this pretty easily.

Since pretty much all of your arguments are based on this assumption that people's views have changed post-brexit...and since you're happy to have referendums willy-nilly...

We should have a referendum and the question should be...should scotland have another independence referendum.

If the yes vote wins we can go ahead...if the no vote wins forget about it.

But you know as well as I do, and everyone else here...even if no did win such a referendum...by a huge margin, y'all would still bang on about it.

You'd still speak on behalf of everyone, and tell us that people want it. You don't care what the majority want, if you did this whole debate wouldn't even exist you would have accepted the results of previous referendums.

I'd respect you a lot more if you simply told the truth...you don't care what others want, you have no interest in what's best for anyone else...you want what you want.

And expect that what you want should be as important to me an everyone else as it is to you.

But you'll never be honest...this is totally pointless.


I am the new version saying as the circumstances have changed massively it would be entirely appropriate to have a referendum to see what people want.

You are the one saying giving people that democratic choice is wrong.

Who is really trying to speak for everyone here?

Oh and another long post rather than show were i have apparently contradicted myself.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:36 AM
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originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: HeathenJessie

Nope generalised derogatory statements about whole groups of people make you a bigot. Nothing to do with your views on independence.


Statements based on what I've seen, read and heard over the course of my 26 years as a Scot.

You belong a part of the EU, they flout that sword at every opportunity, too...anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Oops...is, is that another sweeping, general statement? I believe it is, could I be more bigot?



You are of course entitled to your opinion about your fellow Scots as per the posts I replied to.

People reading your opinion are entitled to make their own judgement on your character.

Do however find it odd that someone with your apparent obsession with patriotism would have such a low view off their fellow countrymen.


And just to clarify, I'm not claiming to be patriotic, I never did.

I'd expect anyone who is hell bent on independence would be...I find it quite contradictory that you want independence but then go on to claim that it has nothing to do with patriotism...

But then you've spent the last 6 or 7 pages constantly contradicting yourself, it's abou the EU, it's not about the EU...it's about the EU...it's not about the EU...etc


Pleasease reply to the post were i have contradicted myself.


I already have...your entire position has been contradictory...read the last sentence in my last reply...or play dumb and pretend like you don't understand what I mean.

My guess is you'll opt for the latter.


So you can't actually reply to a contradiction then.

My position has been entirely consistent.

Do you want me to explain it again?


Like I said, I already have.

I accused you of contradicting yourself more than once, and have responded already to almost all of your posts.

Why would I waste time responding again?


It would have taken less time to reply to my claimed contradiction than to write a new post.

Have you got anything?


I've already responded to it, do you have some mental block that prevents you from seeing things from another perspective?

You're incapable of understanding, or you'd have already noticed. I can't help you.


You really haven't.

Hit the little quotation button on any posts of mine you think is contradictory.

Far less time consuming than all these posts claiming something without evidence.
edit on 1-4-2017 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:37 AM
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a reply to: Forensick

I am Scottish but I don't love Scotland, couldn't care less really, it's just this bit of land I happened to be born in. I do care though about the conditions I and others live in. I saw independence as a real opportunity for change.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:37 AM
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originally posted by: djz3ro
That is something we'd have to work out. But if we do gain our independence there is no guarantee we would vote to remain un the E.U, we may well vote to go it alone. The best thing about that is we wouldn't be getting hauled about by the short n' curlies by Westminster or anyone else, our mistakes and our successes would be our own (as opposed to our succeses being British and our failings being Scottish like it is just now, Andy Murray is only British when he's winning, after all).

shouldn't finances be worked out before a vote and the population informed? As a whole GB can leave the EU but how would an independant Scotland get on without GB buffering the finances? And without a good credit rating with the IMF?

Is the desire for independance more about sticking it to the tories? It's not just the Scottish that have disdain for them...


originally posted by: djz3ro
Not likely, that's just what they want us to believe...

The people of Greece and Italy might want you to believe that.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: HeathenJessie

Nope generalised derogatory statements about whole groups of people make you a bigot. Nothing to do with your views on independence.


Statements based on what I've seen, read and heard over the course of my 26 years as a Scot.

You belong a part of the EU, they flout that sword at every opportunity, too...anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Oops...is, is that another sweeping, general statement? I believe it is, could I be more bigot?



You are of course entitled to your opinion about your fellow Scots as per the posts I replied to.

People reading your opinion are entitled to make their own judgement on your character.

Do however find it odd that someone with your apparent obsession with patriotism would have such a low view off their fellow countrymen.



I call a spade a spade...I'm not just going to sing the praises of people simply because we're from the same country...that would be stupid.

I'm down on my fellow countrymen because I'm sick of their petty victim culture and whinging...if you don't like being called these things or people thinking this stuff then maybe you should grow a backbone and stop acting like the perpetual victim....stop blaming England and Westminster for everything.

Would that be the same petty victim culture and whinging from the Brexit camp about the EU.? Maybe you need to stop blaming the EU and Brussels for everything. OH, the Irony is strong in this one.


Where did I blame the EU for anything?

Show me where...this is how this thread works, no?

You make demands and have expectations of me, so you lead the way and show me where.

My Apologies, post ammended.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:39 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
You know what we could solve this pretty easily.

Since pretty much all of your arguments are based on this assumption that people's views have changed post-brexit...and since you're happy to have referendums willy-nilly...

We should have a referendum and the question should be...should scotland have another independence referendum.

If the yes vote wins we can go ahead...if the no vote wins forget about it.

But you know as well as I do, and everyone else here...even if no did win such a referendum...by a huge margin, y'all would still bang on about it.

You'd still speak on behalf of everyone, and tell us that people want it. You don't care what the majority want, if you did this whole debate wouldn't even exist you would have accepted the results of previous referendums.

I'd respect you a lot more if you simply told the truth...you don't care what others want, you have no interest in what's best for anyone else...you want what you want.

And expect that what you want should be as important to me an everyone else as it is to you.

But you'll never be honest...this is totally pointless.


I am the new version saying as the circumstances have changed massively it would be entirely appropriate to have a referendum to see what people want.

You are the one saying giving people that democratic choice is wrong.

Who is really trying to speak for everyone here?

Oh and another long post rather than show were i have apparently contradicted myself.



So any time there's a change we should ask whether Scotland should be independent?

Again...your attitude seems to be - there's been a huge change...this is going to affect Scotland, looking at it from a Scottish perspective.

Why?

You're British.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:46 AM
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originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: Southern Guardian

Her OWN constituency which voted her in Parliament hate her.. She has let EVERY public service she is responsible for go into stagnation whilst she pursues her delusional place in history..

Fact is is Scotland voted to stay in the union..

And she would rather see every Scottish family under the cosh of a foriengn EU tyrannical state to further her OWN xenophobic aims and forget the Democratic will of the Scottish people who was fooled to vote for these fools


I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

I can remember when Scotland was proud of its public services and its education system was held up as a shining example of Scottish accomplishment. We don't hear any of that today. As for Sturgeon, it is clear to me that she has a major Napoleon Complex, or Tiny Woman Syndrome, if you will, and will sacrifice anything or anyone at any cost, to get her way. She is a small person in every way and she is in a position of power. She is bitter, evil, and dangerous.
edit on 1-4-2017 by CulturalResilience because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-4-2017 by CulturalResilience because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:46 AM
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originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie
You know what we could solve this pretty easily.

Since pretty much all of your arguments are based on this assumption that people's views have changed post-brexit...and since you're happy to have referendums willy-nilly...

We should have a referendum and the question should be...should scotland have another independence referendum.

If the yes vote wins we can go ahead...if the no vote wins forget about it.

But you know as well as I do, and everyone else here...even if no did win such a referendum...by a huge margin, y'all would still bang on about it.

You'd still speak on behalf of everyone, and tell us that people want it. You don't care what the majority want, if you did this whole debate wouldn't even exist you would have accepted the results of previous referendums.

I'd respect you a lot more if you simply told the truth...you don't care what others want, you have no interest in what's best for anyone else...you want what you want.

And expect that what you want should be as important to me an everyone else as it is to you.

But you'll never be honest...this is totally pointless.


I am the new version saying as the circumstances have changed massively it would be entirely appropriate to have a referendum to see what people want.

You are the one saying giving people that democratic choice is wrong.

Who is really trying to speak for everyone here?

Oh and another long post rather than show were i have apparently contradicted myself.



So any time there's a change we should ask whether Scotland should be independent?

Again...your attitude seems to be - there's been a huge change...this is going to affect Scotland, looking at it from a Scottish perspective.

Why?

You're British.


I'm Scottish, British and European.

Not sure what that has to do with it.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:46 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: HeathenJessie

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: HeathenJessie

Nope generalised derogatory statements about whole groups of people make you a bigot. Nothing to do with your views on independence.


Statements based on what I've seen, read and heard over the course of my 26 years as a Scot.

You belong a part of the EU, they flout that sword at every opportunity, too...anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

Oops...is, is that another sweeping, general statement? I believe it is, could I be more bigot?



You are of course entitled to your opinion about your fellow Scots as per the posts I replied to.

People reading your opinion are entitled to make their own judgement on your character.

Do however find it odd that someone with your apparent obsession with patriotism would have such a low view off their fellow countrymen.


And just to clarify, I'm not claiming to be patriotic, I never did.

I'd expect anyone who is hell bent on independence would be...I find it quite contradictory that you want independence but then go on to claim that it has nothing to do with patriotism...

But then you've spent the last 6 or 7 pages constantly contradicting yourself, it's abou the EU, it's not about the EU...it's about the EU...it's not about the EU...etc


Pleasease reply to the post were i have contradicted myself.


I already have...your entire position has been contradictory...read the last sentence in my last reply...or play dumb and pretend like you don't understand what I mean.

My guess is you'll opt for the latter.


So you can't actually reply to a contradiction then.

My position has been entirely consistent.

Do you want me to explain it again?


Like I said, I already have.

I accused you of contradicting yourself more than once, and have responded already to almost all of your posts.

Why would I waste time responding again?


It would have taken less time to reply to my claimed contradiction than to write a new post.

Have you got anything?


I've already responded to it, do you have some mental block that prevents you from seeing things from another perspective?

You're incapable of understanding, or you'd have already noticed. I can't help you.


You really haven't.

Hit the little quotation button on any posts of mine you think is contradictory.

Far less time consuming than all these posts claiming something without evidence.


You know what, you're deliberately being ignorant, now.

I already pointed out your contradiction and you denied it...your contradiction is this - for the last time:

Scotland deserved an indy ref because the brexit vote has changed things.

We know...we voted for that change...the UK voted for that change, your contradition is that you are in delnial that you are British first, Scottish second. Your contradition is that you on one hand claim that Brexit gives Scotland grounds for a referendun them later told me that it had nothing to do with the EU.

Your contradition is that you are happy to use Brexit as an axcuse to push your narrative based solely on your position and view from a Scottish perspective when the brexit vote was a UK vote...you weren't voting as a Scot but as a Brit.

You on one hand claim that it has nothing to do with the EU...which you most certainly did, don't lie any more and pretend you didn't because you know you did.

You want to use Brexit as an excuse then claim Brexit has nothoing to do with it. you ackowledge that the Brexit vote was a UK vote not a Scottish one, but still speak about how it affects Scotland as an individual nation...tha tis a contradiction.

Now that I've wasted time telling you that which you were already aware or...can you stop talking crap and fixating on it, I know it distracts everyone from the real debate and that's your intention but you've been called out on it now, ok?

Now stfu about it. If you keep playing dumb then I'll continue to call you dumb, don't whing when I do.

Nobody can speak or think for you, you lack the ability to be honest. It's your problem, fella, not mine.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:47 AM
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originally posted by: CulturalResilience

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: Southern Guardian

Her OWN constituency which voted her in Parliament hate her.. She has let EVERY public service she is responsible for go into stagnation whilst she pursues her delusional place in history..

Fact is is Scotland voted to stay in the union..

And she would rather see every Scottish family under the cosh of a foriengn EU tyrannical state to further her OWN xenophobic aims and forget the Democratic will of the Scottish people who was fooled to vote for these fools


I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course
as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

I can remember when Scotland was proud of its public services and its education system was held up as a shining example of Scottish accomplishment. We don't hear any of that today. As for Sturgeon, it is clear to me that she has a major Napoleon Complex, or Tiny Women Syndrome, if you will, and will sacrifice anything or anyone at any cost, to get her way. She is a small person in every way and she is in a position of power. She is bitter, evil, and dangerous.


Have they just got sick in the last year as the SNP have won pretty convincingly in the last few elections.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:50 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: Forensick

I am Scottish but I don't love Scotland, couldn't care less really, it's just this bit of land I happened to be born in. I do care though about the conditions I and others live in. I saw independence as a real opportunity for change.



Mate, I want change, too.

But not just for Scotland, for all of the UK.

Like I said, earlier. It's easy and cowardly for Scotland or even Wales to pack up and run off, start again.

What about the English people?

Folk act like the people of England, all of them, are somehow responsible for Scotland. They're just as pissed off as we are.

We need reform that will be good for all of the UK not just Scotland.

Scotland is being cowardly.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:51 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: Southern Guardian

Her OWN constituency which voted her in Parliament hate her.. She has let EVERY public service she is responsible for go into stagnation whilst she pursues her delusional place in history..

Fact is is Scotland voted to stay in the union..

And she would rather see every Scottish family under the cosh of a foriengn EU tyrannical state to further her OWN xenophobic aims and forget the Democratic will of the Scottish people who was fooled to vote for these fools


I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course
as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

I can remember when Scotland was proud of its public services and its education system was held up as a shining example of Scottish accomplishment. We don't hear any of that today. As for Sturgeon, it is clear to me that she has a major Napoleon Complex, or Tiny Women Syndrome, if you will, and will sacrifice anything or anyone at any cost, to get her way. She is a small person in every way and she is in a position of power. She is bitter, evil, and dangerous.


Have they just got sick in the last year as the SNP have won pretty convincingly in the last few elections.


I can only repeat what he told me, he also said that Scottish Labour is a spent force, and he was expecting considerable gains for the Conservatives in Scotland.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:56 AM
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a reply to: HeathenJessie

Believing that the UK leaving the EU is a major change and that justifies a new independence referendum is not a contradiction. That has been my position throughout the thread, how am i contradicting myself???

Show me where i have said anything different?

If you think i am being off topic then please feel free to alert a mod. I am sure they will amused by your belief that you can decide what people say on ATS.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:56 AM
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a reply to: HeathenJessie



Ok...so what about the rest of the UK...do they deserve to live with the corruption that you want to get away from?

Isn't Scotland packing up and running away kinda cowardly?


The rest of the people in the UK certainly don't deserve to live with corruption but that is their call to make. If Scotland had voted for independence and made a fist of it, then perhaps others might have followed suit. Saying it is cowardly is kind of silly...it could also be called brave. In reality this was a chance for all the people in the UK to have real change in the political arena.
I am not anti English, quite the contrary in fact. I was appalled that during that time the English members of my family had to be careful around the Scottish Nationalist element. Nothing ever happened but the mood wasn't good. As you might gather from my comments, Sturgeon doesn't speak for me regards independence. I have a feeling that any new referendum is doomed to failure as the EU is less popular here than Sturgeon would have us believe.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: CulturalResilience

originally posted by: EvanB
a reply to: Southern Guardian

Her OWN constituency which voted her in Parliament hate her.. She has let EVERY public service she is responsible for go into stagnation whilst she pursues her delusional place in history..

Fact is is Scotland voted to stay in the union..

And she would rather see every Scottish family under the cosh of a foriengn EU tyrannical state to further her OWN xenophobic aims and forget the Democratic will of the Scottish people who was fooled to vote for these fools


I spent a lot of last week talking with a young guy from Glasgow who was on the same course
as me. He more a less said the exact thing as you have posted word for word. He said the vast majority of Scots are sick and tired of Sturgeon and want the Scottish parliament, that they once had such high hopes for, to fix the much more serious public services problems that Scotland faces.

I can remember when Scotland was proud of its public services and its education system was held up as a shining example of Scottish accomplishment. We don't hear any of that today. As for Sturgeon, it is clear to me that she has a major Napoleon Complex, or Tiny Women Syndrome, if you will, and will sacrifice anything or anyone at any cost, to get her way. She is a small person in every way and she is in a position of power. She is bitter, evil, and dangerous.


Have they just got sick in the last year as the SNP have won pretty convincingly in the last few elections.


I can only repeat what he told me, he also said that Scottish Labour is a spent force, and he was expecting considerable gains for the Conservatives in Scotland.


based on recent results he is right about the second part.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:57 AM
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The people of the UK should unite and push for political reform. Our problem is that we have resigned to this notion that things are how they are and cannot be changed, they can - we're just lazy.

People don't want to make sacrifices, people don't want to fight, they want to live for the moment.

One message rings true, it's telling that people dismiss it as if it's meaningless...it's only meaningless if the majority dismiss it as such.

We are better together, it's not about the government it's about the people. The more people demand change the more chance there is that we'll get it.

England can't run away from their government and start again, they only have two options, revolt or reform.

The more divided the UK is, the less likely it is that either of those options will ever succeed. I 100% believe it is cowardly and selfish for any one of us to break away.

In the end we all have played a part in this union, not just the English. We should all be working together to push for reform, we should be demanding it.

Instead we have little factions like the Scots wanting to break off and go it alone. I have family all over the UK, I spend a lot of time in England, I spent much of my childhood there.

I don't see England as some foreign oppressor because they are not.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 06:58 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot
I am the new version saying as the circumstances have changed massively it would be entirely appropriate to have a referendum to see what people want.



Governments get voted in democratically, not everyone gets what they want,

the majority do.


People vote on policies they expect to get carried out.


When things change it is hoped the voted for representative would make the

best decission for their voter .....YOU.


It is unrealistic to expect a referendum every time a decission is needed!!!

That is what your MP is for.


That is why you have a vote ..... Dont vote for anyone you cant trust to

represent your views.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 07:00 AM
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originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ScepticScot
I am the new version saying as the circumstances have changed massively it would be entirely appropriate to have a referendum to see what people want.



Governments get voted in democratically, not everyone gets what they want,

the majority do.


People vote on policies they expect to get carried out.


When things change it is hoped the voted for representative would make the

best decission for their voter .....YOU.


It is unrealistic to expect a referendum every time a decission is needed!!!

That is what your MP is for.


That is why you have a vote ..... Dont vote for anyone you cant trust to

represent your views.


Pro independence MPs and MSPs are majority in Scotland.



posted on Apr, 1 2017 @ 07:00 AM
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originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: ZIPMATT

Just google it and learn , now please .


Well, I went here...

www.epp.eu...

and I couldn't find anyone in the "United Kingdom", the "UK", "Great Britain", "Britain" or "GB" there, in fact the closest to us is Ireland. After the above serches I opened the list of members in Adobe and there is no mention of Britain among them, may be an error with the site or how I'm looking at it though. Can you show me where it has UK parties please?



aT THE BOTTOM OF THE WIKI PAGE YOU'LL FIND THIS :

Notes[edit] Jump up ^ The Irish Prime Minister is commonly referred to as the Taoiseach in both Irish and English. See: Article 28.5.1° of the Constitution of Ireland.


The EPP is much closerr to home than you think ,: read the list of member parties on wiki : the EPP has majority if not absolute control in Europe , and strangely , on the wiki page at least , apparently none in the UK . Don't forget wikipedia is subject to change at any time:

en.wikipedia.org...


Perhaps , someone , recently , quietly , banned the EPP from this country :

everyone should know what and who EPP is : the whole of Europe's populace should know this , and get their countries from them , now , as in right now asap




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