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The strange "Great" War

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posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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I am reffering to the First World War, which started for no obvious reason (I don't think anyone has ever explained in a satisfying way why the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was the cause for the beginning of the war).

The most strange stories I have read/heard are about this war, the trenches, the thousands of soldiers fighting - and dying - for pieces of land not bigger than a basketball court, the gas, the birth of the surealistic movement in the arts etc

I remember about a month ago I ran into site that uses documents of the era and letters of soldiers or their families, along with photos and other stuff, explaining the real (as they claim) reasons (or something in that line, I don't really remember exactly) of why the "Great" War happened. If anyone knows about it, or any other informational site about the subject and the real facts behind WW I, please share it here.

Since I am new to the fora of ATS, maybe there has been a topic similar to this one before, so I am sorry for not having the patience to look way back.

Thank you in advance




posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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Ferdinands death is connected to the war because he was killed by a Serbian nationalist and he was the Kaisers favorite I think nephew/cousin. And he had a pact with Austria-Hungry and move into Serbia. Russia being a long term friend of Serbia move to stop them. Russia had a pact with France, England, and the like. This is the way it started. If my info is incorrect please correct it.

Thank You



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:49 PM
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Originally posted by Gorgonos
I am reffering to the First World War, which started for no obvious reason (I don't think anyone has ever explained in a satisfying way why the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was the cause for the beginning of the war).


There is.

Imagine if you can, four countries, Britain, France, Germany and Russia, all have been building up their weapons for a while and all are ready to gain some territory, but no one is willing to initiate the war, so they wait for an oppurtunity, and the assasination is the oppurtunity.

The reason behind every war is simple, you want to be the best and you want the rest to be under you.

Surf



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 12:32 AM
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What territory did Russia want?



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 12:37 AM
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What territory did Russia want?


The small peice of grass behind the Pub I think....took 100,000 men to take it as well.

But they got their beer garden in the end, thats until the commies spoilt it!


But seriously, WW1 started with the assasination of the Arch Duke (ruler of Austria-Hungary).

They ruled Serbia at the time, and sent in massive amounts of troops as a reprisal and to quell nationalists.

The Russians backed up the Serbs (fellow slav's), and Germany then backed up Austria-Hungary. As Russia had an Alliance (the Triple Entente) with the UK and France, it all kicked off from there.... silly really.

[edit on 2/2/05 by stumason]



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 02:36 AM
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Well, you will agree with me I think when I say that the killing of the Arch-Duke is the silliest (and inadequate) reason for a world war to take off from. I also know of other countries that they used the war as an excuse to attack in order to (re)claim some territories, or attack after they defended their territories. As I see it sometimes it was something everyone agreed to but noone openly accepted. All of a sudden everybody attacked everybody else.

This is a listing of the main events taking place a month before and after the official start of the war:

June 28 Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the throne of Austro-Hungarian empire, in Sarajevo, Bosnia

July 28 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia

July 29 - December 9 Austria-Hungary repeatedly invades Serbia but is repeatedly repulsed

August 1 Outbreak of war
Germany declares war on Russia

August 3 Germany declares war on France

August 4 Germany invades neutral Belgium

August 4 Britain declares war on Germany

August 4 US President Woodrow Wilson declares policy of US neutrality

August 14 Battle of the Frontiers begins

August 17-19 Russia invades East Prussia

August 23 Japan declares war on Germany

August 23 - September 2 Austria-Hungary invades Russian Poland (Galicia)


Isn't it funny? There was a war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, so Germany attacked Russia, France and Belgium... And then Japan entered the war and Russia invaded East Prussia. In the next two years there were other really unconnected invasions and battles. The British invaded Jerusalem, US marines landed in Haiti, Bulgaria started fighting with Greece, Pancho Villa in Mexico, Japan had declares on China, a rebellion started in Ireland, battles at Faulkland Islands etc etc etc

Now, I don't think most of that has anything to do with Ferdinand... The excuse of war itself was good enough, it seems, for anyone to attack to anyone they wanted for their own reasons. And when everybody was tired of it, they decided to end it (officially that is, as many conflicts between countries continued for some years), and they did, with an elongated truce.

I keep thinking that the war was just as insane as the insanity it produced.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 03:19 AM
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well the offical excuse given in my college poli sci class was the fact that old school military deployment relying on trains could not be redone faste enough to alter german deployment along its western border and that triggered england and frances response.

that and the guys in charge like berchtold (austrian forieng minister guy) , sazanov (russian FM), and shukov (russian general) were total FrogTards incompotents that bungled into the war over their ideaology.

IMO they were just nwo weasels who managed to work their way into the cabinets and did it all on purpose.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 08:18 AM
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Originally posted by Gorgonos
I am reffering to the First World War, which started for no obvious reason (I don't think anyone has ever explained in a satisfying way why the assassination of Franz Ferdinand was the cause for the beginning of the war).

What?

The archduke was assasinated by nationalists/anarchists in serbia. The serbs were traditional russian allies. It wasn't an isolated incident, and the Dual Monarchy was have real problems with different natioalities wanting to leave the empire. This aggitation, which lead to the assasination, set off a chain reaction. The Russian Imperials started mobilizing their troops, the Austro-Hungarians requested aid from the Prussian lead Germans. The Germans knew that the Russians had alliances with I think the French, the French also had alliances with the Russians, and the Ottomans were too close to the situation to not get involved. Once the Germans were asked to help, and saw the the Russians were mobilizing, they decided to attack France pre-emptively, because they knew that the french were required to respond because of their treaties.

This has allways been know. An entangling system of alliances was just waiting to be thrown into effect. The instability of the Austro-Hungarian Empire was just the actual even that triggered it.


you want to be the best and you want the rest to be under you

The war was not motivated by a land grab. There is nothing in the various histories or documents that indicates this. Most of the Empires were satisfied with their current holdings. Indeed, they were not fighting for land, had the russians won in the east, they'd've traditionally set up independent kingdoms/republics in the area. No one wanted to have to muck around with the nationalists/socialists/anarchists in teh region.


assasination of the Arch Duke (ruler of Austria-Hungary).

The arch duke was a very high level official, but not the Dual King of Austria and Hungary.


it all kicked off from there.... silly really.

Silly and disturbingly inevitable. Its somewhat similar to the Cold War if you think about it. Nothing wrong with the setup in and of itself, but one small thing can set the whole thing off.


All of a sudden everybody attacked everybody else.

You have not been paying attention. The killing of the archduke was not the reason for the war. The major participants had nothing to do iwth the assasination, and the two sides were not a pro-arch duke and anti-arch duke set. It was the system of interconnected alliances, agreements to respond on another countries behalf if they were attacked, the caused the war. The assasination just made the russians wary and resulted in their mobilization. This caused the Germans to realize that they'd have to respond to their treaty, and that the french and english would have to repsond if russia was attacked, so that Germans had to attack both Russia and France, before the war had even started.


There was a war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia

Serbia was part of the vast and expansive Austro-Hungarian Empire. Technically all that was required was a police action, maybe some martial law, to put down the Black Hand terror cell that had done the assasination.


But, any action against their serbs by the AH was making the Russians, (technically a different nationality than slavs) old allies of the serbs, nervous. Nervousness on the part of russia, and the demand of their alliance with the AH on the part of germany, made germany extremely nervous, since they were flanked by russia and their ally France, and also had to content with the British Navy at the same time. Once the Germans made the decision that the russians would be going to war, that was the end of it.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Serbia was NOT part of Austria-Hungary. Serbia was independent state, Bosnia was part of the empire. Why Germans attacked France? They did it because they KNEW France will use the oportunity (war with Russia) to invade Germany. Germany won some regions from France in 1870 and France wanted them back. Germans knew it will take some time until Russians mobilize their army so the plan was to DEFEAT the France BEFORE the russian mobilization and than turn against Russia. In order to achieve that, they planned to flank the French forces through neutral Belgium. But UK was a garant of Belgian suverenity, so that was the reason why Britain joined the war. The "blitzkrieg" plan failed on Marna river though, and Germans fought on both fronts. BTW they were quite sucesfull (especially against Russians - they took Ukraine and the whole west of russian empire) but the naval blockade, US involvement and defeat of their alllies (Austria-Hungary and Turkey) led them to capitulation.

[edit on 2-2-2005 by longbow]



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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You see I new you could't give me a real answer and that you'll give me a STUPID answer like that, I just asked it so everyone else could see YOU (Stumason) don't know what your talking about S



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by longbow
Serbia was NOT part of Austria-Hungary. Serbia was independent state, Bosnia was part of the empire.

Hmm, my recollection is fuzzy. What was the Black Hand doing assasinating the ArchDuke for then? Yes now that I think about it it happened in bosnia didn't it? Sarajevo none the less?


The "blitzkrieg" plan failed on Marna river though

Was this the name for it? I thought this term wasn't used until WWII and refered to a combined arerial/tank assualt and minimal occupation while moving on deeper into enemy territory?



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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The great war was started by a single man, The Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand almost didnt even happen there was a failed attempt in the same day with a bomb. If not for a freak turn of fate (their driver took a wrong turn ) they might never have even crossed paths with Gavrilo Princip.

I often imagine how different the world might be if the driver never took that wrong turn.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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I suspect that the war would've happened anyway. The war was caused by having interconnected alliances. The germans had to respond if the austrians were attacked. The French and Russians if they were attacked. THe Enlighs had their own alliances. Any incident could trigger that system into everyone attacking everyone else. All it takes is for one to think that one other is goingto attack them. Mistaking, say, a troop re-organization for a mobilization. Once you think that, then you've got to realize that if, say, the austrians are going to attack you, that the Germans are going to attack also because of their alliance, and that your allies are going to come to your aide, and that might require some other secondary ally of theirs (but not yours) to attack also, and that in itself can cause anohter set of allies to respond.

I mean, the germans weren't really that upset over the archduke dying. They weren't really that concerned about serb nationalism, or even teh stability of the AH Empire. The Prussians were infact at odds with the Austrians, as to who would be the leader of the german states, so its got to be seen ina context wider than this assasination.



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 04:52 PM
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The killing of the archduke was not the reason for the war. The major participants had nothing to do iwth the assasination, and the two sides were not a pro-arch duke and anti-arch duke set. It was the system of interconnected alliances, agreements to respond on another countries behalf if they were attacked, the caused the war


Exactly Nygdan, that's what I was trying to say in my posts. (Thanks for the detailed answer by the way). If the Arch Duke hadn't been killed, another incident would have been used to trigger the war. This killing was only a pretext for it to start.

If I remember well, according to the Treaty Of The Versaiiles secret diplomacy was abolished since .

There are facts, though, that prevent me from believing that the interconnected alliances was the reason of this chain reaction to the first attack by Austria - hungary. For instance, Italy before the war was part of the so called Central Powers along with Germany and Austria - Hungary, but in fact they were more like enemies with Austria - Hungary and would only fight a defensive war and not join Germany in offensive moves.
Furthermore, for years before 1914 most european countries, according to these complicated alliances had made plans for the event of a war. So, it was something everybody more or less was waiting for for some time



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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A lot of it was the alliances that were going on at that time. One guy said he'd back the other up, and they just kept dragging each other into the war.

And mobilization played a big part in it, too. Once things got rolling (no pun intended, since they were on trains), they couldn't just stop.



posted on Feb, 3 2005 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by Gorgonos
So, it was something everybody more or less was waiting for for some time

Good point, without the war readiness, there might've been a long enough period of time that passes between being relatively disarmed to armed for war, such that regular diplomacy could've solved any misunderstandings.

That was the nature of warefare at the time tho, large armies, and especially battle fleets, had ot be a part of a countries stock.



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