The problem of Africa.

a reply to: Revolution9

People like you are the biggest danger to Africans because you keep enabling this victim mentality and eliminate all responsibility for them to ensure their own future.

There are no colonialists in Africa anymore and no white overlords oppressing the masses. Just very corrupt politicians.

I don't deny that over the years they have been taken advantage of and China is probably a bigger danger to Africans then the west but at some stage Africans need to man the f.... up and start carving out their own future instead of always blaming external factors.

They need to start holding their own responsible in my opinion.

I was born here and I probably have a better perspective on the situation than most. The situation is a lot more complex than you think and most of the blame is on them.

Keep your narrow minded argument in the 80's where it belongs. Times have changed.

a reply to: SLO31B

Be interested to know the timeline for when everything was thriving in harmony!

a reply to: TheJustLlam

i think the problem is that western civilization was forced on populations of africans who were and are still not ready and maybe never will be ready for it. who are we to force our way of life on people who have lived their way for 1000's of years. who is to say our way is better? we forced our ways in order to exploit their land and resources and now we are complaining about a problem we created. we shouldn't even be there to begin with, we should have left them to live their own lives as they saw fit.

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
i think the problem is that western civilization was forced on populations of africans who were and are still not ready and maybe never will be ready for it. who are we to force our way of life on people who have lived their way for 1000's of years. who is to say our way is better? we forced our ways in order to exploit their land and resources and now we are complaining about a problem we created. we shouldn't even be there to begin with, we should have left them to live their own lives as they saw fit.

Africa has been having problems since before western culture existed. Interestingly enough, failure of some African empires could have spurred the development of western culture.

This is not a new issue for that continent.

a reply to: conspiracy nut

Whilst I agree in part with what you say, what Europeans did in the 17th Century is no different from what is happening to say the Amazonian tribes today. Its who we are. We like to expand and conquer and have done so since humans were created. There have been and always will be the conquerors and the conquered and this cycle could be seen as a learning experience, as a way of evolving. We Brits were conquered so many times and as a result we learned and became a world power we took from our conquerors everything we could, everything that allowed us to be conquered and utilised it.

I wonder if the problem could be traced back to the cognitive ability of the local populace?

Here is an interesting article that suggests the locals do not fully possess the ability of abstract thinking. They are unable to plan or prepare for future events because they can not put themselves into that mental state.

Lead in to the article:

I am an American who taught philosophy in several African universities from 1976 to 1988, and have lived since that time in South Africa. When I first came to Africa, I knew virtually nothing about the continent or its people, but I began learning quickly. I noticed, for example, that Africans rarely kept promises and saw no need to apologize when they broke them. It was as if they were unaware they had done anything that called for an apology.

It took many years for me to understand why Africans behaved this way but I think I can now explain this and other behavior that characterizes Africa. I believe that morality requires abstract thinking—as does planning for the future—and that a relative deficiency in abstract thinking may explain many things that are typically African.

whitelocust.wordpress.com... ity-and-abstract-thinking-how-africans-may-differ-from-westerners/

a reply to: conspiracy nut

Yeah so....

No one is denying that. Not a single person in this forum has denied that western influence tainted Africa and for all we know they could have been better of had Europeans not arrived at their shores. Change is unfortunately a part of life, whether you like it or not, and no amount of crying over the past will change it.

They continue to act as victims and tolerate their current leadership or they can take a different path and start moving towards a better future (but that requires them taking personal responsibility and not constantly blame their circumstances on other races or countries).

I mean, what would you recommendation be to the rest of the world? Everyone just leave Africa alone, don't interact with them?

How did colonialism destroy africa?

There was not some super advanced civilization that europe exploited. Disease wise most of Africa was very dangerous for white people back then.

The white people built infrastructure and government institutions that did not exist before, They mined and farmed resources that were scarcely being put into productivity before they got there.
Once the white people left, they destroyed the institutions.

Also why are people saying it was bad white people broke up the land with different tribes grouped together? Are you guys implying that multiculturalism does not work? or are you implying Africans can't do multiculturalism?
Multiple tribes=Diversity=Super strength...or in this situation do we actually realize that multiculturalism sucks.

South Africa is super special, as most of the black people there in S. Africa now do not even originate from those lands. Zulu's and other tribes were on the north east side of S. Africa. The main semi-arid area was empty.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

I'm not an expert on African history but I do know they had great advanced civilizations in the past.

About colonization, it is what it is but who is to say the conquering civilization is what's best for those involved. Wouldn't the world be a better place if we could let people govern themselves? All the meddling in foreign governments and imperialism is what's got us into this mess to begin with.

I feel like there are civilizations on earth that are at a pre school level and we are forcing them to live at med school levels, their society as a whole is not ready to live at that level! You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink!!

Did colonialism force them to rape 33% of women before the age of 18? If so, whats stopping them now? They really seem to enjoy it. Only 5% get reported and none of those rapists get prosecuted.

news.trust.org...

They also really like burning people alive, women, children, old women, teenage girls. It happens often and draws big crowds. They bring their kids and laugh, smile, record it with their cell phones, and upload it to the internet. Some may say, well they're stone age people that don't know any better. Stone age people with HD cell phones, internet access and the technical wherewithal to upload videos and no empathy.

I don't need to link the countless videos out there.

There was a Passionate Eye documentary on aids in Africa. They were interviewing a young man with aids in a village where aids was rampant.

Interviewer: "Why don't you use a condom, you might transmit the disease?"

Young man: "I like skin to skin"

Interviewer: "But how would you feel if someone like you did that to your sister"

Young man: shrugs and smiles

Human life has very little value there. Contraception is basically non-existent. The people want a lot of kids so the one's that survive, can take care of their parents when they are old.

a reply to: conspiracy nut

With regard to ancient civilisations, whilst of course it is possible, there is no evidence to support the supposition (I don't include Egyp & Nubia in this post). There has been a huge movement online in the main, to prove that African was more advanced than Europeans or Arab nations but there seems to be very little proof and many many rumours and downright hoaxes, including the assertion that the Annunki landed there first and led the Africans into technologically advanced nations, but again not a shred of proof other than Afro-centric websites. There were some advanced civilisations in North Africa such as Carthage which was created from a smaller Phoenican city but as is known, Carthage was then re-invented by the Romans.

The 13th century King of Ethiopia Yekuno Amlak claimed that he was descended from ancient Africans and the biblical King Solomon & the Queen of Sheba and a civilisation they created called Aksum (Ethiopia being the first country to adopt christianity). Whilst it is believed that the ancient civilisation he spoke of may have existed, it seems from the limited evidence available that again, this civilisation was kickstarted by Arabs and in particularly Yemenis albeit ancient ones called Sabaeans, and was eventually wiped out due to political fragmentation and the overthrow of the Monarchy by a Jewish Queen (whose name escapes me sorry) however, Ethiopia does still remain a major Christian centre and also still has a large jewish population and remains the only African country to oppose Colonial rule.

The Kingdom of Zimbabwe is thought to have existed around the 13th century, evidence of this being some quite remarkable stone ruins, but only lasted 200yrs (Zimbabwe means "great stone houses") Zimbabwe expanded its rule to Botswana Mozambique and South Africa and established trade routes with Eastern African states trading in ivory gold and sadly slaves which many African states traded in such as the Kingdom of Kongo (a feudal system). Again this Kingdom state declined and by the 16th century when the Portugeuse arrived there was little or nothing left but ruins but at least these ruins left some evidence of a civilisations existence.

The difficulty in establishing facts relating to any early civilisations in Africa is the absence of literacy meaning that all stories are just that....and only exist orally but even those oral stories do not go back any further than the 13th century. Any civilisations that did exist were usually wiped out by war between tribes and all knowledge that there was lost/destroyed by the conquerors. No-one seems to know why Africa never evolved the same as their Asian and European counter parts and stagnated to the point of decline but it is believed constant warring didn't help matters and also the Africans eagerness to enslave and sell other Africans which made them wealthy but also decimated the population contributed. Both Arabs and Chinese bought African slaves by the million well before the transatlantic slave trade existed. However, culturally & technologically Africa never surpassed the Europeans (Greeks Romans etc) with the exception of Egypt and in part this is due to the nomadic lifestyle of the sub-Saharan Africans who resisted the establishment of fixed civilisations and the constant sudden decline of civilisations that came into being but didn't stay the course. Stability is a pre-requisite for a flourishing Empire and Africa appears to have had little of that long before colonisation.

originally posted by: PhyllidaDavenport
a reply to: conspiracy nut

With regard to ancient civilisations, whilst of course it is possible, there is no evidence to support the supposition (I don't include Egyp & Nubia in this post). There has been a huge movement online in the main, to prove that African was more advanced than Europeans or Arab nations but there seems to be very little proof and many many rumours and downright hoaxes, including the assertion that the Annunki landed there first and led the Africans into technologically advanced nations, but again not a shred of proof other than Afro-centric websites. There were some advanced civilisations in North Africa such as Carthage which was created from a smaller Phoenican city but as is known, Carthage was then re-invented by the Romans.

The 13th century King of Ethiopia Yekuno Amlak claimed that he was descended from ancient Africans and the biblical King Solomon & the Queen of Sheba and a civilisation they created called Aksum (Ethiopia being the first country to adopt christianity). Whilst it is believed that the ancient civilisation he spoke of may have existed, it seems from the limited evidence available that again, this civilisation was kickstarted by Arabs and in particularly Yemenis albeit ancient ones called Sabaeans, and was eventually wiped out due to political fragmentation and the overthrow of the Monarchy by a Jewish Queen (whose name escapes me sorry) however, Ethiopia does still remain a major Christian centre and also still has a large jewish population and remains the only African country to oppose Colonial rule.

The Kingdom of Zimbabwe is thought to have existed around the 13th century, evidence of this being some quite remarkable stone ruins, but only lasted 200yrs (Zimbabwe means "great stone houses") Zimbabwe expanded its rule to Botswana Mozambique and South Africa and established trade routes with Eastern African states trading in ivory gold and sadly slaves which many African states traded in such as the Kingdom of Kongo (a feudal system). Again this Kingdom state declined and by the 16th century when the Portugeuse arrived there was little or nothing left but ruins but at least these ruins left some evidence of a civilisations existence.

The difficulty in establishing facts relating to any early civilisations in Africa is the absence of literacy meaning that all stories are just that....and only exist orally but even those oral stories do not go back any further than the 13th century. Any civilisations that did exist were usually wiped out by war between tribes and all knowledge that there was lost/destroyed by the conquerors. No-one seems to know why Africa never evolved the same as their Asian and European counter parts and stagnated to the point of decline but it is believed constant warring didn't help matters and also the Africans eagerness to enslave and sell other Africans which made them wealthy but also decimated the population contributed. Both Arabs and Chinese bought African slaves by the million well before the transatlantic slave trade existed. However, culturally & technologically Africa never surpassed the Europeans (Greeks Romans etc) with the exception of Egypt and in part this is due to the nomadic lifestyle of the sub-Saharan Africans who resisted the establishment of fixed civilisations and the constant sudden decline of civilisations that came into being but didn't stay the course. Stability is a pre-requisite for a flourishing Empire and Africa appears to have had little of that long before colonisation.

Great post!

Problem iof African history is little or nothing is recorded before Europeans or Arabs arrived. The main problem being the lack or records. This is likely what held Sub Sahara Africa back, limited systems of writing. The slowest and least developed times in European history where when the written language was limited or literacy rates where poor.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
I wonder if the problem could be traced back to the cognitive ability of the local populace?

Here is an interesting article that suggests the locals do not fully possess the ability of abstract thinking. They are unable to plan or prepare for future events because they can not put themselves into that mental state.

Lead in to the article:

I am an American who taught philosophy in several African universities from 1976 to 1988, and have lived since that time in South Africa. When I first came to Africa, I knew virtually nothing about the continent or its people, but I began learning quickly. I noticed, for example, that Africans rarely kept promises and saw no need to apologize when they broke them. It was as if they were unaware they had done anything that called for an apology.

It took many years for me to understand why Africans behaved this way but I think I can now explain this and other behavior that characterizes Africa. I believe that morality requires abstract thinking—as does planning for the future—and that a relative deficiency in abstract thinking may explain many things that are typically African.

whitelocust.wordpress.com... ity-and-abstract-thinking-how-africans-may-differ-from-westerners/

Another interesting point but sadly one that is tainted as Taboo and will have the "that’s racist" brigade coming in full force.

But I think it’s a valid one. And again I think it’s linked with development of advanced written language.
There are studies that show that the language developed shapes the way we think and the culture we live in.
Africans, Native Americans and Australian aborigine’s all had limited or very unusual writing systems and all tend to follow the same failed tribal state.
I think the writting system of the rest of the world has shaped our thinking in what we know as the modern world

a reply to: crazyewok

The most moral, and best people I know are african. A dear friend is Nigerian, and I don't know a man who is of higher character. My wife works with a bunch of Kenyans, who again are extremely moral and upstanding people.

These aren't 2nd generation immigrants. These are people who stepped off a boat onto US soil and earned (or are earning) citizenship. Many travel back to Africa yearly for a few months.

a reply to: crazyewok

I think that's a bit harsh.

There is rampant corruption in Africa. The continent should be able to feed itself. However, it has some problems in terms of geography as well as culture.

For one thing, Africa is limited in its geography. For all its wealth, it doesn't have the wealth of natural ports and navigable waterways that other continents have. This has restricted the opportunities for cultures to settle and leave their tribal ways behind. Thomas Sowell pointed this out in one of his economics essays. Those geographic features do help build civilizations. Look at the Nile which fostered a great early civilization and culture, but the other great rivers of Africa aren't playing ball that way.

As a result, African cultures have tended to remain more tribal and less complex. This persists today and it hampers efforts to modernize.

Look at other tribal cultures that are being suddenly modernized and you see similar problems. Culture is hard to leave behind and it doesn't change or adapt quickly even when it maybe needs to.

So you end up with tribal structures governing and it's very corrupt and inefficient because it didn't develop and adapt naturally to include all the new ways of doing things that need to be incorporated. It ends up being destructive instead of helpful.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

But have they received a western style education and adopted western culture? One’s mind set and culture are not genetic and can change depending on their environment.
A African immigrant who has adapted our culture and received a western style education is not the same as native of Africa who has never left his village or had any contact with outside cultures.

If you put me in the hell that is South Sudan or Somalia without my western resources, my mind set would likely change very quickly the other way.

Plus let’s not generalise too much either and getting into the habit of thinking all Africa are starving genocidal savages and thinking everyone in the west well feed civilised and rich. There is plenty of in between in both and plenty examples of savages westerners and highly moral civilised Africans.

a reply to: crazyewok

I cannot speak to the Kenyans before meeting them. What i know: they show up here, get jobs, and then start using those jobs to get education.

Most of the ones i know are aide's working on LVN, LVN's working on RN, or already RN. There are issues with cultural accumen and how it translates to job performance, but everyone gets the hang of it.

The Nigerian guy was raised in Jamaica by his aunt.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: crazyewok

I cannot speak to the Kenyans before meeting them. What i know: they show up here, get jobs, and then start using those jobs to get education.

Most of the ones i know are aide's working on LVN, LVN's working on RN, or already RN. There are issues with cultural accumen and how it translates to job performance, but everyone gets the hang of it.

The Nigerian guy was raised in Jamaica by his aunt.

It has been observed by studies that Africans who immigrate here often do much better for themselves economically and education-wise over the long-term than our own African Americans often do. That says something about relative cultural norms and expectations too.

Again, I think if the tribal cultures of Africa could evolve/modernize to something better able to govern countries, the initiative of the people is there. Clearly, Africans are hard working and could make their own countries work if they could get a government system in place that would support them in success.

a reply to: PhyllidaDavenport

Ahh of course Americanised 3rd & 4th generation blacks are just bound to know the ins and outs of living in Namibia or Orange Free State or Zimbabwe, they will obviously be far more au fait with African culture than me or anyone else living there, because they've read it in a book or on the old interweb. I therefore bow to your vastly superior knowledge

Once again, and I repeat that I do not share your condensing attitude, especially about a continent that i learned about. And what are you, your parents or grand parents recently checked into whatever country your in? or are you a snobby blue blood that can trace their lineage to sir aruthur maximus the 3rd? check your assumptions lady. Now, you don't have to bow, but around these parts you kiss the ring

I think I'll stick with my version of events and history but cheers for a) assuming my colour

Your version of events are off the mark. And I never assumed your skin color nor do I care. Did I ever mention nor hint to it? No, I mentioned privilege however.

b) telling me repeatedly I'm wrong so therefore I must be

No, I responded to what you posted because it is an opinion. Which is why is said your free to believe in whatever.

c) not tackling the actual subject matter of the famine now occurring

I don't know, I'd have to look into it, that area too. Somali has a history of war and strife but what else is knew. But what this guy says will do for now

"The situation remains extremely complicated. You still have al-Shabab controlling large parts of southern Somalia and you still have an atmosphere, a difficult operating environment where counterterrorism legislation and the threat of legal action is in place. And where there's a very kind of risk-averse international community who are worried about legal threats, reputational threats by their resources being diverted into the wrong hands ... The situation remains very complicated and the political issues always take precedence in the end and it depends on how those dynamics play out."

Crisis in the Horn of Africa: Somalia's Famine

Conflicts usually play out vis a vis politics this way in Africa. The prospect of getting paid brings everyone to table eventually, even in Africa, the unfortunate part is that lives are used as pawns. It sucks.

d) presuming you are far more knowledgeable than an actual African (of whom there are a few on these boards btw)

Nope, never said that, or anything close to it. This is what I said, "Do I believe what you put forward as your argument? No and it's terribly wrong." I guess the use of the word terribly didn't settled right with you? No matter, your opinion is still incorrect.

a reply to: crazyewok

I think we have to just cut the aid and let them sink or swim without inference. Eventual after a decade of two of hard ship the people of Africa will adapt and learn to stand on there own two feet.

I love the presumption of who is we

I also love reading another discussion about: sink or swim, bootstraps, and how can we come up with a way to not feel bad about not helping people in distress

Joyous Africans Take to the Rails, With China’s Help

But few places are being reshaped by China’s overseas juggernaut like Africa, a continent that has seen relatively little new railroad construction in a century.

What China Knows about Africa That the West Doesn't

Throughout the last five centuries, Africa has existed in the Western imagination between two polarized extremes. One is the Africa that exists as treasure trove of spoils, a source of slaves to take as free labor, and a vast land full of natural riches for the taking. The other extreme is the Africa that is in need of saving, a place of needy and helpless souls where Westerners can live out their fantasies of missionary heroism.

However, in the dawn of the twenty-first century, a different African story has emerged which is, and should be, challenging the way that the West imagines Africa. From Nigeria to Kenya, and from Angola to Ethiopia, Africa is now one of the engines of global economic growth, clocking in over 4 percent annually. Instead of a continent in need of saving, Africa is becoming the next great frontier for development and economic opportunity. For the West to take part in this new African story, it is crucial to build a new relationship with Africa.

No longer your problem crazywok - other people will move in to either aid or exploit Africa. The West, for better or worse - is no longer calling all the shots on this planet