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originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: whyamIhere
originally posted by: LaBTop
This is another factual interesting Miles Kara page, titled : Category: Mystery Plane
www.oredigger61.org...
originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ParasuvO
And yet those crashes tended to be in areas where the ground was significantly harder than Shanksville, and that wreckage wasn't buried in a building like the Pentagon. When a plane hits a hard area, or at low speed it leaves debris scattered over a big area. When it hits soft ground, it tends to bury itself. Flight 93 recovered over 90% of the aircraft from below ground level.
originally posted by: pale5218
originally posted by: LaBTop
This is another factual interesting Miles Kara page, titled : Category: Mystery Plane
www.oredigger61.org...
This is a good site from what I have seen and heard so far. The snippets of audio are extracted from the larger audio files but the author sets up the conversation with leading story and explanation. It's a good way for someone to hear some of the activity and coordination without having to weed through the full audio file. The only caution to provide is these snippets in the story line of his posts are not in particular chronological order.
I also went through the documents in the Miles Kara page but didn't come across anything that jumped out at me. Much of what is in there is audio transcripts of what I have listening to in the tapes from the 911Datasets.
I will say I haven't come across anything that can support Norm Minetas testimony in regards to the aircraft approaching. There is no indication from anyone and no audio that implicates any site, FAA or military, knowing the position of AAL77 before it passes due south of IAD.
I would even suggest that the ZID controllers and the NTMOs at Herndon were suspecting a crash at the location it disappeared from radar or even a continued the flight along the flight plan route. They were looking towards the west and even suggested Chicago could be a target for AAL77.
There was some ambiguity with AAL11's position even after the WTC impact. An inaccurate premise that the first aircraft to hit the WTC was not AAL11 it kept flying south to Washington DC. This however did not have any reports or even estimates passed for positions in relation to DC.
So if Mineta has the correct information, someone was passing these position reports along to Cheney that is not come to light. I'm not sure this testimony that Mineta gave is accurate or factual.
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: Salander
It's fascinating to see so much discussion about an event that did not happen LOL. So much bandwidth in honor of Ol' Hani, Ace Pilot. Cold-blooded killer slits throats of airliner crew, straps on the Big Boeing, and flies a maneuver most line pilots consider to be impossible.
Yes, the Emperor's New Clothes are beautiful, eh?
The whole point here is that the data shows he didn't have to be an ace pilot. There's no reason to believe he executed that turn, dove sharply and leveled off sharply with enough Gs to rip the wings off, yet miraculously kept it a few feet off the ground and then flew the last 5 seconds of the flight, 3/4 of a mile, at that altitude. That's the event that didn't happen. Most pilots say a rookie pilot couldn't do that; I'd be inclined to agree, and there's no reason to believe he did.
He executed the turn, then descended into the Pentagon. None of the data you guys are providing shows otherwise. You're insisting he pulled this Top Gun manuever for no apparent reason. It simply wouldn't be necessary to do this in order to hit the building.
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: pale5218
originally posted by: LaBTop
This is another factual interesting Miles Kara page, titled : Category: Mystery Plane
www.oredigger61.org...
This is a good site from what I have seen and heard so far. The snippets of audio are extracted from the larger audio files but the author sets up the conversation with leading story and explanation. It's a good way for someone to hear some of the activity and coordination without having to weed through the full audio file. The only caution to provide is these snippets in the story line of his posts are not in particular chronological order.
I also went through the documents in the Miles Kara page but didn't come across anything that jumped out at me. Much of what is in there is audio transcripts of what I have listening to in the tapes from the 911Datasets.
I will say I haven't come across anything that can support Norm Minetas testimony in regards to the aircraft approaching. There is no indication from anyone and no audio that implicates any site, FAA or military, knowing the position of AAL77 before it passes due south of IAD.
I would even suggest that the ZID controllers and the NTMOs at Herndon were suspecting a crash at the location it disappeared from radar or even a continued the flight along the flight plan route. They were looking towards the west and even suggested Chicago could be a target for AAL77.
There was some ambiguity with AAL11's position even after the WTC impact. An inaccurate premise that the first aircraft to hit the WTC was not AAL11 it kept flying south to Washington DC. This however did not have any reports or even estimates passed for positions in relation to DC.
So if Mineta has the correct information, someone was passing these position reports along to Cheney that is not come to light. I'm not sure this testimony that Mineta gave is accurate or factual.
It almost sounds like some unforeseen event happened and nobody really knew what the hell was going on. Who'da thunk'it?
originally posted by: Salander
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: Salander
It's fascinating to see so much discussion about an event that did not happen LOL. So much bandwidth in honor of Ol' Hani, Ace Pilot. Cold-blooded killer slits throats of airliner crew, straps on the Big Boeing, and flies a maneuver most line pilots consider to be impossible.
Yes, the Emperor's New Clothes are beautiful, eh?
The whole point here is that the data shows he didn't have to be an ace pilot. There's no reason to believe he executed that turn, dove sharply and leveled off sharply with enough Gs to rip the wings off, yet miraculously kept it a few feet off the ground and then flew the last 5 seconds of the flight, 3/4 of a mile, at that altitude. That's the event that didn't happen. Most pilots say a rookie pilot couldn't do that; I'd be inclined to agree, and there's no reason to believe he did.
He executed the turn, then descended into the Pentagon. None of the data you guys are providing shows otherwise. You're insisting he pulled this Top Gun manuever for no apparent reason. It simply wouldn't be necessary to do this in order to hit the building.
What data shows he didn't have to be an ace pilot? If the comments of his flight instructors counts as "data", he was a really bad pilot, in Cessnas.
The "data" from the FDR, as analyzed by Dennis Cimino, was concocted. According to Cimino, the unit was not assigned an airframe. It is bogus, and the feds had about 5 years to cook the data, since it took them 5 years to respond to the FOIA request. The data was there, but it took them 5 years to send it out. What were they doing in 5 years? Making "data" up, is what it looks like.
The maneuver was impossible, the data was forged, there was no debris at the site consistent with a crashed airliner, numerous eye witnesses observed an airliner go by, but in the wrong flight path to strike the building as it supposedly did. The pentagon, I am sorry to say, is notorious for its mendacity.
All that, the preponderance of the evidence, show the story to be impossible. Why should I believe it?
originally posted by: pale5218
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: pale5218
originally posted by: LaBTop
This is another factual interesting Miles Kara page, titled : Category: Mystery Plane
www.oredigger61.org...
This is a good site from what I have seen and heard so far. The snippets of audio are extracted from the larger audio files but the author sets up the conversation with leading story and explanation. It's a good way for someone to hear some of the activity and coordination without having to weed through the full audio file. The only caution to provide is these snippets in the story line of his posts are not in particular chronological order.
I also went through the documents in the Miles Kara page but didn't come across anything that jumped out at me. Much of what is in there is audio transcripts of what I have listening to in the tapes from the 911Datasets.
I will say I haven't come across anything that can support Norm Minetas testimony in regards to the aircraft approaching. There is no indication from anyone and no audio that implicates any site, FAA or military, knowing the position of AAL77 before it passes due south of IAD.
I would even suggest that the ZID controllers and the NTMOs at Herndon were suspecting a crash at the location it disappeared from radar or even a continued the flight along the flight plan route. They were looking towards the west and even suggested Chicago could be a target for AAL77.
There was some ambiguity with AAL11's position even after the WTC impact. An inaccurate premise that the first aircraft to hit the WTC was not AAL11 it kept flying south to Washington DC. This however did not have any reports or even estimates passed for positions in relation to DC.
So if Mineta has the correct information, someone was passing these position reports along to Cheney that is not come to light. I'm not sure this testimony that Mineta gave is accurate or factual.
It almost sounds like some unforeseen event happened and nobody really knew what the hell was going on. Who'da thunk'it?
EXACTLY!
I listen to the tapes and I have no doubt that what unfolds, at least with the FAA, is that they were reacting to a situation that had no clarity in how to defend.
Many of us have had 16+ years to review, examine, debate, research external information, including what was leading up to and following etc.. And we are not able to say with absolute conviction what happened.
This also pertains to the tapes I heard with regard to the military. The responses, instructions and information also supports the lack of clarity and they were reacting to the same unfolding event.
I can say without any reservation that the FAA was not trained to manage something like this or even close to this. Many of the elements within the event were trained such as a hijack or loss of radar/radio at the same time, a facility or airline OC evacuating or many of the other things but when these things were trained, they were never coupled together to prepare for these occurring at the same time. All of these things happening at pretty much the same time, was not something ever even thought of prior to this day.
Now that being said, is there still unanswered questions for me, yes there are. I am not sure they'll ever come out though.
originally posted by: LaBTop
Could you, pale5218, look into my BOBCAT14, BOBCAT17 and WORD31 (E-4B, Doomsday plane) remarks in this 2009 post of mine in there :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
FAA, Andrews AFB (ADW) Tower flight progress strips: (I took out link, not working)
There are two strips for SWORD31; why, I have no clue.
BOBCAT14 disappears from the screen at UTC 12:37:19 after he got redirected to Washington Central (listen to the mp3), and ordered to change frequency and/or transponder setting to 284.7 . He probably changed his transponder setting and that's why he disappeared from the DCA TRACON radar screen.
BOBCAT17 however, was all the remaining time visible on the DCA TRACON screen, even after he was ordered to change frequency or transponder setting to the same 284.7 setting, much later.
I suppose Washington Central in the mp3 is a military air traffic controller.
We know of the story of Cheney, getting informed of the plane being 20 miles out, 10 miles out, 5 miles out, and then he told an aid that ""the orders still stood"", and ""why should they have changed""; he asked that aid.
So why were the FAA controllers not immediately informed, when the Secret Service was aware minutes in advance, that flight 77 was on course to Washington?
There's no evidence that he executed an air show dive and pulled out of it at the last second and then flew the last 5 seconds 20 feet off the ground.
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: ParasuvO
And yet those crashes tended to be in areas where the ground was significantly harder than Shanksville, and that wreckage wasn't buried in a building like the Pentagon. When a plane hits a hard area, or at low speed it leaves debris scattered over a big area. When it hits soft ground, it tends to bury itself. Flight 93 recovered over 90% of the aircraft from below ground level.
It amazes me how people still think there was no plane, because "there were no pieces of a plane". Then you show them pieces of the plane, and they still say there was no plane because they didn't photograph every single piece. There's pretty much no piece of evidence you could offer to convince some folks, they are hardcore worshipers of the conspiracy theory.
I think this is important to the accounts by the executives Cheney, Mineta etc.. The testimony is 50, 30 10 miles which is not possible based on what is provided as evidence in audio tapes and radar. This could only be accurate if the call to the PEOC came from an unknown source.