Sinn Féin's Martin McGuinness dies aged 66

I'm conflicted here.

On one hand, I lost a mate over there and had quite a close shave myself.
As some have said, he never publicly repented or showed remorse for those killed and maimed by his organisation.


On the other hand, he certainly did his bit to try and make some sort of peace in the North.

And can you really blame a man who takes up arms against the society that ignores and oppresses his people?
Lets not sugar coat this, the Catholic population in the north were treated awfully by the Protestant majority, so bad that the British army had to be sent in to ensure some sort of order.

Northern Ireland has been a bloody mess ever since the separation of the Six Counties from the Republic. I think he played his part in making the best of a bad job.

There but for the grace of god go we.
Some love him, some loathe him, neither side is entirely right nor entirely wrong.
He was just a man who did what he thought he should and, for those he represented, did his best.

RIP (from me, an average Brit).

originally posted by: robbeh
bout time he was a peice of # terrorist ..gd riddance

Terrorist : a person who employs terror or terrorism, esp as a political weapon.

Just take that in for a minute.

The british had an army, with all that goes with an army. Tanks, guns, helicopters, thousands of soldiers, barracks, free reign, unlimited budget etc.

We wanted the crown out of our country, we wanted a united Ireland. After centuries of oppression under british rule enough was enough.

The IRA had nothing but guns, volunteers and determination.
Any group fighting against a ruling government are described as terrorists.

The IRA didnt have the numbers of volunteer soldiers to defeat the british. Or the weaponry.
It was decided to bring the battle to the british mainland, drastic steps were needed.

The bombing campaign began.
There isnt really another way to bring down a government, at least bring them to talks.
The stubbornness of thatcher, "we dont negotiate with terrorists", ensured years of bombing on the mainland.

These days in the middle east its suicide bombers. Any anti government group dont have any other way. They dont have the resources or numbers.

How would all you english like it if the french were in a corner or your country beating and degrading and murdering your people for hundreds of years, and refused to leave?
Told you what you can and cant do. Marched through your towns every year playing french rebel music?
And you are supposed to be happy with it and be a good little citizen and do what you're told?

Think you could put up with that?

I am not condoning civilian deaths, but there will always be casualties in battle

originally posted by: SecretKnowledge
The IRA had nothing but guns, volunteers and determination.
Any group fighting against a ruling government are described as terrorists.

Most people take the view that as the IRA went out of their way to murder people in order to cajoul and force their views they were terrorists. They used the psychology and techniques of terror.

Not to mention the "disappeared" who were abducted civilians that were tortured and executed for a range of paranoid reasons. Even now their remains are being found. There's a bit of fear for you. Not the British Army, but some “inspired volunteers” kicking your door down and dragging off your mum because she (apparently) smiled at a squaddie. The IRA did not deliver flowers to either sectartian divide.

Like most terrorist groups, the IRA was populated by psychopaths who got a buzz out of killing people in shopping centres.

Martin McGuiness, the subject of this OP was one of those thugs. Let's not forget that.

originally posted by: SecretKnowledge

originally posted by: robbeh
bout time he was a peice of # terrorist ..gd riddance

Terrorist : a person who employs terror or terrorism, esp as a political weapon.

Just take that in for a minute.

The british had an army, with all that goes with an army. Tanks, guns, helicopters, thousands of soldiers, barracks, free reign, unlimited budget etc.

We wanted the crown out of our country, we wanted a united Ireland. After centuries of oppression under british rule enough was enough.

SOME people wanted a united Ireland. The majority didn't, as was and still is evident by the democratic process.

The IRA had nothing but guns, volunteers and determination.
Any group fighting against a ruling government are described as terrorists.

Precisely. The military are the legally armed force behind the democratically elected government in place. A terrorist uses fear and suffering to enforce the views of the minority on that of the majority, which is the complete opposite of democracy.

The IRA didnt have the numbers of volunteer soldiers to defeat the british. Or the weaponry.
It was decided to bring the battle to the british mainland, drastic steps were needed.

The bombing campaign began.
There isnt really another way to bring down a government, at least bring them to talks.
The stubbornness of thatcher, "we dont negotiate with terrorists", ensured years of bombing on the mainland.

So the idea was to bomb innocent people who had nothing to do with any of it? That's some real freedom fighter stuff right there.

You do realise that the IRA were directly responsible for killing more Catholics (the people they were supposedly protecting from oppression) during the Troubles than the entire number of people killed by the British Army over the same period?

In Londonderry while McGuinness was 2IC of the IRA they destroyed 130 of the 150 commercial businesses in the city centre, putting hundreds of Catholics out of work. McGuinness himself blamed the civilians for getting blown up, and never once apologised for stating this.

How would all you english like it if the french were in a corner or your country beating and degrading and murdering your people for hundreds of years, and refused to leave?
Told you what you can and cant do. Marched through your towns every year playing french rebel music?
And you are supposed to be happy with it and be a good little citizen and do what you're told?

Think you could put up with that?

That is a strawman argument. Northern Ireland was formed through several democratic processes through the separation of the Island of Ireland. The majority of those in the North want to be part of the UK. Some don't and want to force their views on others through violence.

Such violence led to the separation of Ireland, allowing the majority to have their own state, while letting those who wanted to remain under British rule remain. The violence at that time was based on the views of the majority. The recent Troubles however is based on the demands of a minority. Anyone who supports democracy cannot support anti-democratic violence.

BTW I'm from N. Ireland, born and raised with a Catholic father and a Protestant mother. I lived through the 70s, 80s and 90s in Belfast. I remember the violence and fear caused by terrorists from both sides of the political divide. I remember the bombings, shootings, the fear if dad was 5 minutes late home from work in case he had been killed. I cannot ever support terrorists who forced this on me and my community.

a reply to: SecretKnowledge

remind me again - what happened in 1921? [of critical relevance to this thread]