Hebrews11;- Draw near with faith

a reply to: Raggedyman


Yeah, it has faults and the one tongue many tongues contradictions is less of a problem than I think the lack of description.


Like the reasoning for faith. Versus archaeological or scientific proof. Is the reason for faith so that people will rely upon choosing right versus wrong based upon their own recognizance versus an absolutely certainty of the existence of a Higher Power. And if that is the reason for having faith versus absolute proof, why does the Bible not state that being the reason for faith versus absolute proof.

a reply to: Miracula2

That's pretty disjointed statement.
Going from the bible being 100 percent accurate to archeology being evidence and then absolute proof, you are losing me with so many ideas all confused
Archeological truth, how where, archeological truth like a big statue in Egypt that archaeologists got the wrong King and wrong date for, last week is that your truth
What does the bible say about itself, well it doesn't say it's perfect about its self that's for sure
It does say Jesus is perfect though
Can you understand that, the bible is not perfect, that's what I am saying, your premise is flat out wrong
As a Christian, I don't have a problem with that, I expect that, I don't need the bible to be perfect, I need Jesus to be perfect
Ok...

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Miracula2

What does the bible say about itself, well it doesn't say it's perfect about its self that's for sure

Well then why do so many ordained ministers teach that.


en.wikipedia.org...

Biblical inerrancy, as formulated in the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy", is the doctrine that the Protestant Bible "is without error or fault in all its teaching";[1] or, at least, that "Scripture in the original manuscripts does not affirm anything that is contrary to fact".[2]

_________________________

It seems to me that when Christians do this it undermines the ability of people searching for faith to find it. They readily conclude that Christians are without logical thought, and deceptive.

Now if Christians would readily admit that the Bible contains errors then people searching for faith would learn to trust Christians.

Failing to admit inconsistencies like the many tongues or one tongue or language in Genesis 10 and 11 gives people who use a logical thought process the conclusion that Christians are nuts with small pea-sized brains and the worst part....

...in undermining the faith of potential converts untruthful Christians encourage sin on the part of those seeking faith.

a reply to: Miracula2

That's a good question, I am not fron Chicago, maybe asking them may give you an answer
As I have stated, the bible itself does not teach it is infallible and as you have pointed out yourself, it does have errors.
I don't see any point explaining what others believe, how can I
The bible does teach Jesus was perfect... That's interesting

As for Christians being disengenuos and silly, well yes, they can be can't they, no different than non christians, sorry we are not perfect

please excuse my ignorant kin, I am here apologizing for them and even agreeing with you in the truth the bible has flaws, but in their defense, they are just people

Is this really the right place to be taking shots at biblical inerrancy

Sorry Dis

a reply to: DISRAELI

I still disagree with you.

This letter was not written to new believes but to the mature who had already knowingly received the Holy Spirit.

To accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit as your guide is to put to death the body of sin and to turn towards love and virtuous living. Accepting Christ is to Know that the Holy Spirit is within you and will indeed guide you away from all deliberate sin.

In my opinion this verse covers all intentional sin. To intentionally sin is to forsake Chrsit in your heart and with your body.

This verse is not merely about believing in Christ as the son of God but about remaining obedient to righteousness and walking down the narrow path which is free from deliberate sin.

It matters not what one claims with their mouths if their hearts are still addicted to willful sin. For those who refuse to repent or who fall back into deliberate sin, the son of God is of no help to them and they should expect judgement.

Especially those who have known the truth then turn away from it. The number who have known the truth is very few in my opinion, and the opportunity to be saved from sin still remains for those who have been lead astray by false teachers.

a reply to: [post=22026479]Miracula2[/post

Hi Miracula

In answer to your question -

"The account of the confusion of tongues in 11:1-9 serves as a divider between two genealogies. The genealogy in Genesis 10 is deliberately out of chronological order because Moses wanted the account of the confusion of tongues to serve as a dividing line in the genealogy of Shem. Eber, a descendant of Shem, had two sons, Peleg and Joktam (10:25). In Genesis 10:21-31, the line of Shem is traced through Joktam. After the account of the confusion of languages at Babel, Moses traces the line of Shem through Eber’s other son, Peleg (11:10-26). It is through this line that Abraham’s genealogy is traced.

The genealogy of Genesis 10 includes some very significant historical notes. Moses pauses momentarily with Nimrod, one of the descendants of Ham. We are told that Nimrod was a mighty hunter, and that the beginning of his kingdom was Babel (10:8-12). Nimrod, in other words, was a city builder and the founder of the city of Babel. We have already been prepared for something evil, so far as this city of Babel is concerned. We are given the names of the sons of Canaan, and each of these sons becomes the patriarch of one of the Canaanite nations with whom the Israelites must later deal:" From the series: From Creation to the Cross

Now why confusion came in was for one reason only,

6 And the Lord said, Behold, THE PEOPLE IS ONE, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now NOTHING WILL BE RESTRAINED FROM THEM, WHICH THEY IMAGINE TO DO.

What was their plan? let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name

People even today want to create empires without God for their own selfish gain, there is nothing new under the sun.

There will be an Index thread for this series once we get to the end of the letter.
Maundy Thursday, I think.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Miracula2

The bible does teach Jesus was perfect
I

Sorry Dis

How can that be true?

It seems to me that Jesus when he threatened Oral Roberts with murder unless Roberts viewers would send Robert's tv evangelist ministry 8 million dollars that Jesus was being not only less than perfect. He was engaged in felony extortion.

Threatening people with death to gain access to their property or cash is in fact extortion. Jesus wouldn't be able to get in the Coast Guard. The US Coast Guard does not accept felony applicants.

Further. There's a lot people walking around with Jesus Holy Spirit after they get baptized. Jesus is with them in the form of the Holy Ghost. So, according to the US federal government John the Baptist translated himself across time and space to baptize Joseph Smith to reestablish the True Christian church. Then comes the Holy Ghost and dwells inside of Smith. The Holy Ghost and Jesus then threatens 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball that she will be destroyed if she leaves the church and her husband, Smith.

So, we have Jesus (aka Holy Ghost) engaged in extortion with Oral Roberts, and child sex trafficking with Helen Mar Kimball and the Mormon Joseph Smith.

Shouldn't we just nail the Holy Ghost to a tree and blow his head off?

originally posted by: Miracula2

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Miracula2

The bible does teach Jesus was perfect
I

Sorry Dis

How can that be true?

It seems to me that Jesus when he threatened Oral Roberts with murder unless Roberts viewers would send Robert's tv evangelist ministry 8 million dollars that Jesus was being not only less than perfect. He was engaged in felony extortion.

Threatening people with death to gain access to their property or cash is in fact extortion. Jesus wouldn't be able to get in the Coast Guard. The US Coast Guard does not accept felony applicants.

Further. There's a lot people walking around with Jesus Holy Spirit after they get baptized. Jesus is with them in the form of the Holy Ghost. So, according to the US federal government John the Baptist translated himself across time and space to baptize Joseph Smith to reestablish the True Christian church. Then comes the Holy Ghost and dwells inside of Smith. The Holy Ghost and Jesus then threatens 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball that she will be destroyed if she leaves the church and her husband, Smith.

So, we have Jesus (aka Holy Ghost) engaged in extortion with Oral Roberts, and child sex trafficking with Helen Mar Kimball and the Mormon Joseph Smith.

Shouldn't we just nail the Holy Ghost to a tree and blow his head off?

Great question and great reply
I cant even conceive a thought into a reply to a person who holds Oral Roberts, Kimble and Joseph Smith up as honest leaders of their faiths, if you choose them as your elders in Christ, best wishes to you...

As for the Spirit, He is their to guide, not control
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. "
Guide, not force or control, its always your choice to follow Oral Roberts, Kimble and Joseph Smith, its also your choice to study and make yourself accountable.

According to the US government? Who are not a spiritual organisation, they can decree what ever they want, not my business.
If it means you accept John the Baptist translated himself across time and space to baptize Joseph Smith to reestablish the True Christian church because the US federal government told you they believe it, awesome, best of luck to you

originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: DISRAELI

I still disagree with you.

This letter was not written to new believes but to the mature who had already knowingly received the Holy Spirit.

To accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit as your guide is to put to death the body of sin and to turn towards love and virtuous living. Accepting Christ is to Know that the Holy Spirit is within you and will indeed guide you away from all deliberate sin.

In my opinion this verse covers all intentional sin. To intentionally sin is to forsake Chrsit in your heart and with your body.

This verse is not merely about believing in Christ as the son of God but about remaining obedient to righteousness and walking down the narrow path which is free from deliberate sin.

It matters not what one claims with their mouths if their hearts are still addicted to willful sin. For those who refuse to repent or who fall back into deliberate sin, the son of God is of no help to them and they should expect judgement.

Especially those who have known the truth then turn away from it. The number who have known the truth is very few in my opinion, and the opportunity to be saved from sin still remains for those who have been lead astray by false teachers.

Romans is a good position to fall back on

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23butI see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!


So if we as humans could defeat sin, why Christ, what value is He to us.
Grace, with works, that arnt really works but the fruit of the Spirit, whole different issue

Yes we will all become perfect, when we are transformed into full relationship with God, through Jesus and His return

originally posted by: RaggedymanAccording to the US government?

The US government plays a major role in salvation.

For instance. I am fairly certain that we are held accountable by God for getting a marriage by a certain time frame.

And the US government in allowing religions to operate which prohibit marriage outside of their own false belief system interferes with that process of arranging a marriage by a certain time frame. And the US government in allowing people like the Mormons to use threats of physical force like abduction in order to maintain control over one's mind and beliefs as the Mormons in Salt Lake City have threatened me, an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard, also interferes with that process of arranging a marriage to a suitable partner by a certain time frame.

a reply to: Miracula2

Ok, well, I don't understand
Christianity and I don't believe Mormons are Christian by my definition, is not political.
I don't understand political Christians to well

I don't believe in Smith, Roberts or their ilk, different theology to mine.
Best of luck in your endeavors, hope you win

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The epistle to the Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians, perhaps to a specific Jewish church.
The message of the letter is that Christ has brought “completeness”.
That is, God is making available, through him, a much greater and more decisive revelation than anything they have received from him previously
This argument comes to a climax in the tenth chapter, where the writer shows that the self-offering of Christ has brought forgiveness of sin.
He has “entered the heavenly sanctuary” on our behalf.

Have you ever considered that you have to give up your self? The self that is separate?
The belief in your self is what makes God hide. Now is what is happening eternally but within that now, stories about you (the separate self) in time happen. Man was made in the image of God.
This that is happening/appearing is the image of God - the son of God - the manifestation of God.
God will be hiding until the belief in a separate you/self dies.
God is hiding in plain sight - in the act of seeing. God is all seeing and all knowing. The son of God is the appearance. It might seem as if God is one 'thing' and Christ is another 'thing' but they are one. Everything appears in the seeing and is made of nothing other than the seeing.

What is happening is not done by any thing separate - what is happening is done. No one is ever doing anything because there isn't anything separate - there is just this that is.

No separate thing (man) will see Gods face and live - because 'you' will be raptured (lifted away)
The separate you/self is an illusion which conflicts with what is true - so there is no peace until the selfing stops. The self centre is like a wick in a candle - and there is no rest for the wicked!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Miracula2

Christianity and I don't believe Mormons are Christian by my definition, is not political.

I didn't say they were Christian. I said that the US government which maintains "under God" in the pledge of Allegiance allow religions to operate which use threats of force to maintain membership.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
That comment appears to have no connection with the topic of this thread. Our topic, as defined by the opening post, is the content of Hebrews ch10.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
The message of the letter is that Christ has brought “completeness”.
That is, God is making available, through him, a much greater and more decisive revelation than anything they have received from him previously

It seems to me that Christ's main goal is to undermine God, not make God available through himself, Jesus.

Case in point.

www.christianitytoday.com...


"The television evangelist links receiving $8 million to the extension of his earthly life."

_______________________________________________________________
This Baptist minister says that Jesus threatened to kill him unless Oral Roberts viewers made an appropriate tithing. That tends to lead people astray to commit sin, when they might have been recruited to the faith. Jesus shouldn't be engaged in extortion against ministers attempting to recruit souls to God and obedience to the 10 Commandments.

Jesus discourages faith. I've even had Christians threaten to abduct me simply for asking polite questions. And these people were partakers of the Holy Spirit.

This pattern of threats from Jesus extends all the way back to Pontius Pilates day. Jesus said "Bring those who don't want me as king and slay them before me".

I don't want Trump for king, but I voted for him for President. Not wanting a king is not death penalty offense. Sedition might be, but Jesus wasn't in charge of the region. Pilate was, and even Pilate was under this threat. Pilate was not in a position to accept a king other than his ruler in Rome. To accept Jesus as king would be sedition on Pilates part towards the Roman authority.

In the Bible book of Romans, Chapter 13:1 : "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established"

This means that every kingdom on earth and its leaders were established by God. Birthright, etc. Jesus was threatening Pilate with death for following scripture. Pilates duty according to scripture was to respect his governing authorities in Rome that put trust in Pilate to govern. Why? Because God established Roman law and authority. And Jesus was attempting to subvert God by saying that anyone who was willing to follow scripture and submit to Roman authority that God established should "slayed before himself (Jesus)"

Jesus is rather inconsistent with scripture.

And this is why Christians should be deported.

originally posted by: Miracula2
And this is why Christians should be deported.

I take that back. I was beginning to lose faith. But some recent events changed that.

I was irritated that the Mormons in Salt Lake City threatened to abduct me simply for asking polite questions about doctrinal problems. And I thought legally in most states you can use lethal force to prevent abduction. So, why isn't the federal government legislating this cult out of existence. I am an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard. A former rescue swimmer in aviation. I deserve respect from cultists, not threats of physical violence for polite questions.

Or on the faith issue, if the Bible says God will fight your battles for you. Then why if I am avoiding fornication, adultery is a Higher Power not dealing with this.

And right after I congratulated China on killing cultists and harvesting their organs who had killed a non-cult member at a fast food joint by saying "Let the organ harvesting begin". The very next day a member of a cult who threatened to abduct me gets his organs harvested in the London attacks.

God does fight your battles for you. I was wrong. My faith is restored!