I Want help with this potential SJW paradox

Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman. You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society. You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

I am genuinely interested in what ATS thinks about this. For the record, I have deep respect for transgender people and believe people are born with gender interests.

The reason for this topic is that I know there is a lot of discussion in society about innate gender interests and whether they exist which i find interesting.

a reply to: ms898

I have two transgender mates here in Aus, one is in fashion retail, the other is a bricklayer....

Both are camp, the retailer has more leeway''?, so he lives his life more openly than my brickie mate.

Just to add, both have relatives who are transgender.


Edit.... just wanted to ask everyone here, what is the little tag at the start of this thread heading in the Recent List.... (its like a rectangle with a triangle cut out of the bottom....

a reply to: scubagravy

I accept what you're saying, but I don't feel as tho it answers the question. My question is from the hypothetical viewpoint as the person described in the topic.

I would be interested in any transgender people opinion on the topic.

a reply to: ms898

Your right, im sorry for the lame answer.

I'm one of the furthest from what your asking, but i will try to imagine and get back to you.

You have to understand that your question also raises questions, as such ;

Am i a hetro transgender or a homo transgender ( this sort of think means the world of difference)

I apologise for my lack of understanding in this field, but as you can see by the numerous replies you've had, perhaps your barking up the wrong tree. It is unfortunate because i believe there are a few good story tellers on here, and they're nowhere to be found....

But hold tight, just remember that ATS is cyclic.... over the next 24 hours different members chime in when they have the time...

Even Phage.

I personally think these gender issues are in part of a DNA/genetic or chemical imbalance in the brain. I think these issues with people dealing with not knowing what gender they are needs to be addressed by a council of scientific minds.

If only we had the technology to change someones genetics at any age or somehow look into the root cause of these abnormalities.

I'm pretty sure homo sapiens (humans) evolved to only mate male/female since the dawn of time after the dinosaurs went extinct.

No reply needed to my post but just offering my 2 cents.

a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Wow dude, did you just say 'imbalance' lol, your lucky this thread is a touchy subject...

a reply to: 4N0M4LY

I know you said not to reply but I can't help it. While I think your wrong (i won't go into it) I didn't make this topic to debate what "causes" anybody to be a certain way I made this topic to discuss this very specific hypothetical standpoint of a person with the viewpoint described.

cheers

Pretty sure most people are not born gender neutral . Both my lads gravitated towards toy trucks lego and the like and my daughter towards dolls and the like , and this was consistent among all my friends . The only common denominator was their love of the Dumbo movie . Just when i thought one had gotten over it anover fell in love .

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: ms898



You have to understand that your question also raises questions, as such ;

Am i a hetro transgender or a homo transgender ( this sort of think means the world of difference)

Yes but in the context of the person does transgender even exist?

How would such a person define what a woman is let alone someone who is born biologically male but identifies as a woman. if there are no gender interests and no biological signs what’s makes a woman a woman?

sexual preference is not a gender specific trait.

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman.

I can't because my imagination cannot imagine what anyone else feels like!

But I do know that I feel like 'what I think' that a woman feels like.

My personal curiousity is how does a biological man know how a woman feels?

They may not feel male .... but how do they know that what they do

feel is 'female' and not just something else?

You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

I don't believe in bounderies going back fifty years ago I had a female cousin who

studied engineering at uni the only female in the class and always top.


My daughters tutor in computer classes used to tell everyone she was the best

man he had ever taught!


Myself many years ago was the only woman in a sales force of over a hundred men,

and had to work twice as hard to even be considered equal, and a phychiatrist

friend told me I 'drove like a man!'

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society.

I dont think that is applicable in this day and age. For the hell of it I will always

give a job to anyone who is working in an area that is out of gender specific.

You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

I think the answer to that is yes! I tend to get side tracked or confused by sex

and gender.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

I dont know .... the way I define myself is as ME!!!!

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

ME

But I dont know if other women feel like me!

a reply to: ms898

I believe it is environmental since you asked....

In this day and age you can no longer blame the chicken.

As population grows, so does the numbers of any subject.

And social media has just topped it off.

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: 4N0M4LY

Wow dude, did you just say 'imbalance' lol, your lucky this thread is a touchy subject...

I am no scientist but I do think this deserves a scientific explaination. It cannot be explained away like some would think.

a reply to: ms898

I guess I would have to say it's more about the chemicals said persons body produces. Testosterone and estrogen are produced in differing amounts in each sex. It is obvious the woman is supposed to carry the child and care for them from birth through x amount of time. It is also obvious the man is supposed to "protect" the woman and child as the amount of testosterone produced creates a more aggressive and physically stronger body type. These are not things that, without an abnormality within the body, can be changed. Sure, a male may have low testosterone and be less aggressive or physically strong because of it, but he will never carry a child regardless of how much he may feel he is a female.

I do believe we are all born with a gender role, but I also believe that society puts a lot of pressure for everyone to fit very tightly into that role. I see little boys who have parents that don't want them to dress up in butterfly wings or wear/like the color pink. I think that's silly because it is a child's imagination that they are stifling when they do so. The quickest way to get a child to resent and rebel is to not allow certain aspects of their personality to evolve and learn.

My very honest opinion is that everyone is born with an equal need for companionship and love from both sexes, but one will prevail over time based on the "connection" that person feels. If only one sex was needed then why are both still being born? Evolution would certainly have taken care of this, or at least made it apparent one was not needed by this time in human existence.

I truly don't know enough about the internal processes that occur to make a person feel as though they are not the sex they were born though.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ms898
Imagine you are a transgender person (maybe you are) and to make things simpler for this discussion born a biological male identifying as a woman.

I can't because my imagination cannot imagine what anyone else feels like!

But I do know that I feel like 'what I think' that a woman feels like.

My personal curiousity is how does a biological man know how a woman feels?

They may not feel male .... but how do they know that what they do

feel is 'female' and not just something else?

You also identify as a progressive person who believes that we live in a world where forced societal conformity encourages gender interests on everyone at an early age.

I don't believe in bounderies going back fifty years ago I had a female cousin who

studied engineering at uni the only female in the class and always top.


My daughters tutor in computer classes used to tell everyone she was the best

man he had ever taught!


Myself many years ago was the only woman in a sales force of over a hundred men,

and had to work twice as hard to even be considered equal, and a phychiatrist friend

told me I 'drove like a man!'

You believe this forced conformity leads a majority of the society to pursue life and career choices/interests that are in line with the gender interests taught by society.

I dont think that is applicable in this day and age. For the hell of it I will always

give a job to anyone who is working in an area that is out of gender specific.

You believe that we are all born gender neutral and that there is no such thing as innate gender interests.

I think the answer to that is yes! I tend to get side tracked or confused by sex

and gender.

If you did believe these things, then how would you define yourself as a woman?

I dont know .... the way I define myself is as ME!!!!

Simply if you believe that gender plays no part in the interests a person has then being born a biological male how can you define yourself as a woman?
What is a woman?

ME

But I dont know if other women feel like me!

What she said, well done.

That was a great post mate.

a reply to: 4N0M4LY

No insult intended my friend, but if you're after science to solve this....

It's not like it hasn't been studied, but there are too many variables.

Imagine me, who didnt want to participate in this thread, but the OP went an entire hour before i even repied, it is not my field of expertise, but i felt a reply was needed. Hence where we are now.

Sorry if i offended you bud.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

Well said mate, i think i should just make like Kapusta and leave.

I simply can not keep up any longer.

a reply to: ms898


Ummm...you pose a very intriguing question...

To further your thought...I wonder what percentage or if such a state would naturally tend to cause a gender-less...neutral...or androgynous persona to arise...?

Nature has seen fit to provide examples of hermaphroditism...in which the physical aspects of bisexuality are represented in an single form...
One wonders if left to their own devices and decisions what percentage of such organisms would consciously/naturally identify as neither male or female...but some amalgamation of both ideations...

Obviously at this point there needs to be another classification...however...this is another set of questions...

Would a true androgyny arise...?
If there are examples of male/female amalgamation in a physical sense...then it would beg the question...are there such amalgamations naturally occurring persona wise...?

I would have to conclude that there must exist individuals that are balanced not just in a sexual...physical expressive manner...but in a deeper hormonal physiological...as well as an ideated self identified context as well...

Edit to add...sometimes the English language is so damned limited...so please excuse my obvious word creations in an attempt to define...

I have to leave for work now but I'll attempt to log on while there to further this conversation...


YouSir

a reply to: eletheia

I understand what you are saying but in the context of a person born biologically male and someone who believes gender plays no part in interests how could you define yourself as woman and if you did would that make the term woman useless?

Edit: If a person was to say they feel orange would it not be useless unless they could themselves define what feeling orange is? Identifying as orange becomes useless.

originally posted by: ms898
a reply to: eletheia

I understand what you are saying but in the context of a person born biologically male and someone who believes gender plays no part in interests how could you define yourself as woman and if you did would that make the term woman useless?

Science has not proven that biologically this takes place, hence my referral some posts back.... environmental.

a reply to: scubagravy

No problem at all your good .

Too many variables isnt good enough imo. Heck we studied the human g-nome and unlocked the enitre Human DNA sequence which took over 50 some odd years to de-code.

If we have the time to do that then we have the time to solve life's mysteries with what/how genders change in the human body.