Legitimate claims of advanced civilization existing before 5,000BC?

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: intergalactic fire
I hope there will be more work done on Gobekli Tepe as this ancient site could be proof of ancient advanced civilizations older than previous thought.

Work has never stopped at Gobekli Tepe. Sometimes there's a hiatus, but they're excavating there now.

Almost certainly not a civilization however. People didn't even live there, it would appear from the evidence.

Harte

ok thx
The latest I've read was that only 5%-10% of the whole site has been excavated.
Maybe a bit too soon to claim a final judgement?
Even if none lived there there must be an explanation to how it got there. The age of the site alone makes it interesting no? Weren't some parts dated to +9000BC?
What is the evidence showing as for now? A sanctuary or something a likes?

originally posted by: Harte

Almost certainly not a civilization however. People didn't even live there, it would appear from the evidence.

The nearest known settlement was 20km away by the banks of the Euphrates, called Nevalı Çori
en.wikipedia.org...

An area in the northwest part of the village appears to be of special importance. Here, a cult complex had been cut into the hillside. It had three subsequent architectural phases, the most recent belonging to Stratum III, the middle one to Stratum II and the oldest to Stratum I. The two more recent phases also possessed a terrazzo-style lime cement floor, which did not survive from the oldest phase. Parallels are known from Cayönü and Göbekli Tepe. Monolithic pillars similar to those at Göbekli Tepe were built into its dry stone walls, its interior contained two free-standing pillars of 3 m height. The excavator assumes light flat roofs. Similar structures are only known from Göbekli Tepe so far.

And Gobekli Tepe was in the hills above it, so its more like a hunting lodge than a temple

You know... Marduk, you are one of the reasons I joined this site. I was reading some of your replies and found them so amusing, I thought to myself "There seem to be some genuinely intelligent people on this site, I think I'll give a shot." Imagine my surprise when you suddenly showed up in my very first posted thread and proceeded to label me as some kind of irrational, delusional, close minded fanatic. I guess this falls in the category of "never meet your heroes". BTW, I replied to your last response in case you missed it.

Edit: And, I admit, my post is a bit outlandish. But it never hurts to stir things up. You never know what might appear when the dust settles.

a reply to: Marduk

I can appreciate the patience you must have had to plot that graph in moviemaker, well done. It also be interesting to see global impacts of something like the Burckle Crater to determine if that could have ignited some of the flood myths. But I suspect that will need someone with expertise in computer modelling.

originally posted by: DrWily

Oh this should be fun, you are ruthless. So.. I don't disagree with any of that. I've actually been interested in archaeology since a young child and have read quite a bit of material on the subject. Archaeology is not exactly a profitable profession, however, and so I became a computer programmer instead. So, I'm by no means an expert in the field... But I like to dabble.

I am more of a comparative mythologist, I got into this because I read Sitchin at a young age and it terrified me, most kids have that erroneous belief that if something is in a book it must be true. So "the Gods are coming back to enslave us." So I wanted to learn more about when and where, that got me into Graham Hancock and it was some time before I realised that they were both lying for profit. Its pretty obvious when you study the cultures they are talking about from proven information from people who have actually excavated the sites. If you are interested in real archaeology, you should probably buy yourself a handful of books by Sir Leonard Woolley. His insights into what he was finding clearly show a scientific method. You can purchase a load of his books on Amazon for a few pennies. When someone has Lawrence of Arabia as his personal assistant, you're going to be in for an adventure
Amazon

originally posted by: DrWily
Sometimes it does! Antikythera Mechanism, Nemi Ships, Göbekli Tepe, Qin Shi Huang's tomb, etc. Sometimes these little things come along that rewrite the history books. Sometimes we don't even realize what we have found until much much later. It happens, archaeology isn't the infallible science that you make it out to be. 40+ years ago, we didn't really have a solid idea of what Mayan glyphs translated out to. Now we do. These sorts of discoveries capture the imagination and that's what I meant when I said I was "open".

None of those things rewrote the history books though, they just added to the knowledge and fit right into the already existing historical framework. Rewriting the history books would be something along the lines of the decipherment of Akkadian, or the discovery of the Hittites.

originally posted by: DrWily

Did it ever occur to you that... I don't know, he lied? Stories are often more entertaining with added embellishment. And it's not exactly like we can check his sources, can we?

But he told you where and when his sources were, have you looked ?
There have been several excavations
www.world-archaeology.com...

originally posted by: DrWily
WOW!!! You assume so much. It's almost like you are applying preconceived notions to someone you've never met before. That's totally rational. And no worries, I forgive you ahead of time.

You're right and I do apologise. As so often happens, the amount of creduloids that come in here expecting their claim that their beliefs are valid to be instantly confirmed, because they read it in a work of fiction, have made me ultra cynical of anyone who even seems to emulate them. maybe I'm just having a bad day
But I do urge you as I did earlier, ignore the pseudo historians. You will just be wasting your time

I will happily answer serious questions, I always do.

a reply to: Marduk

I read and saw the vid of Chariot of the Gods as a kid, and I was wowed by it, however when Crash Goes Chariots of the Gods came out, it put me on a more science based path, that ancient aliens stuff, I now consume for entertainment purposes.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Marduk

I can appreciate the patience you must have had to plot that graph in moviemaker, well done. It also be interesting to see global impacts of something like the Burckle Crater to determine if that could have ignited some of the flood myths. But I suspect that will need someone with expertise in computer modelling.

The Burckle crater claims are a load of made up rubbish, its too far away and the dating claimed by the team is a guess at best and a lie at worst. They want to connect it to the Sumerian K8538 tablet which records a comet strike in 3123 BCE. but to do that, they just made up the dating, no scientific dating has been done on the Burckle crater at all, this is quite usual for the "Holocene impact working group". There is no scientific validity to their claims for it.

But yanno
if you're looking for an impact crater, responsible for flood myths in Mesopotamia, you'd probably do better just to look at impact craters in Mesopotamia
Like I don't know, this maybe
en.wikipedia.org...
Of all the cities in Mesopotamia that were devastated by the same flood, the one which was completely destroyed was the sacred city of Eridu, They even wrote the disaster into a story
This impact crater is just 70 miles away from Eridu and we know from the Sumerian kings list that the devastation occurred right around 3100BCE
This crater is dated from anywhere between 5000 and 3000BCE

I recall a line from Raiders of the lost ark "They're digging in the wrong place"

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: Marduk

I read and saw the vid of Chariot of the Gods as a kid, and I was wowed by it, however when Crash Goes Chariots of the Gods came out, it put in on a more science based path, that ancient aliens stuff, I now consume for entertainment purposes.

Me too, I didn't get around to that until long after I became scientific. It was hilarious, the bit where he was claiming the Nazca lines as a landing strip for an intergalactic space ship just cracked me up. Dude didn't even seem to know the basics, the Nazca lines were created by overturning rocks, any sort of blast would have destroyed them utterly,

a reply to: Marduk

I'm way to sleepy to give a coherent reply, but thanks for yours. I appreciate it.

And to be honest, I didn't really investigate Plato's sources, no. I'll need to consult my Great Books book on Plato, I think it contains both dialogues.

Im undecided on your topic. I read a lot, and archeology/history would be one of my favorite topics. I read the reports from well known, highly respected Archeologists, and I also read the independent, 'new school' Archeologists, a.k.a., the crackpots. I find its a good dose of fact(from the main streamers), and a healthy portion of theory, and "what if" from the crack pots.
Now that thats out of the way, there is alleged proof that egypt is more than 13,000 years old. The problem with bringing the info out, is that the older, most well respected Archeologists would have to admit theyre wrong, and the younger new school Archeologists who have a lot respect the older guys, would not want to go against the men they respect and paved the way for them. (This is what I hear listening to podcasts, and reading the scientific journals)
Some of the theories that are abound, (coming from some of the new 'crackpots' as they are called) is that Atlantis did/does exist, and its still visable to this day, except now its called "Antarctica". No solid proof, just rumors and theory. The main point being all the recent activity down there. Supposedly he government knows about this, and thats what there doing. Digging for technology.
Bottom line is that anything that is proven, will eventually be disproven, and vice versa. Some will say yes, others, no.
My suggestion would be to take it all with a grain of salt and believe what makes sense to you!

originally posted by: DrWily
And to be honest, I didn't really investigate Plato's sources, no. I'll need to consult my Great Books book on Plato, I think it contains both dialogues.

Timaeus
Critias

originally posted by: Brian4real
Now that thats out of the way, there is alleged proof that egypt is more than 13,000 years old. The problem with bringing the info out, is that the older, most well respected Archeologists would have to admit theyre wrong, and the younger new school Archeologists who have a lot respect the older guys, would not want to go against the men they respect and paved the way for them.

I'm sorry but that's complete rubbish, it could only be true if each site was investigated by just one archaeologist, but there are usually hundreds of people involved and the facts are normally ascertained in labs around the world. You have hundreds of archaeologists working across Egypt from many different countries all trying to make a name for themselves who are not at all unified. So you've been listening to the normal claims from pseudo archaeologists "The reason I have no proof for my claims is because theres a cover up".
The truth is there is no proof for the claims, because the claims are nonsense.

originally posted by: Brian4real
now its called "Antarctica". No solid proof, just rumors and theory. The main point being all the recent activity down there. Supposedly he government knows about this, and thats what there doing. Digging for technology.

Again utter nonsense, the only credible source for Atlantis mythology is Plato and everything he talks about in his two dialogues is clearly Bronze age technology. Its quite clear you haven't read either of his two dialogues, if you had you would already know that.
The claims for advanced technology all came from Edgar Cayce, who talked a whole lot of crap when he was apparently asleep
so here's your choice
1. Read the original source, Plato, who's dialogues are 2400 years old
2, Believe a man who claimed to be psychic, but who was in fact convicted of fraud, who related his stuff in the 1940s

Its not a choice at all really is it. Psychic powers or ancient literature

You should also look up the difference between "Theory" and "Hypothesis", they are not the same thing

originally posted by: Brian4real
Bottom line is that anything that is proven, will eventually be disproven, and vice versa. Some will say yes, others, no.

Again, where did you get that from, "Anything", you go too far, its been proven that the pyramids are made out of limestone, when do you think that will be disproven, or how about, Egypt is in Africa, when is that one going to be found fallacious, if you insist on "anything", then please provide examples. Is the sky not blue to human eyesight, is a banana not yellow, do humans have two arms, is a dog a canine...

a reply to: Marduk

lol, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Marduk

lol, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks again.

I also have a rich and fertile social life and the sexual mechanics of my love making are globally lauded

AKA I do step away from research occasionally, but yanno, insomnia leaves a lot of alone time when the internets running real fast

a reply to: Marduk

You need check out that insommia, and of cause, your other delusions.

originally posted by: glend
a reply to: Marduk

You need check out that insommia, and of cause, your other delusions.

Actually, the first line was completely true, I am internationally recognised for a particular erotic skill set I have been developing for 30 years and have won awards for in America (I'm English), as a result I have both a wife and a girlfriend who are both 16 years younger than me and who are both nurses, we all three went on honeymoon together. If you want any more than that, private message only, The history knowledge is really the boring stuff

and my insomnia comes in handy working night shifts, where I basically get a lot of free time to myself and get paid for it.
I wouldn't want to be anyone else

a reply to: Marduk

In your dreams.

a reply to: Marduk

My apoligies, I thought you were being funny. I have no interest in increasing pleasure recieved through my senses, moreso, trying to reduce it. Happiness from sensory gratification is like drugs, the more you get the more you need to reach the same high. So in reality, it brings pain, not happiness.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Marduk

In your dreams.

yours maybe, but it is my reality.
Why would I lie about it, but if you'd like to send me your email addy by pm. I can easily provide you with enough documentary information to prove it. But if I do, I will expect you to publically recant your post !!
deal ?

originally posted by: glend


My apoligies, I thought you were being funny.

I was both being ironically funny and honest,

originally posted by: glend
I have no interest in increasing pleasure recieved through my senses, moreso, trying to reduce it. Happiness from sensory gratification is like drugs, the more you get the more you need to reach the same high. So in reality, it brings pain, not happiness.

I've heard that many times from the spiritually inclined but its not my world, for me and mine, pain and pleasure are two sides of the same coin, if you have someone skilled to demonstrate, that can be made absolutely clear. My demonstrations have made the international press, I do know what I speak of. Takes all sorts yanno

a reply to: Marduk
Nah.
I'm not into that sort of thing.