Two activists who filmed undercover videos of Planned Parenthood charged with 15 felonies

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

show me a study that proves that a fertilized egg is conscious of anything!!
you can't, I can't.. heck while we are at it, why don't we prove that god is an old white man sitting in the sky!

it's also quite irrelevant really isn't it? I mean, how many ways of we come up with to justify killing born, living conscious people in this world?
police officer sees a kid pull a toy gun out and instinctively shoots to kill then claims that he thought the kid intended to kill him...
a pregnant women's doctor tells her that there's a possibility that she will die if she carries it to term and aborts...
I don't really see that much difference between the two, do you? I mean they both acted out of fear, seeing a threat.

hitler's rampaging through europe, and at a race with the US to develop the nuclear bomb. they are exterminating a whole race of people. we can't let them get that bomb before us. we have one, just need to test it, so we pick that small group of islands called the marshall islands, and test the danged thing, and low and behold, we've condemned not only the inhabitants of those islands to death and disease but we also screw up their dna for generations to the point where they give birth to things that even the mothers of them call monsters. then it's on to vietnam with our agent orange, then on to iraq with our depleted uranium.. why? to protect the world from the evil hitler? to save the jews from genocide? to stop the spread of evil communism? to put more money in the pockets of the defense contractors and oil companies? to preserve the integrity of the dollar? to protect our democracy and freedom.. our way of life???

so, let's take some thought as to why some women might chose to abort...

the one that carries the most significance would be that her health and maybe her life is at risk...
kind of like when a cop sees the kid playing with a gun... they both find themselves fearing for their life..
is there really much of a difference here? I don't think so! also, please consider, to have babies too close together increases risk, not only in the short term, but also in the long term... so I am including in this group those women who find themselves pregnant soon after they've had a baby and just feel like they haven't recovered fully from the first pregnancy to go through the process again.

then there's the fact that motherhood severely affects the ability for a women to earn a living. while employers tend to think that fatherhood is an asset, that being a father causes men to work harder and be more apt to settle down into a job and stay awhile, they tend to view mothers as people who will always be placing their job second to their main role as mother... while there isn't really that big of a pay gap between men and single childless women, there is a rather large one when we are talking about men compared to mothers, or women without children compared to women who have children.. so, ya a women might chose to hold off on the children till she gets a good foothold careerwise.. who can blame her...
certainly not the country that chose to drop depleted uranium on iraq because they decided they were going to sell their oil for something outside of the almighty dollar! not only killing hundreds of thousand of women and children, grandmas and grandpas, but also the future generations of many!!
then there's the fact that weather some want to admit it or not, pregnancy does affect a women's ability to do things. I became pregnant with my third child very quickly after my second was born... I had two kids under two years old throughout most of that pregnancy.. I went through that last part of that pregnancy with doctor yelling me not to pick up my kids while I yelled at him that I was afraid to pick them up because I was having pains shooting down my legs! none of that mattered, I still had to pick the baby up out of the kid and chase the toddler and pick him up and move him out of danger for most of the day... If I had become pregnant with a fourth, I assure you I would have not kept it, because those kids needed me able to take care of them since if it wasn't me, for the most part it would have been no one...
how does that compare to the "The islamics are threatening our way of life, we've got to annhilate them"?

Over 88% of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Over half of all abortions in the U.S. occur within the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. 6.7% occur between 13 and 15 weeks, 3.5% occur between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
www.womenscenter.com...

I think that very few abortions occur after the point that a fetus is aware of much of anything...

the perceived threats are much the same, threat to life, threat to financials, threat to way of life, protection of loved ones... the only difference as a society we seem to be willing to kill hundreds of thousand of living, breathing, fully functional, very much aware women, children, men, grandmas, and grandpas..

it's pretty much a human trait, isn't it, to protect yourself and those you love? the problem is that women just aren't seen as fully human. they are less than human, don't feel the same way about things. throughout the ages they've been expected by man, law, and even "God" himself to be obedient, even when they know that that obedience will harm them in the end.. no right to self protection, they've been expected to sit down and shut up as their children are beaten, sold off, daughters married to old men... expected to replace their dreams and goals aside, and accept the life that a man has decided she live. denied of any right to earn her own way in life, forced to depend on the mercy of men for her needs, and if she is lucky a few of her wants...

much of what was once has faded into history, but when it comes to abortion, it's obvious that men still don't see women as fully human, with the right to protect herself and her own from future misery!

a reply to: Winstonian

I am an older, past my prime disabled women, a widow who can't work...
and I have to wait about another year before I can get medicare.
you have to be a senior citizen or disabled to get medicare... and I don't think there are many seniors getting abortions..

you sure you're not griping about medicaid? another program that I just ain't qualified for because my kids are adults?
that would make more sense.

but, if medicaid is paying for any and all abortions then it's because the state has chosen to fund them, not the federal gov't, so gripe at your state. but if you are griping about the federal medicaid program, then you are griping about women who have run into complications in their pregnancy who's health and possibly life is at risk getting assistance. women... AND CHILDREN... who were raped. and women who have found out that the baby they are carrying have severe birth defects...
if that is the case then well, what can I say... let's pull all the funding out of the healthcare industry because if you are gonna value the life and health of women so little why should we worry about anyones?

a reply to: dawnstar

So again, we start talking about cops killing kids and other things that have nothing to do with abortion. Just can't stay on topic, pretty typical.

originally posted by: dawnstar

I had two kids under two years old throughout most of that pregnancy.. I went through that last part of that pregnancy with doctor yelling me not to pick up my kids while I yelled at him that I was afraid to pick them up because I was having pains shooting down my legs! none of that mattered, I still had to pick the baby up out of the kid and chase the toddler and pick him up and move him out of danger for most of the day...

Not to judge you or anyone else, but if abortion wasn't an option, would you have tried a little harder not to put your life in such danger?

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

no, I am talking about the emotions that are behind things, and the similarity between them and the emotions that are often time behind abortions..
a society can support their nation bombing entire villages out of existence, to protect their way of life from a threat that is halfway around the world but can demonize a women that ends a pregnancy in the first trimester to protect her way of life from a threat that is growing inside her?
pull the 2x4 from your own eyes and quit worrying about that tiny sliver that is in the eyes of women!

a reply to: Bone75


???

here's a few facts that I don't share with others much...
after I had my first son, my doctor advised me that I should avoid sex till after my next appointment with him, about six weeks later. well, I'd say it was about three weeks later I woke up to a rather painful experience of something being inserted into my vagina....

I had my kids late, around the age of 30, I was advised by my doctor that I get off hormonal birth control, and at the time, short of tubal litigation which was very expensive for someone without insurance, the other options were rather crappy and I had very little luck with them.

at one time, I did separate from my husband for a time, that separation ended when my husband got a letter from child support threatening to take away his drivers license because his payments were behind, but, well, his payments weren't behind, I know, I seen his paycheck stubs... I was calling them and telling them this, he was, he was talking to his boss, trying to figure just what was wrong, but well, they kept losing the payments... at the time, he was a flipping truck driver! and all in all I really did care for the guy, I didn't hate him enough to put him that kind of hell. so I told social services that I was letting him back into the household and unless they wanted to explain why I still needed financial help with him earning the amount of money he was but only they were taking out most of it to make up for the fact that they went months losing the payments and ignoring our calls... well they had better get their crap together...

so, you tell me, just what was it that I should have done?

and I raised my kids in the poorer neighborhoods, most of the single moms I met were either not getting any child support or getting very little..
maybe the men should spend more time wondering what they could do differently instead of telling women that they should have done things differently!

originally posted by: Winstonian
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Then you are ignorant of your own political ideology. Maybe you should go read up on what socialism is and how it works.

Socialism IS violence. Period.

Maybe you are just wrong? Ever consider that possibility? NAAAAAAH. It's easier to just make up strawmans about me.

I do not consent. Guess what happens next? Men with guns FORCE me to consent. That is called violence.

I call it a slippery slope fallacy, but hey do you.

And yes, I do pay for abortions. I have been paying taxes and into medicare my entire life.

So? Those aren't related. There is a specific law that prevents the government funding abortions. That is a pro-life bill. Denying its existence or that it is working doesn't mean it isn't there.

If you and others wish to keep funding abortions, make a voluntary donation so that I don't have to. If planned parenthood is so essential, it should be able to stand on it's own without stealing money from people that don't consent. Heck, maybe you can go get Lena Dunham pregnant! Both of you could have a cool and fun abortion day together! Then when you are done you can #shoutyourabortion all over social media!

If you'd bother to deny some ignorance and pull your head out of your self-centered ass you'd learn that PP does FAR more for women's health than just abortions.

originally posted by: dawnstar

here's a few facts that I don't share with others much...
after I had my first son, my doctor advised me that I should avoid sex till after my next appointment with him, about six weeks later. well, I'd say it was about three weeks later I woke up to a rather painful experience of something being inserted into my vagina...

So your husband raped you?

a reply to: Bone75

I prefer to think that he wasn't awake enough to realize just how painful his actions would be for me??
but, the only times I have told this story was when people, usually guys, have come out with the "Can a husband really rape his wife." usually these bible are using twisted religious beliefs to support their position.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: Bone75

I prefer to think that he wasn't awake enough to realize just how painful his actions would be for me??
but, the only times I have told this story was when people, usually guys, have come out with the "Can a husband really rape his wife." usually these bible are using twisted religious beliefs to support their position.

Thanks. I have no further questions.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

If you'd bother to deny some ignorance and pull your head out of your self-centered ass you'd learn that PP does FAR more for women's health than just abortions.

Do you or do you not think that tax dollars should fund abortions?

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

If you'd bother to deny some ignorance and pull your head out of your self-centered ass you'd learn that PP does FAR more for women's health than just abortions.

Do you or do you not think that tax dollars should fund abortions?

I don't care if they do, but I'm not currently trying to break the door down to change the policies on the books.

I'm going to ask this simple question once again. I know it won't get answered without a long dissertation that has nothing to do with this, but I must try. Getting a liberal nailed down to one single discussion is like nailing jello to a wall.

When does consciousness occur?

1. At some point in time during the pregnancy (pick any week you wish) a "tissue mass" suddenly realizes that it can feel, hear, and even see changes in light around it as the mother goes from light to dark rooms.

2. Consciousness slowly grows and evolves as the "tissue mass" grows and evolves.

Pick one, because those are the only two there can be.

Then let's debate.

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
Pick one, because those are the only two there can be.

Bull#. There are potentially unlimited answers to the question as to when consciousness starts. Even science doesn't know everything and to say something definitive there is HIGHLY arrogant of you. Especially in regards to the brain. That is one of the weaker fields of science out there. Science doesn't even fully understand what conscious is, let alone when it starts.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

You have proven my original point, thank you.

a reply to: fredrodgers1960

Then let's debate.

Now you post this:

You have proven my original point, thank you.

So you were lying then?

Though I'm not sure why it matters when consciousness even starts in regards to this debate. Why does it matter here? Outside of a weak morality argument from pro-lifers, it doesn't change the fact that women around the world seek abortions out for unwanted pregnancies and it is a matter of public safety to offer safe environments to get them. PP is a great provider of them, but even then that is a small subset of their total operation.

I really see your line of questioning to be off topic.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Absolutely not. You've just painted yourself into a corner.

Science can't prove when consciousness occurs. 26 weeks? 2 days? 2 years after the child is born?

The fact is that a healthy tissue mass, if allowed to grow to maturity, ends up as a unique individual.

Time is the only difference between killing it at 1 day after conception or 6 months after it's born.

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Absolutely not. You've just painted yourself into a corner.

No. I didn't.

Science can't prove when consciousness occurs. 26 weeks? 2 days? 2 years after the child is born?

The fact is that a healthy tissue mass, if allowed to grow to maturity, ends up as a unique individual.

Time is the only difference between killing it at 1 day after conception or 6 months after it's born.

So? This conversation is unimportant to the matter of letting a woman legally choose to get an abortion or not.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes you did, and yes it does.

"So? This conversation is unimportant to the matter of letting a woman legally choose to get an abortion or not."

Can a woman deliver a child and then kill it?

originally posted by: fredrodgers1960
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Can a woman deliver a child and then kill it?

That isn't an abortion.