Taoism, a mor advanced way of life.

an Odd yet a superiopr way of thinking. Only if there were more...

Taoism "Way of life"

actually there is. Take a look into Zen Buddhism. It's Buddhism with the Tao

More what? More than just that page or more 'advanced ways of thinking'?

What makes it 'advanced'?

read the "Tao of Physics"

it gives clear cut evidence that Taoism and Modern Quantum Physics are virtually the same verbally

just modern quantum physics is capable of putting those words into mathematical form

therefore; givin the striking similaritys between Taoism and Quantum Physics
it Is an advanced form of thought

logical deduction

Haven't read the book, don't plan on tho. Taoism is not just quantum mechanics sans math and formulae.

Tao - ism, is the only system I ever heard of that works, and accurately describes anything.

With everything else there is always a "yeah but that doesn't explain how......"


the Tao that can be commented upon is not the eternal Tao

Wu-wei the art of doing nothing effectively

Tao is amazing... there are even traces of quantum uncertainty principles in there.

Quality thinking ;p

I read the entire article, but where is this quantum mechanics some are talking about? All I read is philosophy.

I didn't read the article, I have read The Tao of Physics tho', that's a good read.

For how consciousness is the key decider, the observer effect - see Schrodinger's wave function equation. That Neptunian Psi...........

It Just Is, if It is watched then it is different to what It Is, different to when It is not watched or observed in any way.

When a thing is observed you are adding all that you are to all that it is.

Can anyone observe without making too many ripples, so many ripples that they distort what they are observing and then they just are commenting on themselves, doing the observing wrongly. Yes, I've seen plenty of evolved folk that can look at the world properly, but there's a whole lot that can't.

Originally posted by duff beer dragon
I didn't read the article, I have read The Tao of Physics tho', that's a good read.

For how consciousness is the key decider, the observer effect - see Schrodinger's wave function equation. That Neptunian Psi...........

It Just Is, if It is watched then it is different to what It Is, different to when It is not watched or observed in any way.

When a thing is observed you are adding all that you are to all that it is.

Can anyone observe without making too many ripples, so many ripples that they distort what they are observing and then they just are commenting on themselves, doing the observing wrongly. Yes, I've seen plenty of evolved folk that can look at the world properly, but there's a whole lot that can't.

That can very vaguely be taken to be similar to uncertainly principle. However, you would be overstating yourself to say this is describing quantum theory. Otherwise all I hear is a philosophical thought, that is also circular reasoning and very typical of ancient Chinese philosophy who were very fond of logical paradoxes(koans) It is a bit like saying "you cannot see it or know it, because by seeing it or knowing it, it changes to something else"

Originally posted by duff beer dragon
For how consciousness is the key decider, the observer effect - see Schrodinger's wave function equation.

This is a far cry from any taoist idea of 'perception and illusion'. Infact those ideas are hardly specific to taoism. QM is an actual measurement and verifification of the 'things' that esoteric philosophy merely supposes to exist.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by duff beer dragon
For how consciousness is the key decider, the observer effect - see Schrodinger's wave function equation.

This is a far cry from any taoist idea of 'perception and illusion'. Infact those ideas are hardly specific to taoism. QM is an actual measurement and verifification of the 'things' that esoteric philosophy merely supposes to exist.

The scientists who created QM first merely supposed those esoteric ideas existed...and then they created QM models to support it.

Perhaps they read ancient esoteric wisdom for insight? Regardless, just because Daoism doesn't have scientific models doesn't mean they didn't understand in their own right precisely what QM is attempting to describe.

If you were to take alot of Daoist ideas and convert them--make them more modern with scientific terms--you would have quantum theories and not traditional newtonian ones. I think that's what is trying to be said here about Taoism.

Indigo Child you say you read philosophy then I would highly suggest you read into Daoism, Zen Buddhism, and the like. Eastern esoteric wisdom is philosophy =)

Edit: NM Indigo Child, I misread your post hehe...but I still suggest it for good reading =)

[edit on 042828p://6u11 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
The scientists who created QM first merely supposed those esoteric ideas existed...and then they created QM models to support it.

They did experiments to gather observations on which to base the theories and the models.

Perhaps they read ancient esoteric wisdom for insight?
I think that they in fact did not.

just because Daoism doesn't have scientific models doesn't mean they didn't understand in their own right precisely what QM is attempting to describe.

Similiarly, just because they have vauge ideas about 'perception' and what not does not mean that they have any idea what QM is talking about.

If you were to take alot of Daoist ideas and convert them--make them more modern with scientific terms--you would have quantum theories and not traditional newtonian ones.

If you take anything and replace its terms with QM terms then you have something like QM tho.

Nothing reads more like a fortune cookie than the Tao, eh?

Pick up a copy of the Tao Te Tsing for a nice mess with the head....

Originally posted by Nygdan

just because Daoism doesn't have scientific models doesn't mean they didn't understand in their own right precisely what QM is attempting to describe.

Similiarly, just because they have vauge ideas about 'perception' and what not does not mean that they have any idea what QM is talking about.

Haha okay I can play this game Nygdan.

Similiarly, just because you post on a forum about QM doesn't mean you have any idea what QM is talking about.

If you were to take alot of Daoist ideas and convert them--make them more modern with scientific terms--you would have quantum theories and not traditional newtonian ones.

If you take anything and replace its terms with QM terms then you have something like QM tho.

That's not what I said Nygdan. I didn't say replace it with QM terms, I said scientific terms.

Anyways, all I meant by that was to rationalize in behalf of the other posters what they meant by Daoism being similar to quantum theory IMO.


[edit on 072828p://9u19 by Lucid Lunacy]

I have been waiting a while to comment on this thread, waiting to see what came up for discussion. There have been a good number of replies, but I think the quality of the original information provided was somewhat lacking. There are many good books, many good sites, but in the end it is a personal journey with a landscape unique to the individual.

I've studied the Tao for a long time, since I was 14. I have a fair grasp of the general principles and more importantly I no longer feel the need to seek assurances from others as to the 'right way.' That said, I want to adress the comments made before adding my own two cents at the end.

Transmission
First off, thank you for posting this, it was a nice surprise to find it here on ATS, the usual domain of reptiles and sun cruisers. Now on to your post, what do you want more of? There are practically infinite resources available for those interested in the Tao. If you want more people to follow the Tao, you're losing sight of the individualist mindset necessary to walk the difficult path of self realization. If you worry about your neighbor's footsteps, you will invariably trip.

Nygdan
The Tao is superior in that it suits anyone and everyone, and because it is not an organized religion it avoids the pitfalls most commonly associated with religion. There are no biases, there are no chosen people, there are no priests, no bishops, no inquisitors, no yogis. There is no dogma. There is no judgement. There is no fear, there is no damnation. There is no monetary sacrifice, there is no secrecy. There is no failure, only stillness and varying degrees of movement. The Tao does not rely on dead martyrs, it does not glorify the dead, nor disrespect them in any way. The Tao does not demand sacrifice, only discipline. Logic and faith are the pre-eminent principles of the Tao, they are the most powerful and awe inspiring of all man's multitudinous abilities. The Tao is superior because it was not created, crafted, or devised. The Tao comes naturally to every living creature, including man. It really is the way of all life. Regarding your later post - to suppose is simple and common, to believe is divine. Man makes the world with his mind, with his perception. To walk without direction, without fear, without hesitation and presumption, is to destroy the world and reside within the palace of the mind. To walk without walking is to transcend death. It took me a decade to figure that one out. You won't believe me of course, but that just proves my point.

Corinthas
Quality thinking it most certainly is. Of course, all the masters did was think. They spent so much time deep in thought, it's no wonder they got so good at it. Practice makes perfect just like martial arts.

Gazrok
How do I rate on your fortune cookie meter?


I believe that Nietzsche came quite close to the ideas presented by the Tao with his concept of the overman. Many dislike him because they consider his philosophy imoral, but I ask you; what is typical morality besides on person adopting the paradigm of another? To walk another's path is to neglect your own.

Six ideals to remember: Freedom, self, nature, impermanence, simplicity, solitude. -- Jiyu, jiko, shizen, mujo, wabi, sabi. I sometimes get full body shivers just thinking about the magnificent picture these six words paint.

I'd like to end with a few Haiku. These were written by my favorite poet, my favorite monk, the only man I've ever loved, Santoka Taneda.

Without anger, without speaking,
without covetousness,
Walk slowly, walk steadily!
-----------------------------
Silently, I put on
today's straw sandals
-----------------------------
At the foot of a mountain,
Several graves stand together
In the warm sunlight
-----------------------------
Pressing on and on,
Until finally falling down;
The grass along the roadside.
-----------------------------
Weeds that may die
Any time
Blooming and seeding.
----------------------------
Pricks and Pussies,
Boiling together
in the overcrowded bath.
----------------------------
So happy to be born,
the baby opens
and closes his hands.
----------------------------
When I die:
Weeds, falling rain.
----------------------------


That was the last Haiku he wrote, he died later the same evening.

I hope you all have enjoyed this little break from the usual ATS fare. I know I have.

My thanks again go out to Transmission, who started this thread and provided such a good oppurtunity for discussion. Cheers!

Indigo Child you say you read philosophy then I would highly suggest you read into Daoism, Zen Buddhism, and the like. Eastern esoteric wisdom is philosophy =)

Edit: NM Indigo Child, I misread your post hehe...but I still suggest it for good reading =)

I shall. However, I still don't understand what is "advanced" about Taoism and in what regards and relative to what? So far the examples that have been produced have not suggested anything "advanced" Can you produce better examples.

I am very interested in ancient physics. However, I have not seen evidence for quantum theory in Taoism. I've seen it in Hinduism. Then again, that is because I have not looked too much at Taoism.

Can someone produce any examples of quantum theory or physics in Taoism?

Indigo
I'll tell you the story of Lu Dongbin, in answer to you question. To really understand the concepts take years of study. Similar to all the ancient myseries, the language is coded to a certain degree. Upon realization of meaning, power is granted immediately.

The story goes something like this. Some time during the Han dynasty, the emperor commanded one of his generals to take an army and secure the border of Tibet. The general's name was Han Zhongli. He fought bravely alongside his army, but they were massacred in battle.

Han Zhongli fled the battle and retreated into the mountains where he was able to evade capture above the snow line. He found a hut, and dove inside. There sat a small, very old, white haired man. The old man looked up calmly at the intrusion, and said to Han Zhongli, "I have been waiting through the ages for you to come. I know that it is your destiny to achieve immortality, and I have come to teach you the way."

Han Zhongli of course agreed, and over a period of time the old sage taught his new pupil qigong and meditation, and imparted on him a great wisdom. Han Zhongli left when his training was completed, and as he walked down the path, he turned to look but the hut was gone, along with the old man. His emperor was long dead, his family gone, all the children he had known were old and toothless. He had not aged, but the place he returned to had decayed considerably.

Eventually Han Zhongli met a man named Lu Dongbin on his travels. There are many stories concerning them, but the one that's most important to your question is the hardest to understand. It's one of the final understandings pertaining to transcendence.

Lu Dongbin was adept at martial arts, poetry, and sorcery of the highest order even before he met his master Han Zhongli, but he was incredibly undisciplined. He chased girls and caused trouble all over earth and the heavens. Lu was the ultimate Scholar Warrior but he was like a child in many ways, and didn't act at all like a God ought to. He had the habit of making ordinary humans into immortals just to see the results, which were almost always catastrophic. This alone caused all kinds of havoc, and along with his womanizing was a major irritant to his master Han Zhongli.

Often, Lu Dongbin would be late to his lessons because he was bedding a woman somewhere, and Han Zhongli eventually had enough. Late once again to his lessons, Lu Dongbin arrived to find something called the Eight Brocades Qigong scrawled on the wall of the cave where they were to meet. His master had become so irritated in waiting, he had written the lesson on the cave wall and departed (this is the story of how ordinary man was given knowledge of the Eight Brocades).

Lu Dongbin felt ashamed to have disrespected his master so, and kept his next appointment with Han Zhongli, even though he knew his master would be upset with him. The master was indeed upset, and he berated Lu Dongbin, saying "In spite of the fact that you are an immortal, you are far from perfect! Although you are adept in the arts of the book and the arts of war, you are still not mature. You seduce women in heaven and on earth, upset the natural scheme of things, interfere with other people's destiny, play cruel tricks, and occupy your mind with trivial things. You hold great power, but your mind still wavers. You are supernatural, yet you have not perceived the true nature of life."

Lu Dongbin knew his master was right. Lu understood the power he held, but realized he still needed instruction; he was not complete. Just as the Jade Emperor, the highest god in the pantheon, received tutelage from Lao Tzu, so must "The Great Lu Dongbin" receive the teachings of his master. He realized this, and his master knew it also, by the way his pupil sat abashed in silence for some time. When he finally spoke, after much consideration, he asked his master, "How should any person, man or woman, learn the ultimate truth?"

His master deigned to answer him, because he felt his pupil had realized his weakness, and was ready for the greatest wisdom. The answer to that most important question was this, "He should realize emptiness, that is the only wisdom that goes beyond both skill and knowledge."

The master knew, and Lu Dongbin understood then, nothing is the source of everything. Everything is contained in nothing, so that nothing is always pregnant with something.

That is one of the fundamental connections between Quantum Mechanics and Taoism, but much of what is taught remains hidden in verse and parable, inscrutable to all but dedicated monks and scholars. There are many, many books to read.

Much of the true mystery is never written down, because it might fall into the wrong hands. That treasured knowledge is held in the minds of the great masters alone. It can be interpreted from the written text, but is never explicity said to prevent laymen from accessing it and mis-using it. Not all of mankind is ready for the things that can be learned, but with discipline and study any man can acheive some level of understanding.

The power is enormous, and not for fools or those who are mad with what little power they already possess. I can't really say any more about it, other than advise people to study the many original writings and the all-important oral tradition - under a qualified master of course.

Thanks, Wyder, for that very interesting story. I am afraid, however, I saw no quantum theory yet again. Again, what you described is the quintessential Chinese philosopy of logical paradoxs.

It is difficult for me as an objective thinker to conclude that the words "nothing is everything" means the constant fluctuations of virtual quanta from the quantum vacuum.

This is a part of quantum theory, however it is not what quantum theory is all about. Quantum theory is the theory that energy is comprised of discreet units of quanta, and is not continuous as postulated by classical physics, though exhibits both wave and particle behavior. It deals subatomic physics and energy physics and quantum electrodynamics.

Now, in the vedic cosmology, an ancient physical system that really does describe quantum and field theory, the conclusion can readily be made. The following are described and the context of atomism is specified. So, there is little room for relative interpretation.

The universe is described as timeless and being composed of fundamental qualities(called the three Gunas)

There are five main elements: fire(energy), earth(atomic elements, wind(fields of attraction and repulsion) water(fluid) and ether(vacuum energy). Now, all of these, except ether, are comprised of an aggregation of unique atoms and the atom that cannot be divided any further is called the paramanu(meaning: beyond atom)

All of the kinds of matter of electromagnetic energy, atomic elements, fluid, and fields are thus seen as being comprised of discreet units. Light is seen as being comprised of high velocity particles. The order in which these elements aggregate in the universe is specified as the following: vacuum energy, fields, electromagnetic energy; atomic elements and fluid.

After the physical, are the subtle or the virtual world which comprised of the 5 tanmatras(quarks?) and 3 gunas(virtual particles?) that are in turn are all vibrating at a distinct frequency like quantum strings to produce matter. The ethers or quantum strings themselves are part of a super vibration of a life force. This is what forms the Hindu philosophy of absolute and ultimate reality and of all being one with it.

To summarize:

From big to small:

Fluid(molecule)
Atomic elements
Electromagnetic energy
Fields of attraction and repulsion
Tanmatras
Gunas
Ethers
Life force

So, here we don't see mysterious and seemingly rhetorical statements like "all becomes one and one becomes all" we see an entire explanation of quantum theory that combines many branches of quantum theory: superstring, vacuum, symmetry, particle and GUT(Grand unified theory).

This is the kind of proof I will accept for knowledge of quantum theory in taoism.

[edit on 11-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]

Gazrok
How do I rate on your fortune cookie meter?

Ahh, you took it as if I said sounding like a fortune cookie was a bad thing... No, indeed not. There is some wisdom there...and I've studied the tao somewhat, just not my bag....