Animal vs. Plant Protein

originally posted by: zardust
a reply to: Scorpiogurl

My point about B 12 was that you cannot get it naturally therefore that's not a diet that our genome is adapted to or in other words one that is not ideal. You cannot get adequate amounts of B 12 from plant sources except fortified plant sources, which again is not natural. a person being a strict vegan before vitamin fortification of foods was at major risk for the problems associated with B 12 deficiency.

That goes along with the fish oil bit. Just because the oceans are polluted doesn't mean we don't need the fish oil. We need to stop polluting the oceans or figure out a way to get the fish oil with you can you can purify fish oil. Of course this is not natural but our genome is adapted to eating fish (oil)and needing it, more than needing it but that every single cell in our body is made up of fish (EPA/DHA)and they are called essential fatty acids because it cannot be made by anything else.

I understand your philosophical objections to eating animals, but the point of this thread was not philosophical objections but scientific reasoning. I'm just responding that there are some issues with the scientific basis of a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Totally agree! Years ago I did a 30 day Vegan challenge and I didn't supplement with B12 or with Iron and by the end of the challenge I was anemic. It was awful! I am intolerant to B vitamins. More than the trace amounts I get from the food that I eat and I get a variety of adverse reactions.

Scientifically, any nutrition plan is great so long as we're meeting our nutritional requirements. I've followed a vegan CRON plan for years. That's 'Calorie Restrict with Optimal Nutrition'. In other words, the amount of calories is not important (unless you're trying to lose weight), it's the quality that counts. A person can live and be healthy on a very small amount of calories assuming those calories are nutrient dense and perfectly balanced.

a reply to: zardust

Sublingual pill or a painless injection into the belly fat can give you enough b12 for 3 years. It's stored in a liver and it's still the same chemical. The fact that it's not natural means nothing. It has nothing in common with a genom or evolution.

You know what is "natural"? Herbivores eating their feces. B12 is produced by bacteria in the large intestine, but since it's below the ileum (where B12 is absorbed), to obtain B12 and some other stuff they get craving for poop. That's where all B12 comes from. I'm not sure about fish but they eat each other whole so it's probably the same source.

To all those that enquired. My Testosterone levels are high. My blood pressure and resting heart rate are at a healthy level. I never drink beer, only wine and occasionally cider. I do not have any allergies that effect my diet, although I developed one to animal hair before I turned vegetarian, I could not say if this was down to the shots in the military, but it wasn't there before. I do not have arthritis or any other joint or muscle pain issues, although when my left knee aches I know it is going to rain. I have high energy levels and my mood is generally positive.

I an not an office worker and physical aspects are a part of my work. I regularly split logs and I try to grow as much of my own food as possible. I am in the process of cutting grains and refined sugar from my diet.

I admit the Paleolithic diet does interest me and it is something I intend to work towards. One thought that occurs to me about it is that when the paleo diet was the only one life expectancies were very low and few lived long enought to develop many ofthe conditions we see in the later part of our lives. Until we have the results of the effect of fifty years and upwards of the paleo diet on the human body, it seems to me that we cannot be certain. As I said I remain open minded regarding this diet.

a reply to: Scorpiogurl

Thank you for posting such interesting scientific information as I am kicking the idea around of returning to a more plant-based diet with B12/Iron supplements, but I am finding it difficult to transition - maybe I should transition very slowly and not quickly? Am I truly a conscious eater - can I become one?

Also, I am researching the nature and quality of our foods (veggies) as pertaining to being almost entirely GMO now and what that means nutritionally.

Also, the Mark's Daily Apple site is also a treasure trove of much-needed help, such as how to retrain your taste buds, or not to give up salt entirely as it does have health benefits ...

The overall findings are important in that they indicate the inevitability of taste acclimatization, but they also demonstrate just how long this adjustment can take. Researchers found that the low-sugar group took on average two months for their tastebuds to recognize any difference in sweetness and pleasantness—and yet another month for that sweetness to intensify. The takeaway here? A little patience will yield long-term dividends.

While the health and scientific community continues to hate on salt, very few studies have examined the importance of salt for maintaining a healthy body. While these studies may be relatively few, evidence suggests that salt may play an essential role in excreting cortisol (the “stress hormone”) from the body, thereby improving recovery time from stressful events and situations. Possibly an important one to remember, when the in-laws descend for holiday dinner. Salt has also been shown to decrease strain during exercise by increasing hydration. Studies indicate that knocking back a sodium-rich beverage prior to exercising increases plasma volume, which in turn reduces the strain on your body during exercise and helps you reach higher levels of performance.

Beyond the physical adaptations that come over time, we can appreciate the power of attention (as well as quiet) in sensory experience. Do we blunt or confuse our senses by multitasking or watching the nightly news while we eat? Or do we bring our full consciousness to the meal? Research into eating awareness shows that mindful practices might be powerful enough to help resolve even chronic disordered eating. Knowing that, what can it promise us as we make the transition to taste sensitization and a healthier relationship with food?

www.marksdailyapple.com...

a reply to: PapagiorgioCZ

Yes it has everything to do with our genome. The ability to supplement B12 is an extremely new ability to our species. One that would have been impossible just 100 years ago or so. I'm not talking about the form of B12 you get, though that is another topic that we could discuss. I'm talking about the actual genetic effects of not eating animal flesh. We are Omnivores who's entire genome, and micro biome has developed over thousands of years (millions maybe? as the dates get pushed back for Homo Sapiens). Just because we can supplement with B12 doesn't mean that there aren't other effects that we don't know about yet. Like the whole Fish Oil thing, which again we can supplement but what else? Our bodies are meant to live off of the life of there animals (and plants). Its like saying we should just supplement with Vitamin D and stay out of the sun (you know the supposed cancerous effects). Its not like our entire neuro-physiology is dependent on endogenous Vitamin D being created from Sun exposure, we could just supplement, but we would also miss out on xyz which we don't even know yet. One thing being how sunlight effects melatonin production and regulation through the pupils.

Or its just like the difference between grass fed, pastured beef and feed lot grain fed beef. One creates a healthy meat the other an unhealthy. Cows aren't adapted properly to eating grain. They chew the cud, they have four stomachs for their digestion of grasses. They can still eat grain, but with negative outcomes.

a reply to: zardust

Even cattle is supplemented with b12. I see nothing wrong with that. They could only get enough b12 grazing on the grass in the open air while ingesting bits of dirt (soil) with b12 producing bacteria. So eating their own crap won't help them either when they are fed by todays standards.
Btw I've done a little research and found out that people in rural area rather don't develop a deficiency thanks to lower hygiene. People in the past didn't suffer deficiency no matter what their diet was. It's in a dirt. Why do you think that everyone was eating meat some 200 years ago? It was rather reserved for feasts and for the rich. If you or the cattle can't ingest
it from your dirty fingers or vegetables you need to supplement it. Eating animal products is just another kind of supplementation. Animals don't produce it more than you do. Their b12 is not better than a methylcobalamin pill with this bacteria-processed cobalt. Anyway, this argument is useless in terms of OP - which is about proteins.