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an interesting question!!

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posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 12:36 PM
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i was wondering is it possible for countries that imports weapons to dismantle them and see how they're build and build the same weapon by themselves???

for example if a country bought a missile from the US . could it study it(the missile) and be able to build exact replicas ??




posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 02:58 PM
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Yes, many countries do this
China is definatly one I believe



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by straylight
i was wondering is it possible for countries that imports weapons to dismantle them and see how they're build and build the same weapon by themselves???

for example if a country bought a missile from the US . could it study it(the missile) and be able to build exact replicas ??


Yes, it is possible. For example, Russia completely reverse engineered a B-29 that they "acquired" during WWII. However, most countries lack the industrial capabilites to replicate these (very advanced military) items even if they know exactly how they work.

This is why there are export controls on things related to defense. In many cases it's not that the US is worried about, for example, India having 1 Aegis destroyer - rather that they could figure out how they work in order to find their weaknesses or replicate them in large numbers.

[edit on 1-2-2005 by Starwars51]



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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THere was an incident about 10 years ago (I think) where a US plane crashed in chinese waters. The US almost had a military action on the base that held the captured plane, because China wouldnt give it back, and they were stripping it for US technologies..



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 04:16 PM
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that was only 4 years ago.

archives.cnn.com...

How quickly we forget



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 05:12 PM
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Yes, it is called "reverse engineering" and it's very much used in the current worldwide economy. While for commercial products you have to be careful on how precisely you copy (ever heard of copyright infrigment)?, military weapons not slated for foreign sale can be exact copies. I have a number of examples in mind: the Soviet Tupolev Tu4 (Bull) was an exact copy of the US Boeing B29A. They used planes that put down in the Far East Russia as samples. The Rolls-Royce Nene engine was copied by the Klimov bureau and used to power the outstanding MIG-15 fighter. In late XIX century, Afghan workshops made exact copies of British Martini-Henry rifles, smuggled from India on purpose. The Chinese Red Arrow anti-tank missile is rumoured to be a copy of first-generation US TOW missiles, obtained either from Iran or Israel. The German MP3008 submachine gun was an exact copy of the British STEN which, ironically, was a simplified and refined version of the German MP18 submachine gun. Of course, sometimes the industry of the "cloning" country is unable to reverse engineer a weapon system. A classic case: the famous Israeli-France accident. Israel was trying to clone the Dassault Mirage IIIs they purchased form France, but were unable to build the sophisticated SNECMA-Atar engine from their samples. So they decided to steal the original blueprints. They got caught and had to give up. But they managed to clone the Mirage airframe and they put a Pratt & Whitney engine in it, giving birth to the Nesher fighter... I could go on forever. Nowaday, most products, either commercial or miliatry, are built to anti-clone standard. Right now it's mainly focused on building complicated and sophisticated parts on purpose, or writng down self-destructing software, but the new F35 will feature some improvements in thsi field.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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How do you think U.S. created new fighters that overtook Japanese fighters during WW2.

I think the agency responsible for finding about the Japanese fighters was called TIA, a little history note for you.

Surf



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by surfup
How do you think U.S. created new fighters that overtook Japanese fighters during WW2.

I think the agency responsible for finding about the Japanese fighters was called TIA, a little history note for you.

Surf


The US did have extremly poor intel on the Japanese fighters, and did take copies in an attempt to determine their capabilities/weaknesses - but they did not copy them (or for that matter even use any features found on them).

That was more of a case of classic espionage than cloning because you don't have the technology to do it yourself.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by surfup
How do you think U.S. created new fighters that overtook Japanese fighters during WW2.

I think the agency responsible for finding about the Japanese fighters was called TIA, a little history note for you.

Surf

The Grumman F6F Hellcat, one of the aircrafts that turned the tide of the air war, was simply a development of the Grumman family of fighters already in service at the beginning of the war, especially the F4F Wildcat, which was not an outstanding fighter, but more than capable to hold its own in fair fight. The Lockheed P38 Lightning, another one of the important fighters, first flown in 1939, but the basic layout dates to 1937. The North American P51 Mustang, first flew in 1940 (called the NA-73X), but became an outstanding fighter only when mated to the British Rolls-Royce Merlin engine in late 1942. The Republic P47 Thunderbolt was also the development of a pre-war designs (the Seversky P35 and the Republic P43 Lancer). Finally, the Vought F4U Corsair was also a pre-war design, since it first flew in 1938. All in all, the US had excellent fighter designs at hand before the beginning of the war, but these needed to be ironed out and adapted to combat reports coming from Europe and Asia. In the meanwhile, inferior and outdated designs, like the Curtis P40 Warhawk/Kittyhawk and the Brewster F2A Buffalo had to do.
Source: David Mondey "American Aircraft of World War II" (London: Chancellor Press, 1996)



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 07:42 PM
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One of the things that helped the U.S. to turn the tide of the Pacific air war was when they captured a Zero nearly intact in the Aleutians.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
One of the things that helped the U.S. to turn the tide of the Pacific air war was when they captured a Zero nearly intact in the Aleutians.


Unlikely, by 1942 the Zero was already outdated and 6 months later would be totally outclassed. The Japanese didn't contribute a thing to US aircraft design in WW2.

As for reverse engineering, sure many things could be copied. However the more high tech something is the harder it is to build. A country maybe able to take apart a system, but actually being able to reproduce the technology would be somewhat harder. Whole new industries may have to be started just to produce one component. One example would be using nano technology to build advanced seeker heads for missiles.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 08:56 PM
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The Hellcat was designed with the zero in mind


One A6M2 made an emergency landing in an island in the Aleutians after the raid against Dutch Harbor in June of 1942. The pilot was killed but the almost intact plane was recovered by the Americans and repaired. It gave precious indications on the strong and weak points of the Zero, so that better planes could be opposed. The Hellcat was one of the plane that drew from that intelligence.

users.belgacom.net...

Also


The first production version of the Zero was the A6M2 Model 11, of 1940. This had a Nakajima Sakae 12 engine, a 14-cylinder air cooled radial that developed 950 hp. at 13,800 ft. The similar Model 21 had folding wing tips for aircraft carrier use. This was the model on board the Japanese carriers at the beginning of the Pacific War on December 7, 1941. It was also the model captured almost undamaged in the Aleutians in 1942, and examined in detail by American engineers.




The Zero suffered another heavy blow when the Allies captured a Zero nearly intact. On 4 June 1942 an A6M2 flown by Flight Petty Officer 1st Class Tadayoshi Koga from the carrier Ryujo took part in a raid on Dutch Harbor, in the Aleutians Islands. Koga's aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire, forcing him to crash land on Akutan Island. The plane was captured by the U.S. and shipped to the States. There a number of pilots tested the Zeke's performance and engaged in mock dogfights with American aircraft.

The secrets of Japan's miracle fighter were quickly discovered. The information collected was forwarded to pilots on the front. The sun was setting on the Zero's reign. Unfortunately, in the summer of 1944 a Curtiss SB2C Helldiver taxied into Koga's Zero, chopping it up with its giant four-blade propeller.



www.chuckhawks.com...



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by HowardRoark
The Hellcat was designed with the zero in mind



There is a huge difference in designing an aircraft to combat a particular threat and copying an aircraft.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 09:25 PM
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The United States engineered its own aircraft in WWII. America doesn't build some of the world's best fighter planes from nothing.

But the U.S. DID copy directly that one German cruise missile, because it's design was so much simpler than the American counterpart, yet the missile could travel a further range. It was perfect, easy to reverse-engineer, and thus easy to pump out lots of 'em. Only these ones had the U.S. flag on them, even though the design originally was German.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Starwars51

There is a huge difference in designing an aircraft to combat a particular threat and copying an aircraft.


I never said that they did.

The point is, the U.S. were able to study the Zero and learned how to counteract it.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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Russian AK 47 (Avtomat Kalashnikova model 1947) - (dad has that)
en.wikipedia.org...
This assault rifle (semi automatic, converts to Machine Gun) .....
the improtant part:

Influence

The AK-47 and its derivatives are favoured by some non-Western powers because of their ease of use, robustness, and simplicity to manufacture, and also because during the Cold War the Russians were giving AKM rifles away in great numbers to their allies all over the Third World. Copies were made by many factories in other countries including USA, Finland (though the Finnish rifles are sufficiently different that many experts consider them AK-inspired but not pure AK), Hungary, China, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Egypt and Pakistan, where they remain in production today. Derivative designs were made in USA, East Germany, Finland, Hungary, Israel, North Korea, Poland, and Yugoslavia. Estimates of total number of units produced vary from 55 million to 100 million.

Copies, licensed and otherwise, manufactured in other countries had different nomenclature, and tended to differ from the original in small ways - Bulgarian AK-47 type rifles are made with the old milled receiver rather than stampings, Chinese 'Type 1956' rifles have the gas tube attached to the barrel in a slightly different arrangement and a permanently attached folding cruciform spike bayonet under the muzzle, the East German MPiK-47 rifles had buttstocks and handguards of pebble-finished black plastic instead of wood, etc. Copies may or may not have the slant-cut muzzle brake of the AKM. Further, end users may have modified their rifles. For instance, AKMs and close copies thereof made in Russia and various Warsaw Pact countries and given to the government of India as military aid during the Cold War have since 1995 mostly been fitted with flash suppressors that are copies of the one on the M16A2 rifle and bayonet lugs compatible with US-issue bayonets for the M16 rifle.

Copies of the AK-47 are also manufactured in Dara Adamkhel in tribal areas of Pakistan. It became so popular in Pakistan that it has become a social symbol for the Pathan tribesmen who live there. Owning an AK-47 (or a copy made by a local gunsmith) is considered to be proof of manhood.
There are some things that are sooo classic, they get copied like crazy.



posted on Feb, 1 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by Starwars51
The US did have extremly poor intel on the Japanese fighters, and did take copies in an attempt to determine their capabilities/weaknesses - but they did not copy them (or for that matter even use any features found on them)
That was more of a case of classic espionage than cloning because you don't have the technology to do it yourself.


Sorry of my lack of clarity. I meant that U.S. found a zero somewhere near the islands with the plane in almost perfect condition and used it to study. In fact they were even able to fly the plane. They never copied from thep plane, but they used the plane to create better ones.

Surf

[edit on 2/1/2005 by surfup]



posted on Feb, 2 2005 @ 04:13 AM
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About the AK47: it has been often rumored that it's nothing more than a copy of the German Walther MP43/44 (the Sturmgewehr). Mechanically speaking, it's almost identical and even the standard bullet seems to be an improved derivative of the German 7,92mm "Kurz" ammo. The Russians, of course, never openly confirmed or denied that... it would be interesting to know more. It's ironical that some derivatives of the original AK47 are considered better products than the original, among all the Finnish Valmet automatic rifles. When the Israelis decided to clone the AK47, one of the first things they did was to get a hold of some Valmet rifles, despite having litterally thousands of captured AK47s and copies readily at hand. The resulting work is the Galil/Glilon weapon family.
Source: David Ezell "Small Arms of the World" (Mechanicsburg, Pa.: Stackpole Books, 1988)



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 01:00 PM
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To answere the question to it's fullness, I will take you on a little trip.

About 15 - 20 years ago, an ethnic Russian fighter pilot decided to defect.

Nothing wrong with that! It was what he defected in that caused all the bother.

He calmly [and with mailice aforethought] flew a highjacked MiG 25 Foxbat in to Japan and landed, I think, at Tokyo international airport.

The Russians were absolutely crapping themselves, I kid you not. For those of you who do not know, the MiG 25 Foxbat was the only Russian fighter capable of intercepting U2's [as flown by Austin Gary Powers] and more probably the SR71 Blackbirds that replaced them.

Up until the moment the yanks acquired the avionics pack from the Foxbat and got their hands on the real deal, they simply refused to believe that anybody had the technology to intercept their spyplanes.

Imagine the shock when Powers was shot down! Oh yes! Don't believe all the crap about him being shot down by SAM 2's! No way have they got the range. Powers was flying way above SAM missile screen range.

No, my friends, he was shot down by a MiG 25 Foxbat - an aircraft with a ceilling almost equal to the BA Lightning [whose ceilling IS STILL on top secret list]

Long boring story coming to an end. Russia threatened all sorts of nasty stuff, cold war went very, very hot for a few months before Japan released the MiG 25 back to Russia.

It may also be of interest to you that the development of the A-10 Thunderbolt II was the direct result of OSNAZ [KGB SF] breaking into an office in the Pentagon and stealing the original blueprints.

Result? One really nasty little aircraft that saw extensive action in Afghanistan. The Su-27A Frogfoot.



posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by fritz
Imagine the shock when Powers was shot down! Oh yes! Don't believe all the crap about him being shot down by SAM 2's! No way have they got the range. Powers was flying way above SAM missile screen range.

No, my friends, he was shot down by a MiG 25 Foxbat - an aircraft with a ceilling almost equal to the BA Lightning [whose ceilling IS STILL on top secret list]

Long boring story coming to an end. Russia threatened all sorts of nasty stuff, cold war went very, very hot for a few months before Japan released the MiG 25 back to Russia.

Francis Gary Powers was shot down on May 1st, 1960... the first Mig-25 entered service in 1966.

So are you trying to tell us that the Mig-25 has been around since 1960 - or was your typo that named Francis Gary Powers the U2 pilot, "Austin Gary Powers" an indication that you are in some way joking?

There is no way a Foxbat would have downed Power's U-2 in 1960.



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