I Want help with this potential SJW paradox

originally posted by: scubagravy

originally posted by: ms898
a reply to: eletheia

I understand what you are saying but in the context of a person born biologically male and someone who believes gender plays no part in interests how could you define yourself as woman and if you did would that make the term woman useless?

Science has not proven that biologically this takes place, hence my referral some posts back.... environmental.

The issue is definition and beliefs. The conflict occurs because without defining what a woman is they cannot define themself a woman

originally posted by: ms898
I understand what you are saying but in the context of a person born biologically male and someone who believes gender plays no part in interests how could you define yourself as woman and if you did would that make the term woman useless?

I have the body of a woman ..... too much so for my liking, I wish I had been

more flat chested, and had I been I wouldn't have felt less feminine. I think

it is because who I am is who I want to be is in my mind/brain.


I am down to earth and practical and will not be beaten ....*I can and I will*

is my theme, which I think is considered a male characteristic? However it sits

quite comfortably with my overt femininity.

So it could be said a contradiction in terms??


I would say I exist in my body ..... but live in my mind Does that make sense

a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Environmental aspects..... science that.

If a child grows and sees what it sees, then its like a subject (science or maths), they see for so long what is going on that stuff seems normal. to be honest, # it, ill be honest here;

I have a couple of trans mates, and a # load of gay mates, they know where i stand, but i see them as people,as mates, and i am very acceptable compared to other mates in our group. I will say that my gay mates (even through conversation) they are scared of women, they are intimidated by them.

I used to think gays were weak because of this, my attitude changed over time realising how tough it would be to be them.

But # it, # this thread, and # weak #'s who cant afford to give real # a crack


Good Luck F#'s

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Environmental aspects..... science that.

If a child grows and sees what it sees, then its like a subject (science or maths), they see for so long what is going on that stuff seems normal. to be honest, # it, ill be honest here;

I have a couple of trans mates, and a # load of gay mates, they know where i stand, but i see them as people,as mates, and i am very acceptable compared to other mates in our group. I will say that my gay mates (even through conversation) they are scared of women, they are intimidated by them.

I used to think gays were weak because of this, my attitude changed over time realising how tough it would be to be them.

But # it, # this thread, and # weak #'s who cant afford to give real # a crack


Good Luck F#'s

This thread is not judging anyone and it is perfectly fine to be whoever you want to be. I think you are still not grasping the point of this thread. There are definitely differences between a gay male and a biological male who identifies as a woman.

It's a well-thought-out question, but from what I have observed 'progressive thought' and 'logic' don't work well together. It seems like feelings eclipse reason in most cases.

Personally I don't think that any person is born feeling like a man or woman. They pick up cues from society (which has its own ideas on masculinity and femininity) plus internal hormonal signals for pro-nurturing, pro-aggressive, pro-protection, pro-territoriality, etc, and weave all that into the individual that they will become.

If you put 100 men into a room and asked them to write down a single paragraph of what it means to be a man, you will get 100 different paragraphs (same for women/woman.). There will likely be a bell curve towards common paradigms, but otherwise they are all different people. We are individuals (mentally and emotionally) wrapped in physical biological shells that define us as male or female.

a reply to: eletheia

I am not talking asking in the context of you or anyone else only the hypothetical persons perspective.

In this context could a biological male who has the society held male gender interests claim he was a woman?

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman. You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society. You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

I am genuinely interested in what ATS thinks about this. For the record, I have deep respect for transgender people and believe people are born with gender interests.

The reason for this topic is that I know there is a lot of discussion in society about innate gender interests and whether they exist which i find interesting.

People may "be born with interests", though I believe those "interests" actually develop over time based on exposure and opportunity.

"Gender" is a label applied by culture/society. It is a convenient contrivance, but nothing more, and as such, does not relate, directly, to anything "real" any more than "blue" relates to a specific color, rather than a range of color within the spectrum.

Again, if you were to wear an all-encompassing "mask" which made you appear to the public as biological opposite of your current body, would that change who You were or how you felt?

And so it is with those who are non-cis-gender.

originally posted by: ms898
a reply to: eletheia

I am not talking asking in the context of you or anyone else only the hypothetical persons perspective.

In this context could a biological male who has the society held male gender interests claim he was a woman?

Ummm...to answer your question...yes...yes they could...

It's easy to sit back and make a judgement without being the experiencer...
If there are examples of physical anomalies as per sexuality...then it stands to reason that such could also be expressed in an ideative state as well...

I would remind that there is far more to be learned than what is known about what it means to be human...how one defines consciousness...how that conscious state coupled with curiosity and intellect expresses self and how this expression is represented from the soup of hormonal/chemical balance/imbalance...

As you can see I attempted to leave environment/societal/peer pressures out of my thoughts on this...


YouSir

originally posted by: ms898

I am not talking asking in the context of you or anyone else only the hypothetical persons perspective.
In this context could a biological male who has the society held male gender interests claim he was a woman?

Nobody can imagine or know how another feels ...... they can

empathise they can imagine but they can never know.

No two people are alike, proved by unique DNA.

You can 101 answers to your question .... none will be right and none will be wrong.

Hypothesis is a shot in the dark, so whats the likely hood of hitting the target?

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
Personally I don't think that any person is born feeling like a man or woman.

Lol!!! Thats what I tried to intimate in my first post ..... they just feel like "Them"

They pick up cues from society (which has its own ideas on masculinity and femininity) plus internal hormonal signals for pro-nurturing, pro-aggressive, pro-protection, pro-territoriality, etc, and weave all that into the individual that they will become.

That I suppose is what happens when in puberty as groups we get teens trying

to define themselves, and gravitating to like minded groups as in the past there

were. mods and rockers, Hippies, goths, emo's etc. etc.

If you put 100 men into a room and asked them to write down a single paragraph of what it means to be a man, you will get 100 different paragraphs (same for women/woman.). There will likely be a bell curve towards common paradigms, but otherwise they are all different people. We are individuals (mentally and emotionally) wrapped in physical biological shells that define us as male or female.

I'm currently working on my Associates in Communications and the one class I am taking is gender communications.

I really would like to drop some peer-review and scholarly material, but I got a six page essay to complete on a comparative analysis on Media and gender. I just keep getting sucked into the forums...

I'll see what I can do later, Star and Flag.

a reply to: YouSir
If you were the person I described in the opening post and you didn't believe in gender different interests would it not be true that any feeling you had you could classify as being something a male could feel?
What would be the reason under that context to call yourself a woman?

What feelings/thoughts would you ascribe to being woman and if you didn't how could you then describe yourself as a woman?

The point being I believe you couldnt. Any word on society gets its value from an agreement we all make about what it means. If it means nothing/anything then there should be no such thing as gender.

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman. You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society. You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

I am genuinely interested in what ATS thinks about this. For the record, I have deep respect for transgender people and believe people are born with gender interests.

The reason for this topic is that I know there is a lot of discussion in society about innate gender interests and whether they exist which i find interesting.

They get around that paradox by omitting any gender terms such as man/ woman/ he / she. Instead they use thing like Mx. to replace Mr./ miss.

Gender is a construct. People are individuals.

Proof? If there was no such thing as "sci fi" there'd be no people claiming to be cyborgs.

originally posted by: Arnie123
I'm currently working on my Associates in Communications and the one class I am taking is gender communications.

I really would like to drop some peer-review and scholarly material, but I got a six page essay to complete on a comparative analysis on Media and gender. I just keep getting sucked into the forums...

I'll see what I can do later, Star and Flag.

You may be interested to look at this site -

www.feministcurrent.com...

Once there, look at their commentary about "trans gender" issues. Search the older articles there.

From what I have read, the argument is that there shouldn't be any TG issues because gender is a construct.

Might be some things here that can help you with your paper. Or they could lead you to other ideas, the new topics there might be related and you could ask someone in the forums for other things to read.

Editing to add - if you (or anyone) looks at that site - don't mistake it as "conservative". From their complaints about "liberal feminism". It's (they call themselves) "radfem" and it does have a L bent, edging towards far L.
You have to read enough there to catch that. Hey - it's what education is all about! Critical thinking.
And I just wanted to make sure that you get your arguments and citations correct too

I remember being in school too! Tech stuff, mostly. You still have to take the other subjects and it's overall to teach you to think critically.

MATH can be said as an exercise to get you to think critically.
(Don't go down this path, any more than required, unless you are already or don't mind to be in the future - nuts.)

originally posted by: FalseMove
Gender is a construct. People are individuals.

Proof? If there was no such thing as "sci fi" there'd be no people claiming to be cyborgs.

A construct is still a definable thing. If the hypothetical person in the OP felt that gender was just a construct then why would they feel the need to call themself a woman?

Surely attaching a description of woman to your identity has meaning/traits attached to it. Inferring gender has no meaning/traits then becomes pointless.

a reply to: FalseMove

That is a radical feminist TERF group. They are mostly labeled as hate groups because they believe in a very specific and narrow version of feminism that is not intersectional. For the most part, many exclude based on women who didn't have the same experience as they did as a woman. This could mean excluding non-western women, poor women, religious women, curvy women, and of course, trans women.

If your feminism contains body shaming, racism, jingoism, classism, religious discrimination, or transphobia... who is your feminism for?

a reply to: ms898

The question itself is meant as a gotcha moment for liberals. The truth is that gender dysphoria affects a sufferer's well-being regarding their sex and "gender construct" is based on gender roles.

So no, there is not conflict of ideology unless you take the "gender is a construct" theory so far as to dismiss any and all innate traits typically expressed by both men and women. Gender dysphoria, on the other hand, isn't a dissatisfaction of performing gender roles associated with the sex assigned to them at birth.

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: ms898

The question itself is meant as a gotcha moment for liberals. The truth is that gender dysphoria affects a sufferer's well-being regarding their sex and "gender construct" is based on gender roles.

So no, there is not conflict of ideology unless you take the "gender is a construct" theory so far as to dismiss any and all innate traits typically expressed by both men and women. Gender dysphoria, on the other hand, isn't a dissatisfaction of performing gender roles associated with the sex assigned to them at birth.

The question is a thought experiment of a person who believes that there are no gender traits but also wants to identify as a woman being born a biological male. If i am understanding you correctly i am assuming by "sex" you mean genitalia. the feeling that a person feels that they are in the wrong body? if that is what you are saying then the problem of genitalia/body = gender is brought up which many liberals would disagree with.

if it has nothing to do with a feeling of a wrong body type then any feelings the person may have are to a gender neutral believing person irrelevant because those feelings could be ascribed to either gender.

originally posted by: ms898

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: ms898

The question itself is meant as a gotcha moment for liberals. The truth is that gender dysphoria affects a sufferer's well-being regarding their sex and "gender construct" is based on gender roles.

So no, there is not conflict of ideology unless you take the "gender is a construct" theory so far as to dismiss any and all innate traits typically expressed by both men and women. Gender dysphoria, on the other hand, isn't a dissatisfaction of performing gender roles associated with the sex assigned to them at birth.

The question is a thought experiment of a person who believes that there are no gender traits but also wants to identify as a woman being born a biological male. If i am understanding you correctly i am assuming by "sex" you mean genitalia.

Nope. "Biological sex" is determined by several markers. Chromosomes and genitalia are the two most understood by the layperson so it is generally the ones mentioned. Biological sex is made of several determining factors including hormones, neurological markers, secondary sex characteristics, etc.

If that was the case, then a cis gender man who loses his penis because of cancer would cease to be a man. But that is not the case. Because that man would have approximately seven other equally-important gender markers that still support his claim to manhood.

originally posted by: ms898
the feeling that a person feels that they are in the wrong body? if that is what you are saying then the problem of genitalia/body = gender is brought up which many liberals would disagree with.

if it has nothing to do with a feeling of a wrong body type then any feelings the person may have are to a gender neutral believing person irrelevant because those feelings could be ascribed to either gender.

Gender dysphoria being a case of "wrong body" is the side-effect of it being difficult for cis gender person to understand so that cliche gets tossed around a lot. Instead of "wrong body", think of the trans woman in your example as having a body that is wrong. It may sound like a subtle difference but it's important.

What cures and alleviates isn't just a social transition. Hormones, for example, when corrected in a transsexual, is immensely relieving and sometimes where treatment stops (without a social transition). Often it is more. When it is more, social transition happens simply because that's what is expected of them. Why would it be fair to shame a trans woman for performing her social gender role when cis gender women do it all the time?

In other words, if transsexualism conflicts with "gender is a construct", then so would all women who dare to dress in a typically feminine fashion or express themselves in predictably "female" ways. There is nothing unique about trans folk that flies in the face of "gender is a construct" that doesn't exist in everybody who isn't 100% androgynous.