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Wire Tap claim...timing...Exec Order 13489...could this be it?

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posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:33 AM
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Ok....so I put this thread here because I am sure there will be a lot of back and forth and whatnot simply because it is a hot topic right now.

Anywho...on to the point.

In an earlier thread, EO13489 was pointed out as where Obama sealed his records for good in regards to birth certificate, transcripts from school, etc...

So I had not really read a lot about this particular EO. I decided to take a gander. Now this particular EO is pretty expansive as far as covering all Presidential Records based on the Presidential Records Act. I had no idea just how deep the Presidential Records went though...

Presidential Records


The term "Presidential records" means documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President’s immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President. Such term--

(A) includes any documentary materials relating to the political activities of the President or members of the President’s staff, but only if such activities relate to or have a direct effect upon the carrying out of constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President; but

(B) does not include any documentary materials that are

(i) official records of an agency (as defined in section 552(e) of title 5, United States Code; (ii) personal records; (iii) stocks of publications and stationery; or (iv) extra copies of documents produced only for convenience of reference, when such copies are clearly so identified.


So Presidential Records include the records of almost every subordinate in the administration.

Now EO13489 basically seals these to all but the incumbent President and only when the incumbent requests them. The Archivist then has to go through a process which can be elongated by a certain number of days by the former President, but which must be still released to the incumbent at the end of the number of days required.

EO13489

Now this EO was written by Obama and coincidentally there is a very specific number of days written into the PRA as to how long the incumbent President has to wait to get the records. It is exactly 60 days. Now the number of days between the Inauguration (when Trump became President) and March 20 is exactly 60 days.

So I am wondering if there is indeed something BIG that is going to come out on March 20th. My main reason for wondering this is because of the push to wait until then from Spicer.

Now sure, Trump has full authority to continue the press to release information, but it could be that he didn't need Obama to find it. His team is smart and had they known someone in the administration who did not have the Presidential Records Act extended to their position but was part of any type of surveillance then I would think they already secured the docs from that person and had filed for the records of Obama to be released, which would be from the date of taking office to March 20, 60 days.

Anywho...just my mind working over time on the timing and strangeness with which all of this is happening.



+2 more 
posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:37 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Now that Obama has Lost the Power and Protection of the Presidency , the TRUTH about this Man Will Finally Come to Light , and the Reality of that Truth will more than Likely Shake the Very Foundations of Washington Politics...Stay Tuned.....



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:38 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe




In an earlier thread, EO13489 was pointed out as where Obama sealed his records for good in regards to birth certificate, transcripts from school, etc

Those records are protected by laws and have been since before Obama took office. Yours are protected. Mine are protected.

Executive Orders are not laws and those are not Presidential Records.

(c) ''Presidential Records Act'' refers to the Presidential Records Act, 44 U.S.C. 2201-2207. (d) ''NARA regulations'' refers to the NARA regulations implementing the Presidential Records Act, 36 C.F.R. Part 1270. (e) ''Presidential records'' refers to those documentary materials maintained by NARA pursuant to the Presidential Records Act, including Vice Presidential records.

www.archives.gov...


(2) The term "Presidential records" means documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President’s immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.

www.archives.gov...

edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)


+11 more 
posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: Phage



Yours are protected. Mine are protected.



And you believe that?



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:41 AM
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a reply to: thesaneone

Yes.
They are protected just as much those of the president are.


edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:43 AM
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originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: Phage



Yours are protected. Mine are protected.



And you believe that?


Phage just calls balls and strikes.

He not on any side...



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 12:44 AM
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Because the best way to hide stuff and be inconspicuous is via executive orders which are available for the public to view... because no one since then were inquisitive , even though it was a 'right' majority when this EO would have been passed...

Your mind is not working overtime at all i think.



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:01 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Vasa Croe




In an earlier thread, EO13489 was pointed out as where Obama sealed his records for good in regards to birth certificate, transcripts from school, etc

Those records are protected by laws and have been since before Obama took office. Yours are protected. Mine are protected.

Executive Orders are not laws and those are not Presidential Records.

(c) ''Presidential Records Act'' refers to the Presidential Records Act, 44 U.S.C. 2201-2207. (d) ''NARA regulations'' refers to the NARA regulations implementing the Presidential Records Act, 36 C.F.R. Part 1270. (e) ''Presidential records'' refers to those documentary materials maintained by NARA pursuant to the Presidential Records Act, including Vice Presidential records.

www.archives.gov...


(2) The term "Presidential records" means documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President’s immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.

www.archives.gov...


I wasn't questioning that...it was simply the reason I looked at the EO.

My thread is on the timing of the hearing on March 20th being exactly 60 days from the inauguration and that being the number of days being needed by the current Potus to have records released regardless of privilege.

Now this EO leaves out a very key factor in the 60 day period and actually shortens it by whatever term deemed by the acting President, but specifically states that the records will be disclosed within 30 days of notification unless privilege is invoked.

Now here is where is gets funky. The incumbent can override this privilege and the maximum default to disclose the requested material is 30 days, unless a shorter time period is requested, and this includes notification of the records being released to both former and incumbent.

So we have the 60 days as laid out in the PRA which is not to include weekends or holidays, but this EO cuts that out.

If these records do exist it would seem Obama shot himself in the foot with this EO, and it would also make it clear that Trump has a very clever team.



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:07 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

I wasn't questioning that...it was simply the reason I looked at the EO.
Could have fooled me when you said this:

EO13489 was pointed out as where Obama sealed his records for good in regards to birth certificate, transcripts from school, etc


Do you understand that the EO did not do that?

 



My thread is on the timing of the hearing on March 20th being exactly 60 days from the inauguration and that being the number of days being needed by the current Potus to have records released regardless of privilege.
Um, no. Trump has accused Obama of a criminal act. But maybe you should have read the EO.



§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access

Notwithstanding any restrictions on access imposed pursuant to sections 2204 and 2208--

(1) the Archivist and persons employed by the National Archives and Records Administration who are engaged in the performance of normal archival work shall be permitted access to Presidential records in the custody of the Archivist;

(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(A) pursuant to subpoena or other judicial process issued by a court of competent jurisdiction for the purposes of any civil or criminal investigation or proceeding;

(B) to an incumbent President if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and that is not otherwise available; and

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and

(3) the Presidential records of a former President shall be available to such former President or the former President’s designated representative.


edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:08 AM
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originally posted by: odzeandennz
Because the best way to hide stuff and be inconspicuous is via executive orders which are available for the public to view... because no one since then were inquisitive , even though it was a 'right' majority when this EO would have been passed...

Your mind is not working overtime at all i think.


Seriously?

Do you read?

The EO covers Presidential Records, which are not public based on Executive Privilege.

I don't really expect you to get that though....keep up the great responses...
I am not really sure how your internal mind gymnastics could begin to think I thought EO's were private, but hey...Maddow still has a job so....



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:12 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

" If these records do exist it would seem Obama shot himself in the foot with this EO, and it would also make it clear that Trump has a very clever team. "


You just Know Steve Bannon is Licking his Chops over that Possibility , Information Is The Real Power......



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:16 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Vasa Croe

I wasn't questioning that...it was simply the reason I looked at the EO.
Could have fooled me when you said this:

EO13489 was pointed out as where Obama sealed his records for good in regards to birth certificate, transcripts from school, etc


Do you understand that the EO did not do that?

 



My thread is on the timing of the hearing on March 20th being exactly 60 days from the inauguration and that being the number of days being needed by the current Potus to have records released regardless of privilege.
Um, no. Trump has accused Obama of a criminal act. The EO has no say in such an investigation. But maybe you should have read it.



§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access

Notwithstanding any restrictions on access imposed pursuant to sections 2204 and 2208--

(1) the Archivist and persons employed by the National Archives and Records Administration who are engaged in the performance of normal archival work shall be permitted access to Presidential records in the custody of the Archivist;

(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(A) pursuant to subpoena or other judicial process issued by a court of competent jurisdiction for the purposes of any civil or criminal investigation or proceeding;

(B) to an incumbent President if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and that is not otherwise available; and

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and

(3) the Presidential records of a former President shall be available to such former President or the former President’s designated representative.


Funny...i never would have taken you for one to selectively quote...

You forgot the "in an earlier thread part".

That earlier thread was simply the reason I even looked at the EO.

Try to keep up...the 60 days is in reference to the PRA which states 60 days not including weekends and holidays. The EO changes those 60 days for the records to be available to the first 30 after being requested and if privilege is invoked the incumbent can reverse privilege and deem whatever term they feel like, but the archivist still has to notify both incumbent and former 30 days prior to release. However the catch is that the 30 day time periods are not specifically noted to not include weekends or holidays...

I can't quote it all right now as I'm on my phone and that's just a pain, but will make sure to tomorrow.
edit on 3/15/17 by Vasa Croe because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:18 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


Try to keep up
It is you should should do so, apparently.


(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and


No time limit. If Congress wants it, Congress gets it. As it should be.


From your OP:

Now EO13489 basically seals these to all but the incumbent President and only when the incumbent requests them.
False.

edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:30 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Vasa Croe


Try to keep up
It is you should should do so, apparently.


(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and


No time limit. If Congress wants it, Congress gets it. As it should be.


From your OP:

Now EO13489 basically seals these to all but the incumbent President and only when the incumbent requests them.
False.


Seriously?




§ 2204. Restrictions on access to Presidential records

(a) Prior to the conclusion of a President’s term of office or last consecutive term of office, as the case may be, the President shall specify durations, not to exceed 12 years, for which access shall be restricted with respect to information, in a Presidential record, within one or more of the following categories:

(1)(A) specifically authorized under criteria established by an Executive order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy and

(B) in fact properly classified pursuant to such Executive order;


(2) relating to appointments to Federal office;

(3) specifically exempted from disclosure by statute (other than sections 552 and 552b of title 5, United States Code), provided that such statute

(A) requires that the material be withheld from the public in such a manner as to leave no discretion on the issue, or

(B) establishes particular criteria for withholding or refers to particular types of material to be withheld;

(4) trade secrets and commercial or financial information obtained from a person and privileged or confidential;

(5) confidential communications requesting or submitting advice, between the President and the President’s advisers, or between such advisers ; or

(6) personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.


Congress can want in one hand and $hit in the other all day long...i know which one would fill up first based on the EO.
edit on 3/15/17 by Vasa Croe because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:32 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe

Seriously?
So, you didn't actually read it. Yes. Seriously. Here you go, one more time...



§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access

Notwithstanding any restrictions on access imposed pursuant to sections 2204 and 2208--

(1) the Archivist and persons employed by the National Archives and Records Administration who are engaged in the performance of normal archival work shall be permitted access to Presidential records in the custody of the Archivist;

(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(A) pursuant to subpoena or other judicial process issued by a court of competent jurisdiction for the purposes of any civil or criminal investigation or proceeding;

(B) to an incumbent President if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and that is not otherwise available; and

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and

(3) the Presidential records of a former President shall be available to such former President or the former President’s designated representative.


You quoted section 2204, did you not?



Congress can want in one hand and $hit in the other all day long...i know which one would fill up first based on the EO.
Has Congress not demanded evidence from the president to support his accusation? Of course, he hasn't complied, as yet. The DOJ is scrambling, desperately, to find something, anything to show that the president pull that accusation out of someplace where the sun don't shine. Why not just go to the Obama's Presidential Records? Easy peasy.

edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:38 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Vasa Croe

Seriously?
So, you didn't actually read it. Yes. Seriously. Here you go, one more time...



§ 2205. Exceptions to restricted access

Notwithstanding any restrictions on access imposed pursuant to sections 2204 and 2208--

(1) the Archivist and persons employed by the National Archives and Records Administration who are engaged in the performance of normal archival work shall be permitted access to Presidential records in the custody of the Archivist;

(2) subject to any rights, defenses, or privileges which the United States or any agency or person may invoke, Presidential records shall be made available--

(A) pursuant to subpoena or other judicial process issued by a court of competent jurisdiction for the purposes of any civil or criminal investigation or proceeding;

(B) to an incumbent President if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and that is not otherwise available; and

(C) to either House of Congress, or, to the extent of matter within its jurisdiction, to any committee or subcommittee thereof if such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of its business and that is not otherwise available; and

(3) the Presidential records of a former President shall be available to such former President or the former President’s designated representative.


You quoted section 2204, did you not?



Yes I did...section 2204 are the restrictions that can be imposed by an Executive Order...like the one Obama made...you know...the one at the start of this thread.

That's why I bolded the parts that were pertinent to the thread....Executive Orders and confidential communications being key here.

His own EO allowing a change of circumstance in the release of confidential communications is what I am pointing out.



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:39 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


section 2204 are the restrictions that can be imposed by an Executive Order
So, you still didn't read Section 2205. Got it. But I thought you said the time limit thing was important.



His own EO allowing a change of circumstance in the release of confidential communications is what I am pointing out.
And you assume that Obama has something to hide? Why? Because Trump said so? Why is the DOJ scrambling to find evidence? "Time, more time! We don't know why the hell he said that!"


edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:44 AM
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a reply to: Phage

"Has Congress not demanded evidence from the president to support his accusation? Of course, he hasn't complied, as yet. "

Wow...taking a minute to catch up. Yes that is exactly what I am talking about. Timelines here. The EO allowed for a shorter timeline because it did not include the weekend and holiday clause that the PRA includes.

Trump could have accessed something, not covered by the PRA that gave him the knowledge of a communication about surveillance prior to coming on. He then could have requested permission to view from the archivist, had to wait 30 days for Obama to respond as he would want to take as much time as possible.

Obama requests privilege to which Trump says no and sets his own timeline of 1 day. The archivist is then forced to release the docs requested on exactly March 20 because of the EO Obama made.



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:47 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


The EO allowed for a shorter timeline because it did not include the weekend and holiday clause that the PRA includes.
*sigh*




Notwithstanding any restrictions on access imposed pursuant to sections 2204 and 2208--


Congress has access to any Presidential Records it wants. Whenever it wants. If Trump can't come up with something Congress can. That would not help Trump's standing though, would it. Trump can access the Presidential Records right now. He could have done it a week ago. Your point is pointless.


edit on 3/15/2017 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 15 2017 @ 01:49 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Vasa Croe


section 2204 are the restrictions that can be imposed by an Executive Order
So, you still didn't read Section 2205. Got it. But I thought you said the time limit thing was important.



His own EO allowing a change of circumstance in the release of confidential communications is what I am pointing out.
And you assume that Obama has something to hide? Why? Because Trump said so? Why is the DOJ scrambling to find evidence? "Time, more time! We don't know why the hell he said that!"



Yes I have read it over and over at this point because typically Phage posts are correct. Oddly this time you are not. 2205 states that all of those things occur except in the restrictions access imposed by 2204.

This means that whatever EO trumps 2205 and confidential communications can't be accessed by anyone in 2205 .

Asking for time would be exactly why the date is odd to me.



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