NY officials to scrap literacy test for teachers because "Blacks and Hispanics couldnt pass".

I don't think anyone posted the most laughable aspect of this.

The educational system responsible for teaching potential teachers failed at its ability to teach they to read and write.

Think about this. The system that is so great, so balanced, so perfect in its ability to house children for the majority of their first 18 years isn't good enough at "teaching" to make future teachers.

"Our training program keeps you here for 12 years."
"great, what can you do with the training?"
"what, once you graduate, well you can't work here you won't be smart enough..."

There we go...the liberal way. If you can't hold a job...no problem. If you can't support yourself...no problem. So you steal from Walmart...that's fine. Maybe you're a stupid idiot...teach us.

If the left sinks the bar any lower, we will be electing sea cucumbers President next.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
There we go...the liberal way. If you can't hold a job...no problem. If you can't support yourself...no problem. So you steal from Walmart...that's fine. Maybe you're a stupid idiot...teach us.

If the left sinks the bar any lower, we will be electing sea cucumbers President next.

You might win the prize for the most un-informed post of the thread?

Obviously reading beyond the OP headline proved too great a challenge for you?

A+ For political troll verbiage!
F for reading comprehension!

originally posted by: crankyoldman
I don't think anyone posted the most laughable aspect of this.

The educational system responsible for teaching potential teachers failed at its ability to teach they to read and write.

Too many people here are racing for the lazy ideological rhetoric of teachers suck! Our education system sucks!

Without actually examining the topic.

This test that purported to screen teachers entering the education program...sucked...and a lot of those "tests" do.

Honestly...Why should someone be required to deeply opine on the nuances of Gertrude Stein's life in order to be qualified to teach??

I found a sample question from this test online...Give it a try..

www.ccny.cuny.edu...

a reply to: Indigo5


The one thing I can say beyond certainty: our teachers are just like us. They don't suck. Some do, most don't. Most do their job dutifully, cutting corners where they can. Some are highly ethical, many are various shades of neurotic, just like the rest of humanity.

But teaching is their job, and I'd bet their experience has given them quite a toolkit to use. One that none of us currently have, since we don't carry their experience.

I think standardization is the first mistake. Humans are individual, not standard. You cannot test individuals in a standard manner. How individualized testing would look in this case, i can't tell you. But I suspect it has very little to do with filling in bubbles on paper.

Our Federal Government has a fetish with creating a notion of standardization. They aim for the middle in everything, right down to how they design military equipment (trying to equip the average person). Their involvement in education can only bring this notion of standardization to bear on our children.

Clinton passed the Patients Bill Of Health, which required individualized treatment plans for people based on their individual needs as individual people. Im hopeful that one day we will allow this logic to percolate into education.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Indigo5


I think standardization is the first mistake. Humans are individual, not standard.

Absolutely...Companies getting millions of dollars to create standards and tests...where virtually nobody at those companies creating the standards and tests have ever spent a single day in the classroom.

Now-days teachers race through standardized "lesson plans" with every minute timed out and if they slow down to make sure the kids are getting it or are asking interesting and engaged questions? They fall behind on schedule and test day is X number of days away!!

Standardized tests rob teachers of applying their instincts...Teachers who see a classroom full of blank stares during a lecture know that if they take 30 minutes to go off-standardized-script and make sure the kids are actually learning...then they wont get those 30 minutes back and EVERY minute of the school week has been mapped out to the second. Every day crammed full by some company somewhere that issues binders literally "week 23, day 2"..kids learn x...then move on to "week 23, day 3"..kids learn y...right up until "week x, day z"..standardized test on everything covered a-z. Then keep going next day..

It leaves no time, no space for the joy of learning or natural learning and engagement..

Our Federal Government has a fetish with creating a notion of standardization. They aim for the middle in everything, right down to how they design military equipment (trying to equip the average person). Their involvement in education can only bring this notion of standardization to bear on our children.

Both left and right has done...bush had "No Child Left behind"...

Best approach is to issue RESOURCES to states, schools and teachers...Not dictates...let the teachers on the ground teach and asses.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Byrd

The whole distrust of education issue is a big one. I don't have time right now to add more onto this post, perhaps I will later. It's something we're going to have to solve though and I don't really know how to do it. There's no glory in being an educated middle class or upper middle class worker. There's glory in being Zuckerburg or a Kardashian.

There are many different types of glory. There is always the glory of achievement in or out of education. I would not be a Zuckerberg or a Kardashian. I distrust those who distrust education. Educational achievement s actually neutral. It is what you do with it.

originally posted by: Indigo5
Mostly agree...

You might find this interesting as Google is all about the data..

Google Has Started Hiring More People Who Didn't Go To College
www.businessinsider.com...

Very few companies think like Google...so getting a degree is still a very good idea for economic reasons.

This is because most recruiters at Google give very difficult technical tests. At Googles scale, they're primarily interested in weeding out false positives so they design the tests such that only a few pass them. Google is 100% willing to pass on a good potential employee if it means never getting a bad one. Their recruiting scale is also massive, due to sheer numbers they're willing to give anyone a shot. With the rise of automated tests like hackerrank it costs them very little to give someone the basic weed out test, and then if they pass it extend a formal interview regardless of what's on their resume.

This works similarly for a few other big companies too, but for everyone else... they can't do that. Even at midsized companies, they generally give a test, and then have an engineer on staff look it over to see if the person has potential. Google has the ability to pass on anyone that can't get through the entry exam. Most other companies don't have that luxury, so while they look at anyone who can get through the test, they also have to look at the people who can't, and then try to figure out who can grow into the role.

Worse yet, some smaller companies might not even know what they're looking for (I won't sidetrack this into my rant about the tech hiring scene) and absent any other indicators have to fall back to who does and doesn't have a degree.

originally posted by: crankyoldman
I don't think anyone posted the most laughable aspect of this.

The educational system responsible for teaching potential teachers failed at its ability to teach they to read and write.

Think about this. The system that is so great, so balanced, so perfect in its ability to house children for the majority of their first 18 years isn't good enough at "teaching" to make future teachers.

"Our training program keeps you here for 12 years."
"great, what can you do with the training?"
"what, once you graduate, well you can't work here you won't be smart enough..."

This isn't exactly news. The average adult reading level is 7th grade. This test expects people to be at a 12th grade level to pass. I would bet anything that even those who don't pass the test are above average, they're just not up to where they need to be.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: crankyoldman
I don't think anyone posted the most laughable aspect of this.

The educational system responsible for teaching potential teachers failed at its ability to teach they to read and write.

Too many people here are racing for the lazy ideological rhetoric of teachers suck! Our education system sucks!

Without actually examining the topic.

This test that purported to screen teachers entering the education program...sucked...and a lot of those "tests" do.

Honestly...Why should someone be required to deeply opine on the nuances of Gertrude Stein's life in order to be qualified to teach??

I found a sample question from this test online...Give it a try..

www.ccny.cuny.edu...

I did the first question and used a time-honoured exam technique. I did sciences at university. My first answer was correct. I reckon I could do it all in half the time allocated.

I noticed that you used the word "nuances" which was seen in the first question and hence the entire exercise I presume. IMO the exercise was one of degree level analysis and comprehension. The level of comprehension required a nuanced understanding of language. I made a healthy salary drafting nuanced responses to queries, giving financial advice (some of which was unpleasant). I also drafted carefully worded opinions. My greatest nemesis were those who were in my field but were English majors. Naturally as a Black I had to show them that I was their equal or better on paper. I rose to the challenge and did not have my own pity party as some would think. I also did not benefit from affirmative action.

The exercise that you denigrate is actually a business skill that is necessary for middle managers in most corporations. Even in some of the technical skills like audit there are multiple choice questions that have two very close answers that beg the student to take a highly nuanced view which again lead us back to textural analysis and comprehension.

a reply to: Indigo5

All true. I hope the pendulum swings the other way before we hit the rock bottom in the international ratings!

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
I think standardization is the first mistake. Humans are individual, not standard. You cannot test individuals in a standard manner. How individualized testing would look in this case, i can't tell you. But I suspect it has very little to do with filling in bubbles on paper.

Our Federal Government has a fetish with creating a notion of standardization. They aim for the middle in everything, right down to how they design military equipment (trying to equip the average person). Their involvement in education can only bring this notion of standardization to bear on our children.

It's not feasible to create a custom plan for everyone though. We're trying to do it with health care and look where that's leading us. Meanwhile nations which have adopted more standardization like the UK and Canada are seeing lower costs and actual results.

This has tended to be where private schools shine, they're able to shrink class sizes and tailor lessons to individuals. As class sizes increase, mass production methods work a lot better.

At the end of the day though it all comes down to money. Some states are doing a pretty good job right now, while other states aren't, and some states don't care about their rankings at all because they have local control over the schools and have self determination. But, no one wants to pay more to get every school down to private school class sizes.

originally posted by: Indigo5
This test that purported to screen teachers entering the education program...sucked...and a lot of those "tests" do.

Honestly...Why should someone be required to deeply opine on the nuances of Gertrude Stein's life in order to be qualified to teach??

I found a sample question from this test online...Give it a try..

www.ccny.cuny.edu...

Y'know, those aren't easy questions and there were a couple that I disagreed with (#1, for instance.)

a reply to: Aazadan

Actually the cost of standardisation in the UK is leading to a lot of teaching falsifying results and doing course work. I keep stating that education in the WEST is in big trouble. One of my daughters is ex Oxbridge and teaches and I am hearing reports of the British style of crisis every week. The new British education strategies started when Kenneth Baker went to the Ex- British Caribbean countries to understand why Their educations methods were so successful.


Britain scores higher than the USA but has little to boast about as they too are on the slide.

a reply to: gladtobehere

Always concerned about the minorities and the political correctness. I think this is a shameful development for the teachers community.

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

Then the answer is to build a better test!

originally posted by: thegeneraldisarray

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
Next up - scrapping literacy tests for students.

You'd be surprised (or maybe not) that college professors have gotten flak because they were correcting "African American Vernacular English" which is just a floofy term for what used to be known as "jive."

Can't be oppressing the Basketball-Americans.

When I taught in the UK white teacher old me not to correct the predominantly white kids poor English using a red pen as I would crush their intellect. I continued to highlight every grammatical error in red because:

1) was taught like that.
2) At my science university the whole year was warned that science was also about communication hence our first papers would be return stiff with red ink.

and

3) The world can be a terrible place if you have NO JOb!

I wanted the best for my students and loved poking my fingers in the eyes of conservative idiots!

originally posted by: Indigo5
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Mostly agree...

You might find this interesting as Google is all about the data..

Google Has Started Hiring More People Who Didn't Go To College
www.businessinsider.com...

Very few companies think like Google...so getting a degree is still a very good idea for economic reasons.

First, I'd like to say that again, most fields and jobs can follow the trend as described. AND, there are plenty of brilliant people who never went to college or finished it.

I work with several people in a political office who did not.

But again, first of all some of these people are outliers. There are your Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. There will always be some geniuses that will do amazing things no matter what their background.

Secondly, those people at Google you are mentioning are not as I said making high level policy for let's say governments or NGOs.

Thirdly, even if someone does not go to college and goes all the way to the top, they will have to self-educate extensively. You have to more a lot more than a few discrete fields or fields to make high level decisions and policy.

There are some exceptions in the computing and IT worlds as well. Coding can be learned for example sans college.

originally posted by: Tiger5
a reply to: Aazadan

Actually the cost of standardisation in the UK is leading to a lot of teaching falsifying results and doing course work. I keep stating that education in the WEST is in big trouble. One of my daughters is ex Oxbridge and teaches and I am hearing reports of the British style of crisis every week. The new British education strategies started when Kenneth Baker went to the Ex- British Caribbean countries to understand why Their educations methods were so successful.


Britain scores higher than the USA but has little to boast about as they too are on the slide.

Sorry, I must not have been clear in my analogy. I was referring to a standardization in health care and pointing out the much lower costs as a result.

Standardization has costs, it results in square pegs getting pounded into round holes but at the same time it's also very cost effective and allows society to do more with less.

The US actually has several state models which are working well. Connecticut, Massachusetts, and North Dakota all provide reasonable world class education. Two of those three would rank in the top 10 in the world if scored as their own nation.

We know how to do it right, people just don't want to.