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I salute the GOP. Coming from a democrat

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posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: Spider879

Medicare For All





(will cost over $6 trillion less than the current health care system over the next ten years. typical middle class family would save over $5,000 Businesses would save over $9,400 a year in health care costs for the average employee This plan has been estimated to cost $1.38 trillion per year Revenue raised: $110 billion a year.Under this plan the marginal income tax rate would be: 37 percent on income between $250,000 and $500,000. 43 percent on income between $500,000 and $2 million. 48 percent on income between $2 million and $10 million. (In 2013, only 113,000 households, the top 0.08 percent of taxpayers, had income between $2 million and $10 million.) 52 percent on income above $10 million. (In 2013, only 13,000 households, just 0.01 percent of taxpayers, had income exceeding $10 million.)




posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: SBMcG




Conservatism is all about more freedom, smaller government, and more personal responsibility.


And leaving millions uninsured while telling them they now have the access to healthcare they've always needed even though it doesn't do them any good because they can't afford it so they're left to live under rugged individualism while the conservatives give out huge amounts of subsidies via tax payer dollars to the super rich so they can live under corporate socialism and keep the checks coming in for the 'God Fearing' conservatives that somehow magically can't see all the human suffering around them for the giant log of corporatism in their eye.

That same 'magic' somehow stops voters from seeing the huge amounts of subsidies they are furnishing to corporations through their income and also magically makes them forget to complain about it with the same passion they do versus social welfare for We The People. Perhaps all check stubs should be much more detailed to match reality.

They chomp at the bit to bring in oil from Canada telling We The People it's safe and sound while in the same breath telling us we can't bring in prescription drugs from Canada to lower the insanely high costs here in the United States because they're too dangerous.

I'll happily pay my taxes so my fellow Americans can have a better quality of life. Those corporations and the super rich can try rugged individualism for a while or forever.
edit on 25-3-2017 by Gumerk because: clarification



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: Milehigh


Im reading your post and emparhize with what youve been through but cant help to wonder how on #ing earth trump 's bill fixes your problem.

That is the whole problem: it doesn't. It left Obamacare in place. That's why I opposed it.

But opposing it doesn't mean I'm happy with Obamacare. I want it gone, completely. Repealed, 100%. It may have helped some people, but it seriously hurt just as many others, and now the whole thing is collapsing. In the end, all it really did was redistribute healthcare from those who were OK to those who weren't, in the process damaging the precious few free market controls that still existed.

There are a couple of good things in it that helped people: forcing insurers to cover pre-existing conditions and allowing family coverage to continue longer. Those are good, but they can be implemented without the monstrosity of bad.

My gripe is when people applaud Obamacare blindly, opposing any change. I see that as nothing less than applauding my problems. I don't give a hoot about sympathy; I've pulled myself up by my own bootstraps before, and I'll do it again if given half a chance. But I do get a little frustrated at people applauding keeping me from doing that.


Been wondering since you seem wise, ever thought of becoming An electrical entrepeureur?

That's what I am doing now... but there's a problem. My savings are gone. I have a private lab, but to keep it running requires tools and materials. Soldering iron tips do wear out and have to be replaced. Parts are cheap (I just ordered some $0.27 Schmidt Trigger inverters), but they do cost.

If I expand, I will have to start contending with payrolls... taxes out the wazoo. I have to provide healthcare I can't afford for myself. And I have to deal with ridiculous OSHA requirements, EPA requirements, etc. So that just ain't gonna happen. Anything I create, regardless of the good it could do for humanity, will have to be sold to a third party. I will not build past prototype (or personal use). If they choose to bury it, well, so be it. If I were to develop a solar power system that could power the country 100%, or an electric vehicle that could cheaply and reliably replace all the gas-burners, or a device that cured cancer... it will not be carried past the prototype stage by me. You're at the mercy of the corporations so many seem to hate so badly, because they have made it impossible for anyone to compete against them.

There is the Obama legacy.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: Milehigh


Also, dont you think 600billion a year on the military is a bit too much considering the situation you re in? Imagine a cut of 200 billion injected in health services and universal insurrance? Is your number one threat muslims terrorist, north korea etc or your heart problems and your wive's pancreas?

Since this is the Mud Pit, I can speak frankly: my number one threat is the government blowing smoke up my ass, and people telling me it's for my own good. My heart is fine. My wife's a1c is down to 6.8. I'm not worried about North Korea beating us in a war, but I also don't think letting them shoot a nuke tied to one of their rattletrap rockets is a good idea. I'm not worried about Muslims, but I think it's a good idea to not let terrorists kill people, especially here.

I am worried about not being able to get a job because an illegal immigrant already has it. Build the wall!

If you want to curb military spending, the only solution is to stay out of places we don't need to be in... like Iraq. But we're already there, and we have to finish what we started. I blame Bush for lying his way around 911 to get us there, and Obama for leaving it in a mess... that mess was what allowed ISIS to form in the first place.

But that isn't the only fat that can be cut. One of Trump's best moves so far was forcing budget adherence on aircraft. Contractors account for a huge amount of our military spending, and need to be held to their contracts like normal businesses are. Currently, government contracts are seen as a bottomless money jar, and that has to stop.

To stay on topic... I would support single-payer (government-provided healthcare) before I would support either Obamacare or this latest excuse for a fail. Anything that actually addresses health care instead of insurance care could be a good thing.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: Gumerk
a reply to: SBMcG




Conservatism is all about more freedom, smaller government, and more personal responsibility.


And leaving millions uninsured while telling them they now have the access to healthcare they've always needed even though it doesn't do them any good because they can't afford it so they're left to live under rugged individualism while the conservatives give out huge amounts of subsidies via tax payer dollars to the super rich so they can live under corporate socialism and keep the checks coming in for the 'God Fearing' conservatives that somehow magically can't see all the human suffering around them for the giant log of corporatism in their eye.

That same 'magic' somehow stops voters from seeing the huge amounts of subsidies they are furnishing to corporations through their income and also magically makes them forget to complain about it with the same passion they do versus social welfare for We The People. Perhaps all check stubs should be much more detailed to match reality.

They chomp at the bit to bring in oil from Canada telling We The People it's safe and sound while in the same breath telling us we can't bring in prescription drugs from Canada to lower the insanely high costs here in the United States because they're too dangerous.

I'll happily pay my taxes so my fellow Americans can have a better quality of life. Those corporations and the super rich can try rugged individualism for a while or forever.


First of all, I am an agnostic, so your "God-fearing" and "magic" comments are wasted on me.

There is no Constitutional "right" to taxpayer-funded healthcare. If the people of a state decide they want a single-payer socialized medical system, they have every right to do so under the 10th Amendment.

Trying to guilt those who oppose government mandated wealth redistribution by claiming they are hardhearted is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. I have paid vast amounts of taxes in my life -- I won't bother guesstimating a figure because you probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

The vast majority of those who demand free healthcare the most and the loudest don't pay any taxes at all.

It's still unconstitutional, but I would be less uncomfortable with a national single-payer healthcare plan if EVERYONE paid income tax. Right now, about 50% of people who receive earned income do not pay taxes.

If that means the lowest marginal rate is 1%, that's fine. But no more EITC, no more AGI, no more "low income" gimmes. If you make $10,000, you can pay $100 in taxes. You simply take $8 a month and put it in an envelope under your mattress.

It's ridiculous that the top 1/3rd of earners pay 90% of the personal income taxes in this country while the lowest 40% of earners COST the Treasury $650 on average. As a conservative, I know damn well how and why that bottom 40% votes and they get little sympathy from me.

This is not an issue of morality. Your "morality" might be different from my "morality" and that is a slippery slope when trying to establish public policy.

For example, one of us might think it's a "moral obligation" to make sure low income children have new shoes at taxpayer's expense. While that's a nice sentiment, where does that end? It would be nice if these children also had laptops and internet and cable TV so they could watch all the wonderful leftist propaganda on Sesame Street, right?

Who pays for that?

Leftists love to point to countries like Canada and others who have socialized medicine. They ignore the fact that most of those systems are always in crisis to one degree or another, but let's get past that. The fact is, here in the USA, we pay about 18% of our GDP in taxes. In single-payer nations like Canada, they pay about 40%.

Do you know what would happen to capital investment, job creation, and economic activity if taxes were more than doubled -- most of that burden going directly to the jobs-creators themselves?



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: SBMcG


First of all, I am an agnostic, so your "God-fearing" and "magic" comments are wasted on me.


The 'God Fearing' wasn't aimed at you specifically, it points out that a lot of conservatives make this claim.


There is no Constitutional "right" to taxpayer-funded healthcare. If the people of a state decide they want a single-payer socialized medical system, they have every right to do so under the 10th Amendment.


Good point. Push is on for New York Single-Payer Health Plan California to embrace single payer healthcare Perhaps if this happens it'll give us a clearer national picture.


Trying to guilt those who oppose government mandated wealth redistribution by claiming they are hardhearted is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. I have paid vast amounts of taxes in my life -- I won't bother guesstimating a figure because you probably wouldn't believe me anyway.


It wasn't meant to promote guilt, it was my observation. No real reason for me to doubt what you've payed in taxes.


The vast majority of those who demand free healthcare the most and the loudest don't pay any taxes at all.


Now, where do you get that information? Nurses pay taxes and a vast majority of them want a single payer healthcare system. Like the 185,000-member National Nurses United. National Nurses United Medicare for all


It's still unconstitutional, but I would be less uncomfortable with a national single-payer healthcare plan if EVERYONE paid income tax. Right now, about 50% of people who receive earned income do not pay taxes.


I like this idea.


If that means the lowest marginal rate is 1%, that's fine. But no more EITC, no more AGI, no more "low income" gimmes. If you make $10,000, you can pay $100 in taxes. You simply take $8 a month and put it in an envelope under your mattress.


I like this idea


It's ridiculous that the top 1/3rd of earners pay 90% of the personal income taxes in this country while the lowest 40% of earners COST the Treasury $650 on average. As a conservative, I know damn well how and why that bottom 40% votes and they get little sympathy from me.


We should all be paying our fair share.


This is not an issue of morality. Your "morality" might be different from my "morality" and that is a slippery slope when trying to establish public policy.


I think it's even more to do with 'reality'


For example, one of us might think it's a "moral obligation" to make sure low income children have new shoes at taxpayer's expense. While that's a nice sentiment, where does that end? It would be nice if these children also had laptops and internet and cable TV so they could watch all the wonderful leftist propaganda on Sesame Street, right?

Who pays for that?


Good point. Where is the max line?


Leftists love to point to countries like Canada and others who have socialized medicine. They ignore the fact that most of those systems are always in crisis to one degree or another, but let's get past that. The fact is, here in the USA, we pay about 18% of our GDP in taxes. In single-payer nations like Canada, they pay about 40%.

Do you know what would happen to capital investment, job creation, and economic activity if taxes were more than doubled -- most of that burden going directly to the jobs-creators themselves?


Well, also look at what they're getting in return for their higher tax rate -- health care, child care coverage, educational expenses, retirement pensions, sick leave, parental leave, and unemployment insurance. Surely that outweighs what we get in return now for our taxes.

Also there would be no co-pays or deductibles so the average family would save about $5800 a year to potentially go back into the economy since the lower to middle class spend the bulk of their income for stimulation and sustainability. I would really like to see the true numbers and compare 'there' to 'here' to see if it did balance out and what were the pros and cons of each.

What we have now isn't a long term answer and yeah I don't trust the government to manage it right either -- But, getting the influence of insurance companies out of our political process should promote elected officials to turn more towards and answer to their voter base instead of this small group of entities that are throwing huge amounts of money at them to buy influence. Nothing is gonna be managed right collectively in government until we start getting the influence of big money out of our political process and that's gonna take a while. But I think it'll be better than what we have now.

""First, do no harm" doesn't reconcile with "shareholder return is king".



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 05:32 PM
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a reply to: Gumerk

OK -- lots of common ground here... Forgive me if I miss a point or two -- my house is chaos right now...

When discussing single-payer nations like Canada, UK, NZ, etc..., it's important to remember that these countries have no static constitution. They make it up as they go along, so to speak. And other nations, like the Scandinavian nations, have constitutions in name only in that they are easily amended and routinely ignored by lawmakers.

Our Constitution, as I'm sure you know, was meant to be a fixed point of light that would be an immutable constant. Toward that end, the Framers went to great lengths to make it very hard to amend the original document.

That's why it's very hard to apply foreign healthcare models to our own constitutional republic. Obamacare was constructed to work its way around the Constitution, had to ultimately be passed as a tax, and because of that constitutional conflict is ultimately falling apart.

That's the main reason why universal taxpayer-sponsored healthcare can only work at the state level. Imagine the benefit of 50 consumers of a product in a free market environment. Imagine the competition between the states to come up with the best and most economically-beneficial plan.

Yes, there would be disparities in the systems between rich states (like here in Washington) and the poorer states, but that in and of itself would force those poorer states to up their game and hold their leaders to a higher standard.

I see no downside to this system. Our Framers were brilliant in that they understood the concept of "republic" and the benefits of competition.

We can do this. We just need to make the case.

Trump is not a strict constitutionalist like me, and he's stubborn as hell (we have that in common), but I am hoping that when the dust settles on the Obamacare/Ryancare debacle we might see a more 10th Amendment-friendly solution to national healthcare out of the Administration.

have a great Saturday afternoon.




posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: SBMcG

Good stuff!

Thank you sir, and you too.



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 11:07 PM
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a reply to: Gumerk

You know Gunmerk, it's all about our priorities, when we continuously give most of our tax dollars to bloated defense contractors or the pentagon we lose collectively, because we make more arms than all nations combined and yet we are scared, why?? because those arms will be used against foreigners, which inevitably cause blow back which makes us scared, which makes us spend more on the wrong things which..you see where this is going, Taxes even if they are high but ppl could see the intimidate benefits would not mind so much, but those societies do not overspend on stuff that only a few benefit from, our politicians love to thank military personnel for their service use us as props but fail to invest in them, invest in people is a good thing the happiness index or quality of life is what we should strive for, when we pass through a run down neighborhood or step over a homeless person on the way to the bank it diminishes us all .



posted on Mar, 25 2017 @ 11:30 PM
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As said above, states are fully able to create their own healthcare.

I hope the OP knows what is going to happen.
Obamacare will be repealed.
There will be a new plan.

I would bet when this is all settled, the bill will.
1)Allow and encourage large HSA's See Rand Paul
2) Tort Reform
3) Interstate Insurance
4) Prescription price changes, FDA regs loosened
5) tax exempt groups for insurance pooling

and possibly
6) Some sort of catastrophic government backed insurance

I trust in the Freedom Caucus to stop the RINO's and the Democrats from getting any garbage passed.



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